Can Anyone Give Me Some Clarification on Cell?

[Terra-jin]

@desirecampbell#Trunks can steer: Heh, I suppose that is a much simpler explanation of it. By the way, did I understand your point of view correctly? (couple of posts above)

[Xyex]

But if it did have a dimensional navigator, Trunks would be able to go into the past of his own timeline and change its future. But he said he couldn't do that.

No, he wouldn't. And yes, he did.

Trunks did go into the past of his own timeline. He didn't travel into a seperate timeline on his first trip, he went to his own. But then the timeline split upon his entry. The original proceeded as though he never came back while the new timline was 'born' to accomadate his presence.

The effective focal point of Z time travel is that you can't change the past. By going into the past you split time into two creating a new 'present' that has no written future. But your past remains unchanged.

So yeah, even with a temporal navigator (it wouldn't be dimensional, this is time travel, not dimensional travel, the two things are distinctly seperate) he couldn't force himself to remain in his own timeline after entering the past. He doesn't belong there. He would always force the timeline to split to allow him entry.

But going back to his own time is a different matter. He belongs there. He's part of that history. And as he's not entering the past when returning home he's simply excepted back in because there's no changes being made by his return.

EDIT: Actually, on more thought, I think it is still up for debate. the future ones may have been toying around, but so were the ones in the main timeline. And the Z Senshi were stronger than when they fought them in the other time (Gohan not withstanding). Mainly Vegeta, Piccolo, and Trunks (he should technically have gotten stronger from almost getting killed at the end of the TV special).

Sure, the Z Fighters were stronger in the series timeline than the original. Hence why Vegeta was able to put up such a good fight against 18. But the future Androis were actually withholding power while the ones in the series where simply not being completely serious. No mention is ever made of them holding back any kind of power. They're just not being ruthless in their attacks.

As for Trunks being stronger, that's entirely debatable. Following Namek we never see a 'Zenkai' again aside from Cell coming back with SSJ2 powers. It's debatable if the Zenkais are yielding any kind of increases that matter at all on that power scale. Or, for that matter, if they even occur at all after SSJ is unlocked.

Vegeta's reaction to 18 kicking his ass leads me to believe that one of those two is true. Either the increases are so negligable on their scale of power they're a non factor or they've since ceased (with the advent of SSJ being the most likely cause). Otherwise he'd not have desired to train after getting that Senzu, he'd have just charged right into battle again expecting his new power to be enough to wipe the floor with 18.

[Kid Trunks]

But what I'm saying is that if Trunks can travel to different points in a time line i.e. the main time line, the why doesn't he travel to different points in his own timeline. Basically, he should never be able to return to his own timeline once he's left, by the fact that every time he travels, he creates a new one.

You see? In some cases he travels within a time line, then other times he travels from one time line to another. Theres no way of making sense out it, since its just made up to (sort of) make the story work.

[Terra-jin]

But going back to his own time is a different matter. He belongs there. He's part of that history. And as he's not entering the past when returning home he's simply excepted back in because there's no changes being made by his return.

I don't think it has anything to do with whether he 'belongs there' or not, just whether the time of his arrival is in the future or past of the timeline. If he arrives in the future (as in a point in time that didn't yet happen), no new timeline is created. If he would enter the past (or a point in time that DID already happen) he would create a new timeline.
This is the case when Mirai Trunks #2 travels back to the future. He aims for the year 785, approximately, but in his case Mirai Trunks #1 already wrote that part of the timeline. Hence, Mirai Trunks #2 creates a new future. However, when he does, he should have met himself (arriving at the exact same time as him), meaning that Mirai Trunks #2 doesn't really belong in this new timeline.

@Kid Trunks: Actually, there's a solid set of rules that we can use to determine where Trunks goes, and when he creates a new timeline and when not. I've described it all in my manifesto (second post, second page). The rule about the creation of new timelines can be one of two views, but both cases provide a solid set of rules with which the whole thing CAN make sense It's extremely difficult, but that's why I find this such an intriguing topic

[Xyex]

But what I'm saying is that if Trunks can travel to different points in a time line i.e. the main time line, the why doesn't he travel to different points in his own timeline. Basically, he should never be able to return to his own timeline once he's left, by the fact that every time he travels, he creates a new one.

You see? In some cases he travels within a time line, then other times he travels from one time line to another. Theres no way of making sense out it, since its just made up to (sort of) make the story work.

But that's just it. He does go to his own timeline. But that causes it to split because he's in the past. When he travels back to his own time 1) there aren't any other timelines (can't enter what doesn't exist) and 2) He's not entering the past, he's entering the present, so there's no splitting occuring. He doesn't create a new timeline every time, only when he enters something that already has a set future. If there's no future then there's no paradox and there's no problem.

