GT and misogyny

[Matches Malone]

Krillin and Piccolo are more or less just as helpless against Buu as Videl would have been. They at least could have let her be on the front lines. Hell, Mr.Satan is allowed to be on the front lines despite being completely outclassed by everyone else while Videl, who's stated to be stronger than him (and can manipulate Ki enough to achieve flight), is conveniently kept away from the fighting after a certain point.

Retiring Videl is by far one of the biggest mistakes they could've done with her. I really wish we could've seen her get stronger following her fight in the tournament. I know she wouldn't be much help against the likes of Beerus and Freeza, but it still would've been nice to see that fighting spirit she had early on.

[jjgp1112]

While Videl becoming a character on say, Krillin's level has always been an interesting angle to me, there was really no room for that in the Buu saga, where basically anyone without Saiyan blood served no purpose, save for Mr. Satan, whose unconventional buffoonery was a perfect plot device. It's clear once the tournament started that Toriyama had no idea what to do with the high school stuff and that Videl even had any relevance beyond that point is frankly a miracle.

And beyond that in Super, where the humans do contribute more? Well, considering Krillin's bald again and even Roshi's involved, that's clearly playing more off the nostalgia angle. Old fans aren't exactly clamoring to see a character who existed all for an arc in a largely non-fighting role to jump to the forefront.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

You know Oceanus Shenron starts out like really cool their wish is based on the panties which is funny but being that she's the only woman character of the villains it was lame to have tha associated. Then they had to had her transform into a monster for her to get hit cause apparently women can't take hits.

Still she's my favorite female char in the series but didn't like her writing.

[goku the krump dancer]

You cant say they're afraid to show women getting hit when Videl took one of the most brutal beatings in the entire series. If you're keeping it to just GT, Pan takes her fair lickings as well along with #18 in the Super 17 Arc.

EDIT :

While Videl becoming a character on say, Krillin's level has always been an interesting angle to me, there was really no room for that in the Buu saga, where basically anyone without Saiyan blood served no purpose, save for Mr. Satan, whose unconventional buffoonery was a perfect plot device. It's clear once the tournament started that Toriyama had no idea what to do with the high school stuff and that Videl even had any relevance beyond that point is frankly a miracle.

And beyond that in Super, where the humans do contribute more? Well, considering Krillin's bald again and even Roshi's involved, that's clearly playing more off the nostalgia angle. Old fans aren't exactly clamoring to see a character who existed all for an arc in a largely non-fighting role to jump to the forefront.

I also agree with all of this. The Human fighters coming out of retirement in Super was definitely just nostalgia grabs (hell even #17), though it was cool seeing Krillin have his mini arc of getting his mojo back it still ultimately means nothing when the whole purpose of his inclusion in a major arc is to say "Hey remember this guy? Yup he can still do a roundhouse kick". They did it with the Tournament of Power, then again in the Moro arc and the way this new arc is being set up there's a high chance everyone is gonna get involved again just to throw a punch and kick, then get smacked away but with the Law of Diminishing Returns at play here, I have to ask, When is enough enough in that regard?

[ABED]

Yes about Pan, but Videl is not a fighter on the level of the main characters or even the B-listers. The story didn't go out of its way to keep her out of the fight.

Krillin and Piccolo are more or less just as helpless against Buu as Videl would have been. They at least could have let her be on the front lines. Hell, Mr.Satan is allowed to be on the front lines despite being completely outclassed by everyone else while Videl, who's stated to be stronger than him (and can manipulate Ki enough to achieve flight), is conveniently kept away from the fighting after a certain point.

Plus, the anime briefly let Videl go up against Broly in Movie 10 and she wasn't instantly killed (yes, Broly wasn't at full power, doesn't matter, going by this argument Broly should have insta-killed her with one blow).

