Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Sikat]

That would make no sense, it’s more like Vito said. Toei will ignore Moro/Granolah until an anime or movie comes out going over their arcs, which is pretty typical.

[Cipher]

So, anticipating colorized Volume 15 coming out (first full-color Granola panels), I'm thinking about doing a big update to an old DBS for-real, serious power-scaling Tier Maker template I made, and feel like this is basically where I'm at, going so far as to include even various forms and characters at different periods of training for full context.

Feel free to nitpick or let me know if there's anyone I should add! Moving geeeenerally from strongest to weakest left to right in each tier (though for some characters next to each other there isn't much to say one way or the other).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Angels: Grand Priest, Whis (stand in for all other non-trainee angels), Merus
Beerus-ish: Beerus, Granolah, Moro (UI/Earth), UI Goku (just generally; not worth separating out by fights), Moro (Seven-Three), Broly, Jiren, Moro (Full-Power) (A lot of ??? relationships in this tier)
Above CSSB: SSBE Vegeta (Moro arc climax), UI Sign Goku, CSSB Goku (Moro arc climax), SSBE Vegeta (ToP), Saganbo (buffed up on Moro juice)
CSSB: Merged Zamasu, CSSB Goku (Future Trunks/ToP), CSSB Vegeta, Golden Freeza (ToP), Toppo
Super Saiyan Blue: Kefla, Gohan, Goku Black, Hit (ToP), SSB Goku (U6/FT), SSB Vegeta (U6/FT), Golden Freeza ("F"), SSB Goku ("F"), SSB Vegeta ("F")
Super Saiyan God: Kale, #17, Majin Boo (memories restored), Hit (U6), Moro (Namek; just generally; too many ups and downs and too much power-draining here to bother splitting further out), SS God Goku, SS God Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3: Future Trunks
Low SS3 to SS2: Dyspo, Piccolo (Moro arc), Zamasu, Caulifla, Frost
Sub-Super Saiyan 2: Piccolo (U6), Cabba, #18
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel like that's basically it? Is anyone else even important to list?

[ZombieVito]

So, anticipating colorized Volume 15 coming out (first full-color Granola panels), I'm thinking about doing a big update to an old DBS for-real, serious power-scaling Tier Maker template I made, and feel like this is basically where I'm at, going so far as to include even various forms and characters at different periods of training for full context.

Feel free to nitpick or let me know if there's anyone I should add! Moving geeeenerally from strongest to weakest left to right in each tier (though for some characters next to each other there isn't much to say one way or the other).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Angels: Grand Priest, Whis (stand in for all other non-trainee angels), Merus
Beerus-ish: Beerus, Granolah, Moro (UI/Earth), UI Goku (just generally; not worth separating out by fights), Moro (Seven-Three), Broly, Jiren, Moro (Full-Power) (A lot of ??? relationships in this tier)
Above CSSB: SSBE Vegeta (Moro arc climax), UI Sign Goku, CSSB Goku (Moro arc climax), SSBE Vegeta (ToP), Saganbo (buffed up on Moro juice)
CSSB: Merged Zamasu, CSSB Goku (Future Trunks/ToP), CSSB Vegeta, Golden Freeza (ToP), Toppo
Super Saiyan Blue: Kefla, Gohan, Goku Black, Hit (ToP), SSB Goku (U6/FT), SSB Vegeta (U6/FT), Golden Freeza ("F"), SSB Goku ("F"), SSB Vegeta ("F")
Super Saiyan God: Kale, #17, Majin Boo (memories restored), Hit (U6), Moro (Namek; just generally; too many ups and downs and too much power-draining here to bother splitting further out), SS God Goku, SS God Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3: Future Trunks
Low SS3 to SS2: Dyspo, Piccolo (Moro arc), Zamasu, Caulifla, Frost
Sub-Super Saiyan 2: Piccolo (U6), Cabba, #18
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel like that's basically it? Is anyone else even important to list?

SSG seems low for Kale considering Freeza said he would need to take her seriously, Kefla should be CSSB tier. Same with Gohan and Hit.

P.S. Since when SSG is almost as strong as CSSB? 17 should also be CSSB tier.

[Koitsukai]

There's nothing supporting manga 17 is blue tier.

He only fought SS3 Goku, Dyspo (below SS3) and we know he lost horribly to Saganbo. And 7-3 with Moro's magic, who we have no idea how strong he actually was.

[TheSaiyanGod]

.

I agree with most of the list.

If I had to change something, I would probably move Kale to the bottom of the SSB tier considering that despite being reportedly weaker than CSSB tier characters, she was still able to put some pressure against non-serious Golden Freeza and CSSB Goku.

I would also move Kefla and Gohan to the bottom of the CSSB tier, basically the same situation as Kale, they are weaker than CSSB tier characters but are strong enough to be in that tier.