This is the case when Mirai Trunks #2 travels back to the future. He aims for the year 785, approximately, but in his case Mirai Trunks #1 already wrote that part of the timeline. Hence, Mirai Trunks #2 creates a new future. However, when he does, he should have met himself (arriving at the exact same time as him), meaning that Mirai Trunks #2 doesn't really belong in this new timeline.

No, he wouldn't have met himself. In the original timeline he appeared and things progressed on. The second future Trunks would have tried to arrive at, likely, the same time but since that's already happened he entered the past, not the present, and created a new timeline. This timeline lacked a Trunks (he was arriving before or at the same time as the other) so he just took up place as that timeline's Trunks.

[Onikage725]

@Xyex- I'm not saying a zenkai should have allowed Trunks to take them out. I'm just saying he should technically be a bit stronger, and he went down with ONE hit. And they weren't even trying. How do we know that "half power" and "holding back" aren't the same thing? It isn't like they power up or down in the traditional sense. They seem to be fairly constant, and the main difference is their level of effort. Is there any line in the TV special that would explicitly state a difference during Trunks' last fight with the two of them?

[Terra-jin]

No, he wouldn't have met himself. In the original timeline he appeared and things progressed on. The second future Trunks would have tried to arrive at, likely, the same time but since that's already happened he entered the past, not the present, and created a new timeline. This timeline lacked a Trunks (he was arriving before or at the same time as the other) so he just took up place as that timeline's Trunks.

I don't think that the fourth timeline lacked a Trunks. It was based on T1, just like T3 was based on T2. Since T1 contained a Trunks, there should've been a Trunks-collision

[desirecampbell]

But what I'm saying is that if Trunks can travel to different points in a time line i.e. the main time line, the why doesn't he travel to different points in his own timeline. Basically, he should never be able to return to his own timeline once he's left, by the fact that every time he travels, he creates a new one.
You see? In some cases he travels within a time line, then other times he travels from one time line to another. Theres no way of making sense out it, since its just made up to (sort of) make the story work.

I agree. If Trunks can willingly choose to jump to his own timeilne (as opposed to another one) he would have done so during his second jump to the past.

Trunks tries to go to his own past and change it when he goes and warns Goku, then he goes back to his own timeline. Seeing nothing has changed, he goes back to the past again to help with the androids directly - but he doesn't go back to his own timeline, he goes to the timeline he created last time. If Trunks can willingly steer himself, he would still be trying to go back to his own timeline.

Is this the same theory that says Trunks only creates a new timeline sometimes? First trip back to the past, new timeline, next trip, no?


Again, this is one of the reasons I still promote my theory - where every time jump acts the same, every time: you create a new timeline branching odd from the one you jump into, and you always jump into the one you just came from. Sure, it makes lots of timelines, but it works, and (I think) accounts for all four timelines in the daizenshuu (can't get on Rach's site, anyone have that chart?).

[Xyex]

@Xyex- I'm not saying a zenkai should have allowed Trunks to take them out. I'm just saying he should technically be a bit stronger, and he went down with ONE hit. And they weren't even trying. How do we know that "half power" and "holding back" aren't the same thing? It isn't like they power up or down in the traditional sense. They seem to be fairly constant, and the main difference is their level of effort. Is there any line in the TV special that would explicitly state a difference during Trunks' last fight with the two of them?

A little stronger wouldn't really matter if they're more than twice his power. One hit would down him without issue.

Also, that pounding at the end of the special was before he went back and killed Freeza. Far as we know he didn't fight them again before returning to help in the past.

And what I meant for holding back is that they're not being relentless or ruthless. They're being sporting, giving the Z Fighters chances, etc. But in the future, even at half power, they took the battles seriously. The main difference is just being more laid back, not taking advantage of every single opening, etc.

[Terra-jin]

Seeing nothing has changed...

Nothing could've been changed; as Trunks said, he couldn't directly change his own future through changes made in other timelines.
And about the creation of new timelines: I think it's in no way far-fetched to say that new timelines are only created when someone arrives in the past. Of course, both your theory and mine on this matter can be valid; we have no way of knowing. However, I prefer mine because it allows for fewer timelines.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Seeing nothing has changed

He says himself that he never expected anything to change.

but he doesn't go back to his own timeline, he goes to the timeline he created last time. If Trunks can willingly steer himself, he would still be trying to go back to his own timeline.

No, he said that he would come back to help Goku and co. (in the new timeline that he created) with the fight in three years.

[Xyex]

I don't think that the fourth timeline lacked a Trunks. It was based on T1, just like T3 was based on T2. Since T1 contained a Trunks, there should've been a Trunks-collision.

Except there was no Trunks in TL1 when TL3 Trunks tried to return home. He was either not back yet from the past or arriving at the same time. My bet is on arriving at the same time. Thus, TL1 and TL3 Trunks 'bumped into' each other inside the timestream, upon trying to emerge. TL1 Trunks was then 'let' into TL1 while TL3 Trunks was 'pushed' into TL4. TL4 is a split of TL1 without TL1 Trunks in it thus there's no other Trunks for TL3 Trunks to meet.

