GT and misogyny

[Cursed Lemon]

I don't really understand why Kale and Caulifla are being honed in on with regard to this topic's theme when, y'know, Cabba also exists.

Maybe people shouldn't hyper-focus on the transformations at all because, Jesus Christ, that's not the point?

I mean, it kind of is the point. People are attached to the actual SSJ transformation because it represents an emotional investment stemming from a long, meaningful series of events. As I said earlier, no one would've had a problem if the U6 saiyans were already super - hell, this probably would've made them more interesting. And as I also mentioned prior, no matter how many times people want to say "it's a gag", a badly received gag is bad writing by default.

[Majin Buu]

Kuririn and Piccolo have the ability to help teach Goten and Trunks. Videl is not only weak in comparison, she's also inexperienced. What value does she bring? Mr. Satan didn't bring strength to the table. He brought his fame and charisma which wasn't useful until it was.

And neither of them could help teach Videl in a similar fashion why? Unlike Piccolo, Krillin doesn't even do that much; perhaps have Gohan request for him to continue training Videl in ki usage like she started with Gohan? Or perhaps just have her secretly learn by observation based on what she already knows and then surprise everyone later in the story with a surprise save or momentary distraction?

I'm just spitballing ideas here, but I don't buy that the story was so unmalleable that there was absolutely nothing to be done with Videl. Nor do I buy that Toriyama's hands were just so completely tied that he couldn't find any way possible to keep her in the story.

The only thing tying Toriyama's hands with Videl was his lack of imagination.

[KBABZ]

The only thing tying Toriyama's hands with Videl was his lack of imagination.

I think the answer is also tied into how Toriyama handled humans in the wake of the Saiyans, who were pretty much outclassed entirely by Namek. I also think Videl was a bit of The Artefact from the High School opening storyline before the pivot to Buu was made, which meant a lot of standing around worrying for her.

[Majin Buu]

I think the answer is also tied into how Toriyama handled humans in the wake of the Saiyans, who were pretty much outclassed entirely by Namek. I also think Videl was a bit of The Artefact from the High School opening storyline before the pivot to Buu was made, which meant a lot of standing around worrying for her.

True, it just stings more with her cause she's part of a demographic that this series doesn't have the best track record with to begin with (along with Videl simply being a charming character in her own right).

[KBABZ]

I think the answer is also tied into how Toriyama handled humans in the wake of the Saiyans, who were pretty much outclassed entirely by Namek. I also think Videl was a bit of The Artefact from the High School opening storyline before the pivot to Buu was made, which meant a lot of standing around worrying for her.

True, it just stings more with her cause she's part of a demographic that this series doesn't have the best track record with to begin with (along with Videl simply being a charming character in her own right).

Yeah! Gohan isn't really much of a fighter (or at least, not an outgoing one), so to be paired with someone whose entire lifestyle IS fighting was great, especially because meek Gohan has to teach no guff Videl how ki works. This is why I've always been so heartbroken with Videl's post-Z characterization in both GT and Super, because there's not one ounce of that old fighting spirit left (Super in particular basically making her Some Girl).

This is kinda why Ultra Instinct could be a make-or-break situation for the human characters, because if they can do it too it'd be a fantastic way for characters like Videl and Yamcha and Krillin to become more relevant as combatants again.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Even our more prominent female fighter, 18, is still second class compared to her direct 'android' peers.

[WittyUsername]

I think the answer is also tied into how Toriyama handled humans in the wake of the Saiyans, who were pretty much outclassed entirely by Namek. I also think Videl was a bit of The Artefact from the High School opening storyline before the pivot to Buu was made, which meant a lot of standing around worrying for her.

True, it just stings more with her cause she's part of a demographic that this series doesn't have the best track record with to begin with (along with Videl simply being a charming character in her own right).

Yeah! Gohan isn't really much of a fighter (or at least, not an outgoing one), so to be paired with someone whose entire lifestyle IS fighting was great, especially because meek Gohan has to teach no guff Videl how ki works. This is why I've always been so heartbroken with Videl's post-Z characterization in both GT and Super, because there's not one ounce of that old fighting spirit left (Super in particular basically making her Some Girl).

This is kinda why Ultra Instinct could be a make-or-break situation for the human characters, because if they can do it too it'd be a fantastic way for characters like Videl and Yamcha and Krillin to become more relevant as combatants again.

Ultra Instinct should be exclusive to Goku. We don’t need another Super Saiyan situation. I’d like for the Earthlings to continue having some kind of relevance, but that doesn’t mean they should get something that’s supposed to be unique to a specific character.

