GT and misogyny

[KBABZ]

Despite what I said about the tingly back thing, the fact is that Super Saiyans had long since been reduced to being a run-of-the-mill power-up, which is why Caulifla and Kale learning it so easily never particularly bothered me.

This is my perspective as well. I remember in the Broly movie where Frieza was like "You mean he can't go Super Saiyan?!" and I was like "Yeah that's a pretty reasonable reaction to that news".

[ABED]

Despite what I said about the tingly back thing, the fact is that Super Saiyans had long since been reduced to being a run-of-the-mill power-up, which is why Caulifla and Kale learning it so easily never particularly bothered me.

This is my perspective as well. I remember in the Broly movie where Frieza was like "You mean he can't go Super Saiyan?!" and I was like "Yeah that's a pretty reasonable reaction to that news".

This made me think of Goku's reaction to Elder Kaioshin telling him he could draw out someone's dormant power. He said something to the effect of, that power isn't that unique. I loved that response. It was funny but also felt honest considering it wasn't special by that point.

[KBABZ]

Despite what I said about the tingly back thing, the fact is that Super Saiyans had long since been reduced to being a run-of-the-mill power-up, which is why Caulifla and Kale learning it so easily never particularly bothered me.

This is my perspective as well. I remember in the Broly movie where Frieza was like "You mean he can't go Super Saiyan?!" and I was like "Yeah that's a pretty reasonable reaction to that news".

This made me think of Goku's reaction to Elder Kaioshin telling him he could draw out someone's dormant power. He said something to the effect of, that power isn't that unique. I loved that response. It was funny but also felt honest considering it wasn't special by that point.

Yeah that had already been done by the Grand Elder before that! Honestly a lot of the Buu Arc is about stuff being comedically trivialized, and that applies to SS1, SS3 (through Gotenks) and Elder Kai's awakening ability. Even the impending extinction of humanity is brushed aside as "we can fix it with the Dragon Balls".

[WittyUsername]

This is my perspective as well. I remember in the Broly movie where Frieza was like "You mean he can't go Super Saiyan?!" and I was like "Yeah that's a pretty reasonable reaction to that news".

This made me think of Goku's reaction to Elder Kaioshin telling him he could draw out someone's dormant power. He said something to the effect of, that power isn't that unique. I loved that response. It was funny but also felt honest considering it wasn't special by that point.

Yeah that had already been done by the Grand Elder before that! Honestly a lot of the Buu Arc is about stuff being comedically trivialized, and that applies to SS1, SS3 (through Gotenks) and Elder Kai's awakening ability. Even the impending extinction of humanity is brushed aside as "we can fix it with the Dragon Balls".

It wasn’t just done with the Grand Elder. It was also done in the Piccolo Daimao arc with the Chōshinsui/Ultra Divine Water.

[PurestEvil]

I like how most of the posts in this discussion has literally nothing to do with GT or misogyny at this point.

[ABED]

In a roundabout way it still is. The point is that Kale and Caulifla getting a transformation that had that point been devalued was not some failing of the narrative to keep SSJ special. The toothpaste was already out of the bottle. Ultimately I think people's issues with it don't boil down to faulty storytelling but that it's women who got it "too easily".This wasn't GT specific though, nor do I think GT is unique in regards to sexism in DB.

[90sDBZ]

With regards to Pan not going Super Saiyan, she wasn't the only one who was held back in favour of Goku taking 100% of the spotlight. Gohan actually had his Mystic form taken off him with no explanation, likely because it was portrayed as being stronger than SS3 Goku in Z.

Uub was actually given a new form but it ultimately amounted to nothing. The fights with Super 17 and Omega Shenron really say it all when it comes to the relevance of anyone not named Goku.

The thing with Pan and Mr Satan didn't strike me as sexist, although I'd need to rewatch it to be sure. It reminds me of a couple of scenes from Cobra Kai were Miguel gets injured and his mother blames Johnny for teaching him karate in the first place. It's just paternal concern.

[ABED]

But mystic Gohan isn't actually a form, it's just Gohan with his power pulled out past his full potential. It's never stated but I took it as Gohan's power atrophied due lack of use.