Kuririn and Piccolo have the ability to help teach Goten and Trunks. Videl is not only weak in comparison, she's also inexperienced. What value does she bring? Mr. Satan didn't bring strength to the table. He brought his fame and charisma which wasn't useful until it was.

[Soppa Saia People]

You know Oceanus Shenron starts out like really cool their wish is based on the panties which is funny but being that she's the only woman character of the villains it was lame to have tha associated. Then they had to had her transform into a monster for her to get hit cause apparently women can't take hits.

Still she's my favorite female char in the series but didn't like her writing.

out of universe, i kinda love liu xing long, she's voiced by masako katsuki and has a awesome design but in GT she's just kinda...a whole bunch of nothing, which hey is most of the dragons but i dunno...most of them aren't voiced by sailor neptune.

[JulieYBM]

You know Oceanus Shenron starts out like really cool their wish is based on the panties which is funny but being that she's the only woman character of the villains it was lame to have tha associated. Then they had to had her transform into a monster for her to get hit cause apparently women can't take hits.

Still she's my favorite female char in the series but didn't like her writing.

out of universe, i kinda love liu xing long, she's voiced by masako katsuki and has a awesome design but in GT she's just kinda...a whole bunch of nothing, which hey is most of the dragons but i dunno...most of them aren't voiced by sailor neptune.

She reminds me of a bunch of transphobic tropes, too. Just...not a lot of fun to watch.

[Soppa Saia People]

yeah aren't there a lot of jokes about how she's like ashamed of her True Self ? ugh. it's been 6 years so i can't really remember much.

[JulieYBM]

yeah aren't there a lot of jokes about how she's like ashamed of her True Self ? ugh. it's been 6 years so i can't really remember much.

I recently re-watched the episode for this thread, actually. She's ashamed to be born of the wish for panties, she calls her monster form her 'true form' but bare in mind, her preferred form is the feminine form, she's using it to deceive the men of the village and a common transphobic trope is that trans women are deceivers and predators...two things she is portrayed as.

She's stripped of her preferred feminine form twice: once when revealed for being a deceiver and the second in her death. It brings to mind the horror of being outed, humiliated, murdered and then deadnamed, dressed and buried as a man for me. Ugh.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Design wise Oceanus is still my favorite female char just cause Dragon + Woman + the aesthetic is godtier.

Writing wise, well she's a Dragon Ball character.

You cant say they're afraid to show women getting hit when Videl took one of the most brutal beatings in the entire series. If you're keeping it to just GT, Pan takes her fair lickings as well along with #18 in the Super 17 Arc.

I mean like a actual equal fight of a woman vs a man. 18 certainly is the exception there yes and there's a reason a lot of people like 18's overall portrayal in things. Videl...that was just, strange. Like I've never seen a scene like that in the series where it's just drawn out like that. If anything that part in the show is a problem of it itself.

[WittyUsername]

Dragon Ball has never been shy about inflicting damage on its female characters. Bulma is the subject of quite a bit of slapstick at the beginning of the series.

I don’t know why Toei gave the six star dragon a “true form” that she’s ashamed of. My best guess is that they thought it would give her more character if she has a vanity complex.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Well feel free to upload images or posting clips showing this.

[WittyUsername]

Well feel free to upload images or posting clips showing this.

This is the big one that comes to mind.

[Polyphase Avatron]

yeah aren't there a lot of jokes about how she's like ashamed of her True Self ? ugh. it's been 6 years so i can't really remember much.

I recently re-watched the episode for this thread, actually. She's ashamed to be born of the wish for panties, she calls her monster form her 'true form' but bare in mind, her preferred form is the feminine form, she's using it to deceive the men of the village and a common transphobic trope is that trans women are deceivers and predators...two things she is portrayed as.

She's stripped of her preferred feminine form twice: once when revealed for being a deceiver and the second in her death. It brings to mind the horror of being outed, humiliated, murdered and then deadnamed, dressed and buried as a man for me. Ugh.