[ABED]

Kuririn and Piccolo have the ability to help teach Goten and Trunks. Videl is not only weak in comparison, she's also inexperienced. What value does she bring? Mr. Satan didn't bring strength to the table. He brought his fame and charisma which wasn't useful until it was.

And neither of them could help teach Videl in a similar fashion why? Unlike Piccolo, Krillin doesn't even do that much; perhaps have Gohan request for him to continue training Videl in ki usage like she started with Gohan? Or perhaps just have her secretly learn by observation based on what she already knows and then surprise everyone later in the story with a surprise save or momentary distraction?

I'm just spitballing ideas here, but I don't buy that the story was so unmalleable that there was absolutely nothing to be done with Videl. Nor do I buy that Toriyama's hands were just so completely tied that he couldn't find any way possible to keep her in the story.

The only thing tying Toriyama's hands with Videl was his lack of imagination.

They are the kids of two the best fighters in the universe. I would think it obvious how they are different from her. She's the kid of a shyster. Even assuming she continues, what's she gonna contribute against Buu. It's not that she was human that was the issue it's that she was slightly above normal human ability. The story was dealing with gods at that point. She likely wasn't even as strong as Kuririn was at the start of the series. The story would have to bend over backwards to accommodate her.

I guess she can provide a distraction but is being cannon fodder really how you think they should use her? She was a relic of different tone. When the scope of the story gets bigger, she has no place anymore. What skills does she have that allow her to contribute in any meaningful way?

[KBABZ]

Ultra Instinct should be exclusive to Goku. We don’t need another Super Saiyan situation. I’d like for the Earthlings to continue having some kind of relevance, but that doesn’t mean they should get something that’s supposed to be unique to a specific character.

I haven't watched Super so what exactly about UI makes it exclusive to Goku?

[LoganForkHands73]

Ultra Instinct should be exclusive to Goku. We don’t need another Super Saiyan situation. I’d like for the Earthlings to continue having some kind of relevance, but that doesn’t mean they should get something that’s supposed to be unique to a specific character.

I haven't watched Super so what exactly about UI makes it exclusive to Goku?

It's heavily tied to his mentality as a martial artist, though technically, it's never been exclusive to him. The Angels all have it 100% of the time. In the Super manga, Roshi used a pseudo-UI against Jiren, believe it or not.

[ABED]

It's not exclusive to anyone. It's simply a technique that is exceedingly difficult to figure out and even harder to master.

[goku the krump dancer]

Even our more prominent female fighter, 18, is still second class compared to her direct 'android' peers.

Not sure what you mean, up until the Zamasu Arc and The Tournament of Power she was the only reoccurring character from the Android storyline.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Even our more prominent female fighter, 18, is still second class compared to her direct 'android' peers.

Not sure what you mean, up until the Zamasu Arc and The Tournament of Power she was the only reoccurring character from the Android storyline.

Feats. 17 and 16 outclassed her and 18 was delegated to wife role. The point is that even when we do get female characters they are not the top. True equality would be having more balance.

[WittyUsername]

Ultra Instinct should be exclusive to Goku. We don’t need another Super Saiyan situation. I’d like for the Earthlings to continue having some kind of relevance, but that doesn’t mean they should get something that’s supposed to be unique to a specific character.

I haven't watched Super so what exactly about UI makes it exclusive to Goku?

The point of Ultra Instinct is that it’s this legendary technique that even the Gods seek out. Goku being able to learn the technique is treated as a monumental occasion that earns him the respect of the Gods. If every member of the Dragon Team started using it, it would completely devalue it.

[DBZAOTA482]

Kuririn and Piccolo have the ability to help teach Goten and Trunks. Videl is not only weak in comparison, she's also inexperienced. What value does she bring? Mr. Satan didn't bring strength to the table. He brought his fame and charisma which wasn't useful until it was.

And neither of them could help teach Videl in a similar fashion why? Unlike Piccolo, Krillin doesn't even do that much; perhaps have Gohan request for him to continue training Videl in ki usage like she started with Gohan? Or perhaps just have her secretly learn by observation based on what she already knows and then surprise everyone later in the story with a surprise save or momentary distraction?

I'm just spitballing ideas here, but I don't buy that the story was so unmalleable that there was absolutely nothing to be done with Videl. Nor do I buy that Toriyama's hands were just so completely tied that he couldn't find any way possible to keep her in the story.