18's power was necessary to defeat Super 17.

Yes, thank you. And extra points for using Cobra Kai as your example.

[BWri]

"If so, then your problem is basically the other side of the coin as those you criticize because everyone wants a well written character who grows."
No, what you want isn't good writing. you want consistent lore.

Lol. What makes you think these two things are exclusive? I'm not even talking about lore. I'm talking about in-universe logic. The same logic that brought us to these points in the series we're talking about. The universe doesn't have to have consistency with our real world but it needs to have it's own self-contained logic.

Your entire response to my point about the cyborg's being as strong as the plot needed them to be boiled down to math. "he's this many times stronger than he was at this point in the series, so we can surmise..." No. Storytelling isn't math.

That rather ignores the point of everything I said and is quite honestly false. It's a poor strawman if we're honest. I'm talking about narrative consistency and Dragon World logic, comparing the show to itself. I can use math in the point I was making because Gero used math to calculate the total strength the Androids needed to defeat Goku. That component of the show exists and no matter how much you folks want to ignore it. Nothing I said ignores storytelling. But you are so far seeming to glorify bad storytelling and I'm trying to understand why.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Honestly if Goten, Trunks, Kale, Caulifla, Cabba had moments similar to Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, etc I'd have no real issue with them having it.

Though this is more of a criticism of the story at this point. I think a lot of people wanted to like Caulifla in particular just the way it's done in the anime can really be love it or hate.

I in particular cannot stand 95% of the Super anime in particular but you know preferences and all that. I also consider Goten one of the most useless and worthless additions of the series.

Both the boys and the girls suffered from not having proper time to flesh them out as did most characters in Tournament of Power. Both Buu and ToP arcs suffer from too many characters syndrome and not enough time for them all.

A lot of this in the end boils down to if someone visually likes the character's appearance or style. I know a lot of folks hate U6 saiyans because they look soft and childlike, some people find Gotenks annoying cause they are a brat. But then on the flipside a lot like them for their own reasons.

All I can really say is...I think people do want female saiyans that are strong they just need to execute it better next time.

[ABED]

"If so, then your problem is basically the other side of the coin as those you criticize because everyone wants a well written character who grows."
No, what you want isn't good writing. you want consistent lore.

Lol. What makes you think these two things are exclusive? I'm not even talking about lore. I'm talking about in-universe logic. The same logic that brought us to these points in the series we're talking about. The universe doesn't have to have consistency with our real world but it needs to have it's own self-contained logic.

Your entire response to my point about the cyborg's being as strong as the plot needed them to be boiled down to math. "he's this many times stronger than he was at this point in the series, so we can surmise..." No. Storytelling isn't math.

That rather ignores the point of everything I said and is quite honestly false. It's a poor strawman if we're honest. I'm talking about narrative consistency and Dragon World logic, comparing the show to itself. I can use math in the point I was making because Gero used math to calculate the total strength the Androids needed to defeat Goku. That component of the show exists and no matter how much you folks want to ignore it. Nothing I said ignores storytelling. But you are so far seeming to glorify bad storytelling and I'm trying to understand why.

Lore is just exposition, it's not a substitute for story. And you aren't talking about in universe logic, what you want is consistent math. The math in the show is BS. It's not consistent even on its own terms, and it doesn't have to be. You can break those sorts of "rules" when telling a story. And yes, your point does ignore the story. You aren't talking about narrative.

I don't glorify bad storytelling. What you are talking about isn't telling a story, it's math, it's a tabletop RPG where the rules have to be spelled out and consistent. Nothing you are talking about is about characters, their journeys, motivations, theme, etc.

He definitely did. He calculated that Goku would reach a certain point, yes, but that doesn't mean that cyborgs whom he created to kill Goku wouldn't be much stronger than him. And with his nonchalance at Goku's SSJ transformation and his response, it would seem that sort of growth wasn't totally outside of his calculations.

