GT and misogyny

[ABED]

and none of that matters in the scheme of things. Fans have a tendency to zero in on stuff that doesn't matter at the end of the day and not enough on the substantive storytelling issues like things that emotionally resonate with actual viewers.

[BWri]

Because the plot tells us that they are newbies that have no idea what Super Saiyan even is.

But they meet someone who does know it. They aren't figuring it out on their own. They were taught.

Second-hand by someone who just got the form. Logic would dictate that Cabba would have more difficulties teaching them than Goku had with Gohan but that's not the case. And that's not even the big problem.

"What, they just know Super Saiyan? That's bad writing. We didn't see them earn it." It's all made up BS transformations.

With good writing this wouldn't be a thing and would be much better than what we got. There's no point in making them newbies if you aren't going to properly build them up. It defeats the purpose.

But they do have meaning. They are learning and growing. Goku is excited because in the short time he knows them, they are growing by leaps and bounds, but still lack refinement. The transformations have meaning for the girls because it shows they are achieving their goals of getting more powerful

Oh great! Then I suppose you wouldn't mind reducing their power rating to Frieza saga levels then? I know it would be irrevelevent to the current arc but as you say it's all about the growth just like it was with Goku and Krillin back in the day. But I suspect that that would not satisfy you since it would mean they are too weak. If so, then your problem is basically the other side of the coin as those you criticize because everyone wants a well written character who grows. We're all just squabbling over what makes sense.

On the net by fans, not by general audiences. If he was really as hated as much as you imply, the film wouldn't have made over 100 million.

Same with the Kefla and Caulifla hate. It's not as overblown as people make it out to be. They are more liked than disliked.

He meticulously calculated Goku's insane rate of growth since the RR arc and created beings that murder him and his friends.

He didn't. He figured Goku's power would top off well before it did due to his age. he didn't even see Goku on Namek or know about the Super Saiyans. He was surprised about that. His creations are as strong as they are because the plot needs them to be.

He definitely did. He calculated that Goku would reach a certain point, yes, but that doesn't mean that cyborgs whom he created to kill Goku wouldn't be much stronger than him. And with his nonchalance at Goku's SSJ transformation and his response, it would seem that sort of growth wasn't totally outside of his calculations. Which makes sense as Goku at the start of Z compared to his peak KKx4 vs Vegeta is about a 60 times increase in half a year. They are as strong as the plot needs them to be, but again the story logic is there so it doesn't feel like it. The thumb of the author isn't so obvious. That's a big difference when it comes to writing.

[DBZAOTA482]

Are fans really that nostalgic for Videl? Chichi makes more sense than Videl. Hell, she trained Goten.

The only way Chi-Chi can be relevant is if she kept up with her training after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai which would be hypocritical because she didn't want Gohan learning martial arts.

At this point Chi-Chi and Videl are in the same position.

It could just be, and hear me out, we don't agree with you.

Under normal circumstances, you'd be right, but it's hard not to notice other aspects of the franchise like GT get called out on the same things Super gets defended for doing. For example, a good number of fans, if not the majority dragged episode of Bardock through the mud for Bardock reaching Ssj easily and cheapening it, yet U6's Saiyans are defended for the exact same thing.

Super has Toriyama's name on it. GT doesn't.

There's your answer.

[Soppa Saia People]

in what world does Super not get hate or crapped on just as much if not more then GT ? people dismissing the entire thing is far more common then people doing everything to defend it.

[SupremeKai25]

Super has Toriyama's name on it. GT doesn't.

There's your answer.

It also has to do with the fact that Super is genuinely good and entertaining while GT is trash to be honest.

As expected from a product written by Toriyama.

[Matches Malone]

It also has to do with the fact that Super is genuinely good and entertaining while GT is trash to be honest. As expected from a product written by Toriyama.

Toriyama also worked on and approved parts of GT. He wasn't as heavily involved with it as he is with Super, but he was involved none the less. I guess you'll now change your opinion about GT knowing it had Toriyama stamp of approval. Just to be clear, as hard as I am on Super, I also don't think GT is a good sequel.

Super has Toriyama's name on it. GT doesn't. There's your answer.

This is very likely the reason, unfortunately.