The only thing tying Toriyama's hands with Videl was his lack of imagination.

The issue with Videl is that she was introduced a little too late into the series. Most of the cast members can destroy planets with ease but she was at best a peak human.

If she was introduced very early on in Dragon Ball, she would've gone places since she was shown to be a prodigy in her own rights.

[goku the krump dancer]

Even our more prominent female fighter, 18, is still second class compared to her direct 'android' peers.

Not sure what you mean, up until the Zamasu Arc and The Tournament of Power she was the only reoccurring character from the Android storyline.

Feats. 17 and 16 outclassed her and 18 was delegated to wife role. The point is that even when we do get female characters they are not the top. True equality would be having more balance.

She might've been the weakest of the 3 but she was just as much of a threat. Plus we never got to see what the power gap between 17 and 18 was really like so its probably negligible at best.

She had several fun moments in the Boo arc as well but It seems like you won't be satisfied until the final boss of a major arc happens to be female. Which... Eh I guess could be interesting in that its aesthetically different but that's all it is, aesthetics. Giving Freeza, Cell and Boo titties and curvy hips isnt gonna make them any more or less interesting than they already are.

[MyVisionity]

She had several fun moments in Boo arc as well but It seems like you won't be satisfied until the final boss of a major arc happens to be female. Which... Eh I guess could be interesting in that its aesthetically different but that's all it is, aesthetics. Giving Freeza, Cell and Boo titties and curvy hips isnt gonna make them any more or less interesting than they already are.

Having a female in a space that has been historically male-dominated, male-centered, and male-identified is far more than simply aesthetics or "titties and curvy hips". Representation isn't bound by how interesting something is or isn't.

[goku the krump dancer]

She had several fun moments in Boo arc as well but It seems like you won't be satisfied until the final boss of a major arc happens to be female. Which... Eh I guess could be interesting in that its aesthetically different but that's all it is, aesthetics. Giving Freeza, Cell and Boo titties and curvy hips isnt gonna make them any more or less interesting than they already are.

Having a female in a space that has been historically male-dominated, male-centered, and male-identified is far more than simply aesthetics or "titties and curvy hips". Representation isn't bound by how interesting something is or isn't.

That sounds like a contradiction, you say having a girl in a guy dominated playing field stands for more than just aesthetics ( I get that) but then you say representation isn't bound by something being interesting? SO if something is there for the sake of being there with no purpose than it might as well not be there at all. If Jiren were changed to Jenny people would still call her a shitty character but I guess it'd be "progressive" because she'd have a vag? Then folks would complain that Toei made a female character strong but boring so they' "obviously must be sexist". There's no way to truly hear the end of it. I'm in the minority that actually likes Jiren btw.

Bulma literally met Goku in the first chapter and has played a decent role in almost every major arc. Dragon Ball has shown that women can kick butt with brains (Bulma) and brawn ( 18, Videl and Pan ). I'm not quite sure what you all are ultimately looking for. Inclusion for the sake of pandering never ends well.

[Kinokima]

The issue with Videl is not that she didn’t become one of the main fighters it is how she was completely diminished

When she was introduced she helped fight crime in between her High School lessons. She meets Gohan and he teaches her to fly. Then both of them enter the tournament and Videl gets horribly beat up by Spopovich. After this Videl’s role in the story is basically over.

In fact after shortly going with Gohan and confirming he was the boy who defeated Cell not her father she determines she can’t keep up and just leaves.

So her role in the story is to get horribly beat up, make Gohan angry, and then to have no role at all. The next thing you know Videl is just a house wife

Here is a girl who fought crime as a High School student but once she marries Gohan the only thing she can be is Gohan’s wife and Pan’s mother. Why not have her be a martial arts teacher like her father or a cop like Krillin?

So no it’s not that Videl isn’t one of the main fighters that is the problem. It’s just that once she marries Gohan, she is Gohan’s wife and nothing more. She is completely diminished as a character. And I do find her treatment sexist.

[goku the krump dancer]

To bring up ABED’s point though, there was really no room for her to do anything other than what she managed to do. The story would have to completely twist itself around in an unnatural way just to accommodate her. Even the more experienced human characters were useless on the battle field in the Boo arc.

There were no subtle hints or anything that eluded to some bigger plan for her that just got dropped because “girls suck”.

Hell even if 18 tagged along instead of Krillin, she either would’ve got spat on anyway or beaten to near death by Fat Boo.But then you miss out on her tournament antics which were pretty fun in their own right.