He didn't. The story very specifically has him say that he calculated that Goku wouldn't get much stronger than he was during the fight against Vegeta. I get that he would keep going and the mad scientist in him would push the limits of his creation as far as he could go even if he had gotten them to the point where they could achieve his goal of killing Goku, but that their limit in just a few short years far exceed the greatest big bad in the universe is a huge buy. Even if he did calculate Goku would reach that sort of power, that doesn't mean he has the ability to make something that exceeds it. The audience simply has to buy that he does.

I can use math in the point I was making because Gero used math to calculate the total strength the Androids needed to defeat Goku.

It's BS made up math. When Toriyama created battle powers, he wasn't creating math problems, he was making a dramatic point. He subverts the notion that those numbers have meaning. The enemies place too much importance on the numbers and raw power and not enough on the mystical aspects of ki, and it often costs them.

To bring this back to sexism, fans will try to find fault in anything, going as far as to conveniently forget some aspects and hold it against certain characters for doing essentially the same thing. I don't remember Vegeta getting any sort of flack for his SSJ transformation only being told through dialog, and his reason for turning SSJ is kinda silly when you think about it. He turns Super Saiyan because he got so angry that he couldn't turn Super Saiyan. But sure, being taught the back tingle thing is absurd and unearned.

[MyVisionity]

Paternal concern, yes. "Just" paternal concern, no. For one, because Pan is not a boy. For another, because of all the rest of GT's attitude towards Pan.

Why is Vegeta's SSJ transformation absurd and silly? It was awakened by intense anger. He was at the breaking point physically and mentally. That meets the requirements. I don't think it can be compared to something like a back tingle.

[ABED]

Paternal concern, yes. "Just" paternal concern, no. For one, because Pan is not a boy. For another, because of all the rest of GT's attitude towards Pan.

Why is Vegeta's SSJ transformation absurd and silly? It was awakened by intense anger. He was at the breaking point physically and mentally. That meets the requirements. I don't think it can be compared to something like a back tingle.

His breaking point to turn Super Saiyan is the realization that he won't be able to turn Super Saiyan! He turns super saiyan because of a temper tantrum, like a kid losing their shit in a toy store because their parent won't buy them the toy they want until their whining gets to be too much and the parent gives in.

As to your first point, that's fair, though in and of itself, I don't think paternalism is inherently an issue in the context of parent/child or grandparent/grandchild relationship.

[goku the krump dancer]

If we're harking back to Mr. Satan's remarks about regretting letting Pan get into Martial Arts, I think that argument would hold more weight if Goku or Gohan had said something like that, not him. Mr. Satan showed similar concern for Videl after her beat down in the Tournament and while I don't recall him making any remarks about regret he was definitely worried and justifiably so, that's most likely the first time she had been not only beaten but beaten up so bad she was probably knocking on deaths door and he swore revenge against Spopovich before Gohan made the save with the senzu.

Chichi up until the climax of the Cell arc was completely against Gohan going all in with fighting and preferred that he studied above all else and even though she caved and let him participate, she made Goku promise that their son would focus on studying more afterward.

Pan still participates in most of the fights with the Shadow Dragons and does quite well despite her lack of raw power. She had no place in the fights against the 4, 3 and 1 Star Dragons as they were all equal too or stronger than SS4 Goku and she didnt have any wear near enough strength to make a difference, nothing to do with her sex.

[BWri]

Your entire response to my point about the cyborg's being as strong as the plot needed them to be boiled down to math.

You're obsessing a little too much on this point about math. You've basically ignored everything I've said and dismissed it as "because math". That's fine.

He didn't. The story very specifically has him say that he calculated that Goku wouldn't get much stronger than he was during the fight against Vegeta. I get that he would keep going and the mad scientist in him would push the limits of his creation as far as he could go even if he had gotten them to the point where they could achieve his goal of killing Goku, but that their limit in just a few short years far exceed the greatest big bad in the universe is a huge buy. Even if he did calculate Goku would reach that sort of power, that doesn't mean he has the ability to make something that exceeds it. The audience simply has to buy that he does.