I thought she was female in both forms, just one of the forms looked like a monster.

[JulieYBM]

yeah aren't there a lot of jokes about how she's like ashamed of her True Self ? ugh. it's been 6 years so i can't really remember much.

I recently re-watched the episode for this thread, actually. She's ashamed to be born of the wish for panties, she calls her monster form her 'true form' but bare in mind, her preferred form is the feminine form, she's using it to deceive the men of the village and a common transphobic trope is that trans women are deceivers and predators...two things she is portrayed as.

She's stripped of her preferred feminine form twice: once when revealed for being a deceiver and the second in her death. It brings to mind the horror of being outed, humiliated, murdered and then deadnamed, dressed and buried as a man for me. Ugh.

I thought she was female in both forms, just one of the forms looked like a monster.

She's voiced Ootomo Ryuuzaburou in that form, as a stark contrast to further other her.

[WittyUsername]

It’s not unheard of for female characters to be voiced by male actors. I don’t think we’re supposed to assume that Liu Xing Long is male.

[KBABZ]

The point is that she has a beautiful form she's comfortable with and an ugly "true" form she very much isn't but is forced to be by the story. Not hard to see why that hasn't aged well.

[JulieYBM]

The point is that she has a beautiful form she's comfortable with and an ugly "true" form she very much isn't but is forced to be by the story. Not hard to see why that hasn't aged well.

Exactly, this just feels like a form of cruelty from Maekawa and the others and I'm not a fan of it. It reminds me a lot of how gender dysphoria makes trans people perceive their bodies and to see this illustrated so starkly by literally depicting a woman's true form as an ugly male monster devoid of beauty super triggering.

[goku the krump dancer]

You cant say they're afraid to show women getting hit when Videl took one of the most brutal beatings in the entire series. If you're keeping it to just GT, Pan takes her fair lickings as well along with #18 in the Super 17 Arc.

I mean like a actual equal fight of a woman vs a man. 18 certainly is the exception there yes and there's a reason a lot of people like 18's overall portrayal in things. Videl...that was just, strange. Like I've never seen a scene like that in the series where it's just drawn out like that. If anything that part in the show is a problem of it itself.

Well in many ways Videl's fight with Spopovich is actually pretty similar to a lot of Vegeta's fights post Saiyan arc but we can focus on his bout with 18 for this comparison.

In both instances the Good Guy starts off on a pretty strong foot, keeping a decent pace and even getting a few good hits in. As the fight goes on though, its becoming more and more apparent that the Bad Guy has been holding back the hold time as the Good Guy becomes more worn down. Turns out none of the Good Guys' offense was all that effective, Videl even twisted Spopovich's neck around with one kick. Ultimately in both scenarios the good guy wound up pretty beaten up, Vegeta had two broken arms and at deaths door, Videl had a black eye, missing teeth and presumably a bunch of bruises all over. Seems pretty fair to me.


Also, Zarbon showed resentment to his monster form as well because it "ruined his beauty" despite the power boost. Male characters can have a vanity complex too.

[Kinokima]

While Videl becoming a character on say, Krillin's level has always been an interesting angle to me, there was really no room for that in the Buu saga, where basically anyone without Saiyan blood served no purpose, save for Mr. Satan, whose unconventional buffoonery was a perfect plot device. It's clear once the tournament started that Toriyama had no idea what to do with the high school stuff and that Videl even had any relevance beyond that point is frankly a miracle.

And beyond that in Super, where the humans do contribute more? Well, considering Krillin's bald again and even Roshi's involved, that's clearly playing more off the nostalgia angle. Old fans aren't exactly clamoring to see a character who existed all for an arc in a largely non-fighting role to jump to the forefront.

I would rather had Videl (and also Goten and Trunks for that matter) than Master Roshi

Master Roshi saying he was letting the young take over suddenly joining battles again doesn’t make sense. Of course I also say this because I just don’t really like his character.