I agree. If Trunks can willingly choose to jump to his own timeilne (as opposed to another one) he would have done so during his second jump to the past.

Trunks tries to go to his own past and change it when he goes and warns Goku, then he goes back to his own timeline. Seeing nothing has changed, he goes back to the past again to help with the androids directly - but he doesn't go back to his own timeline, he goes to the timeline he created last time. If Trunks can willingly steer himself, he would still be trying to go back to his own timeline.

Uh... no. Why the hell would he do that? He's going back to help the Z Fighters battle the Androids. He even states, directly, that he thought Goku would make a difference. Which indicates he did not want his own timeline, where the Z Fighters didn't know of the Androids and Goku was dead. He wanted the altered timeline where there was an actual chance of winning against the Androids. So no, he wouldn't (and didn't) try to go to his own timeline, he would (and did) go to the timeline he already forged.

Again, this is one of the reasons I still promote my theory - where every time jump acts the same, every time: you create a new timeline branching odd from the one you jump into, and you always jump into the one you just came from.

This just complicates things more than they need to be. And why would you create another timeline when you're not altering anything?

[desirecampbell]

Seeing nothing has changed...

Nothing could've been changed; as Trunks said, he couldn't directly change his own future through changes made in other timelines.

Yeah, but if he was still trying to change his timeline, he would have tried to go back to his timeline, not the one he created last time.

And about the creation of new timelines: I think it's in no way far-fetched to say that new timelines are only created when someone arrives in the past. Of course, both your theory and mine on this matter can be valid; we have no way of knowing. However, I prefer mine because it allows for fewer timelines.

I prefer mine because it's more constant, and I don't have to try and rationalize why some jumps don't create a new timelne, and others do. Like Trunks' second trip to the past doesn't create a new trimeline off of the one he created already. What's your explanation for that, by the way?

Seeing nothing has changed

He says himself that he never expected anything to change.

but he doesn't go back to his own timeline, he goes to the timeline he created last time. If Trunks can willingly steer himself, he would still be trying to go back to his own timeline.

No, he said that he would come back to help Goku and co. (in the new timeline that he created) with the fight in three years.

I'm still confused on this. He was clearly shocked when he realized he was creating new timelnes, but if he said this too...

Can someone grab the text where he says he knew he wouldn't be changing his timeline?


-edit-
@Xyex, no you're needlessly complicating things with all your conditional timeline creation rules. My theory is two friggin' sentences - how complicated could that be?

[Terra-jin]

Except there was no Trunks in TL1 when TL3 Trunks tried to return home. He was either not back yet from the past or arriving at the same time. My bet is on arriving at the same time. Thus, TL1 and TL3 Trunks 'bumped into' each other inside the timestream, upon trying to emerge. TL1 Trunks was then 'let' into TL1 while TL3 Trunks was 'pushed' into TL4. TL4 is a split of TL1 without TL1 Trunks in it thus there's no other Trunks for TL3 Trunks to meet.

Let's do a little thought-experiment. Suppose Mirai Trunks #2 [MT2] jumped to a time before Mirai Trunks #1 appeared. This way, they don't bump into each-other in the timestream. MT2 is in TL4 a bit earlier than MT1. In this scenario, there's no reason that MT1 doesn't appear.
Because: TL1 is copied into TL4, complete with the normal arrival of MT1. This is consistent with the fact that TL2 was copied into TL3 by Cell, complete with MT1's earlier arrival (now MT2). Similarly, the MT1 we were discussing about should still be around at the time of MT2 arrival. Therefore, we have a third Mirai Trunks that should've met our Mirai.

Oh well, this stuff is just so hard... I can't explain it perfectly - neither can I understand your reasoning perfectly. I guess it's the challenge of conveying my views on this intricate subject that makes these discussions so much fun

[Xyex]

@Xyex, no you're needlessly complicating things with all your conditional timeline creation rules. My theory is two friggin' sentences - how complicated could that be?

Traveling to a point with a future already creates a new timline while traveling to a point without a pre-existent future does not.

My theory is one sentence. How complicated could that be?

[Terra-jin]

Like Trunks' second trip to the past doesn't create a new trimeline off of the one he created already. What's your explanation for that, by the way?

Trunks jumps to the year 767 of the second timeline. The reason that he didn't create a new one is that the year 767 lies in the unwritten future of TL2. It's confusing, because it's the timeline we refer to as The Past, but the year 767 lies in its future, even though that same year in the original timeline lies indeed in the past.

Here's what I've concluded concerning the passing of time on multiple timelines:

Time passes synchronously on all timelines. Any jump resets the present of the target timeline to the time of destination.