[SupremeKai25]

It also has to do with the fact that Super is genuinely good and entertaining while GT is trash to be honest. As expected from a product written by Toriyama.

Toriyama also worked on and approved parts of GT. He wasn't as heavily involved with it as he is with Super, but he was involved none the less. I guess you'll now change your opinion about GT knowing it had Toriyama stamp of approval. Just to be clear, as hard as I am on Super, I also don't think GT is a good sequel.

Nope, I never said Toriyama was perfect.

[ABED]

Are fans really that nostalgic for Videl? Chichi makes more sense than Videl. Hell, she trained Goten.

The only way Chi-Chi can be relevant is if she kept up with her training after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai which would be hypocritical because she didn't want Gohan learning martial arts.

At this point Chi-Chi and Videl are in the same position.

It could just be, and hear me out, we don't agree with you.

Under normal circumstances, you'd be right, but it's hard not to notice other aspects of the franchise like GT get called out on the same things Super gets defended for doing. For example, a good number of fans, if not the majority dragged episode of Bardock through the mud for Bardock reaching Ssj easily and cheapening it, yet U6's Saiyans are defended for the exact same thing.

Super has Toriyama's name on it. GT doesn't.

There's your answer.

Parents are often hypocritical and very often they try to dissuade their children from getting in their line of work because they want something better.

[goku the krump dancer]

Also, Zarbon showed resentment to his monster form as well because it "ruined his beauty" despite the power boost. Male characters can have a vanity complex too.

Zarbon's a bit different I feel because, while he does have some resentment to his transformed state, it's not his default state and he assumes it on his own accord (of a sense, Vegeta backs him into a corner).

Thing is though its never really explained why Oceanus chose to have a more humanoid form, I guess it can be implied that they felt that the only we they can be worshipped like a goddess is if they assumed a more beautiful form, he/she didnt really seem all that ashamed of it though. So I don't really see any covert "Anti-Trans" undertones at all. The entire fight was treated like slap stick, the wind blowing Goku's clothes off, them bashing into each other like Beyblades, it all seemed like something that shouldn't have been taken all that seriously. Hell Goku stays in his base form the whole time and its Pan who figured out the Dragon's weakness. Female demons/monsters are often depicted to either envy beautiful human women or dress like them to woe men and steal their souls or whatever.


On another note, when it comes to the Universe 6 Saiyans achieving Super Saiyan, I thought it was expressed that the "Power" itself was in them the whole time, they just didn't have the right level of concentration and emotional trigger to pull it off. Sure its a bit hamfisted but it works for me, seeing as though Universe 6 is the binary to Universe 7.

Kale came off the most unlikable during their initial introduction because the "Nii-san" trope was just so lazily done that it became annoying to watch pretty quickly but like others have said once she gained her confidence, she was more bareable to watch. I do think they were over powered though, as Kefla anyway. Forcing Goku to tap into UI again would imply that she was somewhere around Jiren's level to some degree and given their seemingly low level of understanding of DB's fighting fundamentals, that just seems undeserved. The manga version made more sense in that she was more on Gohan's level.

The difference with New Broly is that him being Super Duper Strong and even the false pretense that his power constantly rises higher and higher have been main stay aspects of his character that it was to be expected, not so much that he's a dude. Plus he's a freak of Nature as an infant he had enough power to kill Nappa and as an Oozaru was stronger than most of the Ginyu Force, that's insane! So it's no wonder that by the time he's in his 40's/50's he'd have enough doormant raw power to compete with the God form Goku and Vegeta though I will admit even typing that made me cringe a little since its still hella OP but atleast it's explained.

No one would get mad if Vados decided to beat up Goku and Vegeta with just a few hits, she's an Angel so she's expected to be able to do that.

I will agree though that 18 gets extra points over Kale and Caulifla mostly because she's a veteran character, so she gets "OG" points, she isn't really a ground breaking character at all .

[WittyUsername]

If we’re comparing Broly to Caulifla and Kale, Broly only went Super Saiyan because of the death of his father, while Caulifla and Kale are able to do it much more easily. Again, I don’t really care that Caulifla and Kale can go Super Saiyan as easily as they do, but I wouldn’t really use Broly as a point of comparison. Goten and Trunks makes a lot more sense.