17 being SSG tier seems to me to be a fair position for him, as he doesn't have feats that support putting him above that (considering he wasn't able to defeat Dyspo on his own, but was strong enough to block a punch from Jiren and Goku's statement at the end of ToP suggests that he's in the God realm at the very least). At best maybe SSB tier but still below CSSB

[ZombieVito]

There's nothing supporting manga 17 is blue tier.

He only fought SS3 Goku, Dyspo (below SS3) and we know he lost horribly to Saganbo. And 7-3 with Moro's magic, who we have no idea how strong he actually was.

Since when is SSG or SSB almost as strong as CSSB?

That's like saying a 10 is almost as strong as a 100.

[TobyS]

So, anticipating colorized Volume 15 coming out (first full-color Granola panels), I'm thinking about doing a big update to an old DBS for-real, serious power-scaling Tier Maker template I made, and feel like this is basically where I'm at, going so far as to include even various forms and characters at different periods of training for full context.

Feel free to nitpick or let me know if there's anyone I should add! Moving geeeenerally from strongest to weakest left to right in each tier (though for some characters next to each other there isn't much to say one way or the other).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Angels: Grand Priest, Whis (stand in for all other non-trainee angels), Merus
Beerus-ish: Beerus, Granolah, Moro (UI/Earth), UI Goku (just generally; not worth separating out by fights), Moro (Seven-Three), Broly, Jiren, Moro (Full-Power) (A lot of ??? relationships in this tier)
Above CSSB: SSBE Vegeta (Moro arc climax), UI Sign Goku, CSSB Goku (Moro arc climax), SSBE Vegeta (ToP), Saganbo (buffed up on Moro juice)
CSSB: Merged Zamasu, CSSB Goku (Future Trunks/ToP), CSSB Vegeta, Golden Freeza (ToP), Toppo
Super Saiyan Blue: Kefla, Gohan, Goku Black, Hit (ToP), SSB Goku (U6/FT), SSB Vegeta (U6/FT), Golden Freeza ("F"), SSB Goku ("F"), SSB Vegeta ("F")
Super Saiyan God: Kale, #17, Majin Boo (memories restored), Hit (U6), Moro (Namek; just generally; too many ups and downs and too much power-draining here to bother splitting further out), SS God Goku, SS God Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3: Future Trunks
Low SS3 to SS2: Dyspo, Piccolo (Moro arc), Zamasu, Caulifla, Frost
Sub-Super Saiyan 2: Piccolo (U6), Cabba, #18
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel like that's basically it? Is anyone else even important to list?

So Gohan and Kefla need to be a tier higher at the ToP, she would be enough of a threat to Goku to wear him out enough to not be able to beat Jiren so Gohan used full power and took her off his hands.
Gohan Moro arc should maybe be top of the same tier or even low CSSB.
Kale I guess needs to be SSG, she has to be above SS3 to push even the sandbagging Golden Freeza.
17 Is not necessarily God tier we just know hes above SS2. Gokus statement doesn't make sense, he's not UIO or SSBE level even at most so he must have meant "Us" as the dragon team more generally.
Frost is sub SS2 as well as ss1 Goku wrecked him remember.
Piccolo has to be above SS3 to be able and worth doing combo attacks with an even more improved Gohan, maybe God tier is too high but there's no fucking way he's not above 2. I'd try and find a placement for ToP era Piccolo too.

[Koitsukai]

There's nothing supporting manga 17 is blue tier.

He only fought SS3 Goku, Dyspo (below SS3) and we know he lost horribly to Saganbo. And 7-3 with Moro's magic, who we have no idea how strong he actually was.

Since when is SSG or SSB almost as strong as CSSB?

That's like saying a 10 is almost as strong as a 100.

I'm not sure what you mean or what that does have to do with what I said. 17 never fought a stronger-than-blue character up until the Moro arc.

[pepd]

Spoiler:

So, anticipating colorized Volume 15 coming out (first full-color Granola panels), I'm thinking about doing a big update to an old DBS for-real, serious power-scaling Tier Maker template I made, and feel like this is basically where I'm at, going so far as to include even various forms and characters at different periods of training for full context.