When Trunks1 entered the past for the first time, he stayed for a couple of hours. This means that the future, T1, also ran a couple of hours. By the time Trunks1 was ready to return to his fu-ture, a couple of hours had passed there, much like in parallel universes. You could say that T2 ran 20 years slow on T1.
Taking the third timeline into consideration; it ran slow on T2, which in turn ran slow on T1. T4 was created at a couple of hours after Trunks4’s original arrival, going by T3 time.

If a jump arrives at a time that lies in the future, that time becomes the present on that timeline; it’s fast-forwarded if you will. For example, when Trunks travels to the past for the second time and arrives at the year 767, this year becomes the present. However, time on the other time-lines doesn’t also fast-forward three years.

[desirecampbell]

@Xyex, no you're needlessly complicating things with all your conditional timeline creation rules. My theory is two friggin' sentences - how complicated could that be?

Traveling to a point with a future already creates a new timline while traveling to a point without a pre-existent future does not.
My theory is one sentence. How complicated could that be?

How do you decide what timelines don't have a future? There's more you're not explaining.


@Terra-jin, the times goes own at the same speed in all timelines idea is a decent one, but that creates a problem for Trunks' second jump into the past.

Trunks, in your theory, jumps from his future to the past (creating a timeline), then home again, then back to that timeline he created (but not creating a new timeline).

And the explanation as to why he doesn't create a new timeline is because he travels to the 'end' of the timeline - but if time is progressing at the same speed in both timelines while Trunks is back in the future, then only a few months have passed in the past, not three years, there's be nothing for him to travel into. The other idea is that when Trunks jumps back to the future, the new timeline catches up to that point, but then if he went back to the past he'd create a new timeline off of it because a future exists there.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I'm still confused on this. He was clearly shocked when he realized he was creating new timelnes, but if he said this too...

Can someone grab the text where he says he knew he wouldn't be changing his timeline?

He was shocked that so many changes were happening (such as the existence of #16, #19 and #20). Any, it's in chapter 357, when they're on a Yamcha's plane. When Yamcha asks why he would want to come back the past and help them when it wouldn't affect his future at all, he says that his mother thought that it would be right to create a peaceful future without the Jinzôningen (plus, he could learn of the Jinzôningen's weaknesses from watching Goku destroy them).

[Kid Trunks]

I agree. If Trunks can willingly choose to jump to his own timeilne (as opposed to another one) he would have done so during his second jump to the past.

Trunks tries to go to his own past and change it when he goes and warns Goku, then he goes back to his own timeline. Seeing nothing has changed, he goes back to the past again to help with the androids directly - but he doesn't go back to his own timeline, he goes to the timeline he created last time. If Trunks can willingly steer himself, he would still be trying to go back to his own timeline.

Uh... no. Why the hell would he do that? ] He's going back to help the Z Fighters battle the Androids. He even states, directly, that he thought Goku would make a difference. Which indicates he did not want his own timeline, where the Z Fighters didn't know of the Androids and Goku was dead. He wanted the altered timeline where there was an actual chance of winning against the Androids. So no, he wouldn't (and didn't) try to go to his own timeline, he would (and did) go to the timeline he already forged.

That makes no sense. Of course he would have gone to the past in his own timeline if he could. When you say he wants to go back and help the other time line, you mean that going where he went was what he intended to do, right? Thats true. But he only went there because he couldn't go back to the past in his own time line, because if he could, he would have, right. I mean, it would save his own time line, it would bring his father back to life. Why would he pass up that opportunity if it were available to him?

[Terra-jin]

Well, you could indeed say that Trunks travels into nothing at jump #2, but that's just because he enters the future of that timeline. Going by the same analogy, there is "nothing" to create a new timeline from
Yes, when someone arrives in the future, it becomes the present. However, that doesn't mean that all timeline are fastforwarded - only the target timeline is. Proof? Well, the only proof I have, is that I've compared to other options and found those options less likely. This is one of those rules that's open to multiple views. Here are some other views on this rule:

Why doesn’t time pass only in the timeline where the traveler is (that other timelines are put on hold if you will)?
If we are to assume that timelines co-exist as separate planes, the most logical response would be to say that time passes on each of these planes. It wouldn’t just stop according to where the traveler happened to be.

When Trunks arrives at a point in the future, why is time ‘fastforwarded’ to that present? Why doesn’t time (on both timelines) continue to run until the time of arrival?
This would mean that Trunks would always be in a sort of limbo when he jumps. One of his jumps would take as much as two years. It’s clearly evident in Dragonball that Trunks didn’t wait two years in his time-machine before appearing the second time.

If Trunks’ jumps set the present of the target timeline, why aren’t all timelines set to that point in time?
Because in that case, the presents on all timelines would constantly swing between the 760’s and the 780’s. I won’t go into much depth here, but it would probably create one hell of a mess.