[ABED]

They got coaching from people with experience who could explain it to them in ways they could understand, he got strong because of a hissy fit.

And if memory serves, didn't Gohan turn Super Saiyan off screen in the manga? In a manga, is it "off panel"?

Forcing Goku to tap into UI again would imply that she was somewhere around Jiren's level to some degree and given their seemingly low level of understanding of DB's fighting fundamentals, that just seems undeserved.

Goku had still gone through Hell during that tournament. He's not fresh, plus they are fused.

[WittyUsername]

They got coaching from people with experience who could explain it to them in ways they could understand, he got strong because of a hissy fit.

And if memory serves, didn't Gohan turn Super Saiyan off screen in the manga? In a manga, is it "off panel"?

Getting strong because of a “hissy fit” is exactly how Goku became a Super Saiyan in the first place, and he was significantly weaker than Broly.

Besides, didn’t Cabba’s coaching more or less boil down to that weird “tingly back” advice?

[ABED]

They got coaching from people with experience who could explain it to them in ways they could understand, he got strong because of a hissy fit.

And if memory serves, didn't Gohan turn Super Saiyan off screen in the manga? In a manga, is it "off panel"?

Getting strong because of a “hissy fit” is exactly how Goku became a Super Saiyan in the first place, and he was significantly weaker than Broly.

Besides, didn’t Cabba’s coaching more or less boil down to that weird “tingly back” advice?

Goku had gone through hell. He was beaten, broken, emotionally and physically drained and now had some asshole kill his best friend in front of him then threaten to kill his son. That transformation was earned and felt cathartic. And more importantly, we care about Kuririn. His death doesn't just mean something to Goku, it means something to us. In Broly, we've just met Paragus and don't care about him. It's a weak attempt at character motivation.

Sure, but aparently that tingly back thing was not something Super made up. i think it comes from Buddhism. And that's how learning often happens - the previous generation originates something then is able to teach the next gen what they've learned.

If so, then your problem is basically the other side of the coin as those you criticize because everyone wants a well written character who grows.

No, what you want isn't good writing. you want consistent lore. Your entire response to my point about the cyborg's being as strong as the plot needed them to be boiled down to math. "he's this many times stronger than he was at this point in the series, so we can surmise..." No. Storytelling isn't math. Apparently a character who we've never met whose greatest creation to that point was a Frankenstein's monster looking robot after having the resources of a worldwide terrorist organisation/private military that not even the world government would touch is able on his own create cyborgs WAY stronger than a warrior of legend who was able to take down the strongest big in the universe.

[MyVisionity]

Female demons/monsters are often depicted to either envy beautiful human women or dress like them to woe men and steal their souls or whatever.

Which unfortunately carries with it a variety of anti-Trans and anti-Women undertones.

[WittyUsername]

They got coaching from people with experience who could explain it to them in ways they could understand, he got strong because of a hissy fit.

And if memory serves, didn't Gohan turn Super Saiyan off screen in the manga? In a manga, is it "off panel"?

Getting strong because of a “hissy fit” is exactly how Goku became a Super Saiyan in the first place, and he was significantly weaker than Broly.

Besides, didn’t Cabba’s coaching more or less boil down to that weird “tingly back” advice?

Goku had gone through hell. He was beaten, broken, emotionally and physically drained and now had some asshole kill his best friend in front of him then threaten to kill his son. That transformation was earned and felt cathartic. And more importantly, we care about Kuririn. His death doesn't just mean something to Goku, it means something to us. In Broly, we've just met Paragus and don't care about him. It's a weak attempt at character motivation.

Sure, but aparently that tingly back thing was not something Super made up. i think it comes from Buddhism.

Obviously, we as the audience wouldn’t care about Paragus even remotely as much as we care about Kuririn, but Broly clearly does care for him. In terms of the in-universe “rules” of becoming a Super Saiyan, Broly’s transformation is pretty inline with how Goku first obtains the form, which would probably help explain why people weren’t mad about that.

[JulieYBM]

Female demons/monsters are often depicted to either envy beautiful human women or dress like them to woe men and steal their souls or whatever.

Which unfortunately carries with it a variety of anti-Trans and anti-Women undertones.