I see that you aren't engaging in good faith so I can't continue to debate that previous point with you but I will provide a photo that proves you wrong. Hopefully this helps you see that your perspective isn't always correct. It helps to come at these topics with an open mind.


i.e. he calculated Goku's potential i.e. he did math equations to figure out the most extreme scenarios.

[BWri]

Honestly if Goten, Trunks, Kale, Caulifla, Cabba had moments similar to Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, etc I'd have no real issue with them having it.

100% this. This is where the bulk of the problem comes from. They just had a bad start thanks to the writing. There is some sexism involved in why they're so but it's not the main focus of the dislike.

All I can really say is...I think people do want female saiyans that are strong they just need to execute it better next time.

The vast majority of people 100% want this. I've gotten my tail end kicked by many a female Super Saiyan online in Xenoverse and I guarantee you that a lot of males were behind many of those avatars.

I also don't think that Kale and Caulifla are done by a long shot. I think those characters will come back and make a much better impression. As a person who initially disliked them ... a lot, I eventually came to enjoy their presence in the ToP towards the end of their run. And Kefla happens to be one of my favorite fusions. I find her to be better than Kale and Caulifla in the anime, but in the manga I like Kale and Caulifla more than Kefla. Weird that. I also like Kefla much more than Gotenks. Gotenks happens to be one of my least favorite characters, though I think his attacks are cool.

[ABED]

That didn't disprove my point. Gero explicitly states that he didn't think Goku would get much stronger and after the transformation takes them by surprise as Goku is much stronger than expected, even if he doesn't think he's strong enough for it to make a difference which is proven false.

Page 43
Gokuh: Were you able to spy on the fight on the planet Namek?
#20: That was unnecessary, by observing your actions through when you fought Vegeta we've completely grasped your abilities
#20: Even if you've gotten stronger since then, because of your age we've calculated that you can't have gotten that much stronger

Page 48
Tenshin-Han: That's an incredible 'ki!' Is that what Super Saiyajin Gokuh is like!?
Gokuh: Both of you stay out of this
Gokuh: They're first goal is me!!
#20: You've gotten a lot stronger
#20: That's an interesting technique, your power level is much higher than we calculated

And using the page you provided, your interpretation is incorrect. He's saying that his most extreme calculation was that Goku didn't progress much further. And as we saw, he may not have been impressed with Goku's battle power in that moment but he miscalculates and 19 is destroyed as a result as he couldn't see the full extent of Vegeta's power or Goku's for that matter. The point Toriyama was making is Gero's calculations were incomplete. Goku is not fighting near his full power against 19. Toriyama is showing us Dr. Gero's hubris.

I keep bringing up the point about math because you keep turning this all into an issue about math, not character arcs or themes or motivation. If I've missed those points, then please show me.

Hopefully this helps you see that your perspective isn't always correct.

But yours is? By open mind it seems what you really mean is that I eventually agree with you, but alas your point about Gero is a misinterpretation of the text. You are provably incorrect.

The fundamental point in all of this is that you just have to buy it. No matter how much exposition and fictional math we still have to buy that a lone mad scientist has the resources to created murder bots in a few short years capable of exceeding the strongest warrior in the universe. What about the fictional math is so much more believable than two female Saiyans being quick to catch on to a form that by this point in the story was not that impressive especially when they were taught by people who knew how to do it?

SupremeKai brought up a good point about the reaction towards Cabba. He turns SSJ but I don't see him get nearly as much flack for it, and it's likely in large part because he's reverential towards Vegeta. They aren't shown to be in conflict or even having Cabba momentarily one up on him. If they looked up to Goku and wanted to learn from him, I think people would still take issue but not as much.

[The Monkey King]

Ultimately I think people's issues with it don't boil down to faulty storytelling but that it's women who got it "too easily".This wasn't GT specific though, nor do I think GT is unique in regards to sexism in DB.

So if you're not a fan of something a female character does that makes you a misogynist??

Let me (very simply) breakdown why people hate the "tingly back" thing.

Think of all the times in Dragon Ball history you have seen a character tap into super saiyan for the first time in their lives.