This why we have to Google media to check to see if it hates us before we watch it.

[ABED]

Getting strong because of a “hissy fit” is exactly how Goku became a Super Saiyan in the first place, and he was significantly weaker than Broly.

Besides, didn’t Cabba’s coaching more or less boil down to that weird “tingly back” advice?

Goku had gone through hell. He was beaten, broken, emotionally and physically drained and now had some asshole kill his best friend in front of him then threaten to kill his son. That transformation was earned and felt cathartic. And more importantly, we care about Kuririn. His death doesn't just mean something to Goku, it means something to us. In Broly, we've just met Paragus and don't care about him. It's a weak attempt at character motivation.

Sure, but aparently that tingly back thing was not something Super made up. i think it comes from Buddhism.

Obviously, we as the audience wouldn’t care about Paragus even remotely as much as we care about Kuririn, but Broly clearly does care for him. In terms of the in-universe “rules” of becoming a Super Saiyan, Broly’s transformation is pretty inline with how Goku first obtains the form, which would probably help explain why people weren’t mad about that.

But it continues and he keeps getting stronger all because he's really really really mad.

Second-hand by someone who just got the form. Logic would dictate that Cabba would have more difficulties teaching them than Goku had with Gohan but that's not the case. And that's not even the big problem.

no, second hand would suggest he doesn't have that form himself. He taught someone what he was taught, and logic doesn't dictate what you think it does. Some people are better teachers and some catch on quicker. You keep trying to boil this down to math.

[jjgp1112]

They got coaching from people with experience who could explain it to them in ways they could understand, he got strong because of a hissy fit.

And if memory serves, didn't Gohan turn Super Saiyan off screen in the manga? In a manga, is it "off panel"?

Forcing Goku to tap into UI again would imply that she was somewhere around Jiren's level to some degree and given their seemingly low level of understanding of DB's fighting fundamentals, that just seems undeserved.

Goku had still gone through Hell during that tournament. He's not fresh, plus they are fused.

Nope, Gohan's transformation happens on-panel in the manga...it's just in considerably less dramatic fashion than the anime. He just thinks about stuff that pisses him off and...viola! In the anime, that part is adapted to a scene where that method almost works, but doesn't.

[ABED]

They got coaching from people with experience who could explain it to them in ways they could understand, he got strong because of a hissy fit.

And if memory serves, didn't Gohan turn Super Saiyan off screen in the manga? In a manga, is it "off panel"?

Forcing Goku to tap into UI again would imply that she was somewhere around Jiren's level to some degree and given their seemingly low level of understanding of DB's fighting fundamentals, that just seems undeserved.

Goku had still gone through Hell during that tournament. He's not fresh, plus they are fused.

Nope, Gohan's transformation happens on-panel in the manga...it's just in considerably less dramatic fashion than the anime. He just thinks about stuff that pisses him off and...viola! In the anime, that part is adapted to a scene where that method almost works, but doesn't.

And yet people still have no issue with that.

By claiming stuff that they'll claim didn't happen to characters they like even though it did, and boiling it down to the quality of the writing, it suggests to me they are trying make an objective statement but so much of what we accept in a story is arbitrary. Why is this person so strong? They just are.

[WittyUsername]

Goku had gone through hell. He was beaten, broken, emotionally and physically drained and now had some asshole kill his best friend in front of him then threaten to kill his son. That transformation was earned and felt cathartic. And more importantly, we care about Kuririn. His death doesn't just mean something to Goku, it means something to us. In Broly, we've just met Paragus and don't care about him. It's a weak attempt at character motivation.

Sure, but aparently that tingly back thing was not something Super made up. i think it comes from Buddhism.

Obviously, we as the audience wouldn’t care about Paragus even remotely as much as we care about Kuririn, but Broly clearly does care for him. In terms of the in-universe “rules” of becoming a Super Saiyan, Broly’s transformation is pretty inline with how Goku first obtains the form, which would probably help explain why people weren’t mad about that.

But it continues and he keeps getting stronger all because he's really really really mad.

To be fair, the movie also establishes that Broly is a “mutation” who was already born with an absurd amount of latent power, which was why King Vegeta exiled him.