Now think of one that is as underwhelming, rushed and visually unappealing as Caulifla's was? I guarantee that you can't, there is nothing remotely noteworthy or memorable about it, TOEI couldn't even splash out on some extra animation frames to make the transformation look aesthetic in any way.

IT IS poor story telling, TOEI just wanted to give the new saiyans super saiyan ASAP despite how awkward it looked, fans likely would've been more receptive if their initial transformations happened off screen and they just said "Cabba trained us!" During the ToP and let fans imaginations fill in the blanks.

Not to mention the 'back tingle' retcon has a retroactive effect of making Universe 7 saiyans who had the super saiyan for years/decades look like morons, how could they not think to mention ANYTHING about a back tingle when training other saiyans to attain the form yet Cabba a saiyan who had the form for 2 weeks can train up new super saiyans in 10% of the time?? Yeah okay

Do you not remember the uproar when Freeza caught up with SSJG level power with his infamous "4 months of training" or Trunks' asspull Super Saiyan Rage transformation or SSJB level Android 17 that he attained by punching some poachers, are Dragon Ball fans misandrists now too??

A considerable amount of Dragon Ball fans will always react negatively to poorly executed and flimsily explained power ups but making it look cool usually helps out smooth things over. Do you know how many fans came to like Golden Freeza after his transformation when Goku recruited him for the ToP, the amount of new Android 17 fans that were created after his performance in the ToP, a lot of fans warmed up to Caulifla and Kale when they were given some good fight scenes and went on to fall in love with Kefla.

I rarely write posts this long on Kanzenshuu but seeing people's aversion to 'back tingle super saiyan' be chalked up to 'hating women' was so hilariously reductive I honestly couldn't help myself.

[ABED]

So if you're not a fan of something a female character does that makes you a misogynist??

Not my point. I would not be that reductive, like this trivial issue is some sort of test for whether you hate women. However, I do think many people are willing buy in a given story is arbitrary and there may be some altogether not so good reasons for why we buy the same thing happening to one character and not for another. It's more of a bias, not outright misogyny.

I have thought about the times the characters have reached SSJ for the first time and Vegeta's happens off panel and it comes down to a temper tantrum. Goten and Trunks get it with ease and they don't get nearly as much flack.

The back tingle thing isn't a retcon in the strictest sense as much as it's a deeper explanation of the mechanics that were always inherent in DB World which relies on Eastern religious concepts that Japanese children would understand.

The Freeza thing wasn't really an uproar as much as "oh that's dumb".

Instead of laughing you could attempt to actually understand the point I was making. Instead you laugh at a strawman.

I'll make this very simple, fans may think they are bothered by bad mechanics or explanations of some fictional concept but inconsistencies and bad mechanics are all over the place in DB and no one bats an eye at them. We just buy certain things and have issues with others. It's fine if we're aware of it. For instance, why are we so okay with Trunks and Goten being able to turn SSJ prior to even learning to fly? What anger could they possibly have? Is play fighting really a sufficient explanation for why they are able to tap into something that took others so long and a lot of effort and mental anguish to achieve?

A considerable amount of Dragon Ball fans will always react negatively to poorly executed and flimsily explained power ups but making it look cool usually helps out smooth things over. Do you know how many fans came to like Golden Freeza after his transformation when Goku recruited him for the ToP, the amount of new Android 17 fans that were created after his performance in the ToP, a lot of fans warmed up to Caulifla and Kale when they were given some good fight scenes and went on to fall in love with Kefla.

Wow, it's like you could just say the explanations of made up BS don't really matter and it's really about the story - what they do, why they do it, how they do it, etc.

[jjgp1112]

But like I said, with Goten and Trunks, even though their transformations ARE asspulls, the story even portrays it as such - what makes it somewhat work is that the entire presence of their transformation ability completely undercuts what the audience and characters believe about the transformation. It's a punchline. And then these two brats proceed to treat it like a cool toy. It's trivialization is actually part of the story to function as a joke about the insane power achievements in Dragon Ball.

On top of that, you can buy that they only pulled it off because their fathers had the ability when they conceived them.