Feel free to nitpick or let me know if there's anyone I should add! Moving geeeenerally from strongest to weakest left to right in each tier (though for some characters next to each other there isn't much to say one way or the other).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Angels: Grand Priest, Whis (stand in for all other non-trainee angels), Merus
Beerus-ish: Beerus, Granolah, Moro (UI/Earth), UI Goku (just generally; not worth separating out by fights), Moro (Seven-Three), Broly, Jiren, Moro (Full-Power) (A lot of ??? relationships in this tier)
Above CSSB: SSBE Vegeta (Moro arc climax), UI Sign Goku, CSSB Goku (Moro arc climax), SSBE Vegeta (ToP), Saganbo (buffed up on Moro juice)
CSSB: Merged Zamasu, CSSB Goku (Future Trunks/ToP), CSSB Vegeta, Golden Freeza (ToP), Toppo
Super Saiyan Blue: Kefla, Gohan, Goku Black, Hit (ToP), SSB Goku (U6/FT), SSB Vegeta (U6/FT), Golden Freeza ("F"), SSB Goku ("F"), SSB Vegeta ("F")
Super Saiyan God: Kale, #17, Majin Boo (memories restored), Hit (U6), Moro (Namek; just generally; too many ups and downs and too much power-draining here to bother splitting further out), SS God Goku, SS God Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3: Future Trunks
Low SS3 to SS2: Dyspo, Piccolo (Moro arc), Zamasu, Caulifla, Frost
Sub-Super Saiyan 2: Piccolo (U6), Cabba, #18
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel like that's basically it? Is anyone else even important to list?

My nitpicks: I think I would put Kefla and Gohan SSG-SSB, Kale SS3-SSG and N17 SS2-SS3

[dragonball0900]

Android 17 is certainly not CSSB tier in any way. Anime, yes. Manga, certainly not.

Android 17 couldn't beat Dyspo right away, their fight took a while off screen. Meanwhile, Kefla easily clowned Dyspo (with Kahseral's help), who couldn't even put up a fight as Kefla calmly walked towards him. This same Kefla is equal to Gohan, who is stated to still be below CSSB Goku and Vegeta.

We know Android 17 should at least be stronger than SSJ3, but that's it. He might be SSG tier, or even slightly above that. But he is NOT near CSSB tier.

Then we have the Moro Saga which has Piccolo performing better feats than Android 17, taking heavier blows, with Saganbo not being able to put him down easily. Given that Android 17 is above SSJ3 tier for sure, and a Moro Saga Android 17 should logically be stronger, then it makes it clear that Piccolo in the Moro Saga should be far stronger than ToP SSJ3 tier at least.

[ZombieVito]

There's nothing supporting manga 17 is blue tier.

He only fought SS3 Goku, Dyspo (below SS3) and we know he lost horribly to Saganbo. And 7-3 with Moro's magic, who we have no idea how strong he actually was.

Since when is SSG or SSB almost as strong as CSSB?

That's like saying a 10 is almost as strong as a 100.

I'm not sure what you mean or what that does have to do with what I said. 17 never fought a stronger-than-blue character up until the Moro arc.

Why are people dancing around Goku flat out saying 17 is almost as strong as him?

I'm really baffled by this. It was a clear cut statement that was never contradicted. It's fact 17 is CSSB tier in both continuities (CSSB just being Blue in the anime).

Why are people ignoring it?

[Koitsukai]

Since when is SSG or SSB almost as strong as CSSB?

That's like saying a 10 is almost as strong as a 100.

I'm not sure what you mean or what that does have to do with what I said. 17 never fought a stronger-than-blue character up until the Moro arc.

Why are people dancing around Goku flat out saying 17 is almost as strong as him?

I'm really baffled by this. It was a clear cut statement that was never contradicted. It's fact 17 is CSSB tier in both continuities (CSSB just being Blue in the anime).

Why are people ignoring it?

Because this is not a novel, it's not enough if you never show it. Specially when what you show it's the opposite.

[Cipher]

If I had to change something, I would probably move Kale to the bottom of the SSB tier considering that despite being reportedly weaker than CSSB tier characters, she was still able to put some pressure against non-serious Golden Freeza and CSSB Goku.

I would also move Kefla and Gohan to the bottom of the CSSB tier, basically the same situation as Kale, they are weaker than CSSB tier characters but are strong enough to be in that tier.

17 being SSG tier seems to me to be a fair position for him, as he doesn't have feats that support putting him above that (considering he wasn't able to defeat Dyspo on his own, but was strong enough to block a punch from Jiren and Goku's statement at the end of ToP suggests that he's in the God realm at the very least). At best maybe SSB tier but still below CSSB

I could definitely see putting Kale on the bottom of SSB, and Kefla and Gohan on the bottom of CSSB, respectively. Either the top of the lower tier or bottom of the higher one feels fair to me, and it might be a slightly better representation to bump them up.

#17 I'm tempted on review to move somewhere into Blue too. It's more a case of SSG being their lower end for him, but given Goku's pretty direct comment at the end, it's probably more fair to slot him somewhere into the next tier up.

Why are people dancing around Goku flat out saying 17 is almost as strong as him?

I'm really baffled by this. It was a clear cut statement that was never contradicted. It's fact 17 is CSSB tier in both continuities (CSSB just being Blue in the anime).

Why are people ignoring it?

"About as strong as us" is still a pretty big window given all we ever see #17 do (especially since Toyotaro elects to cap off their skirmish with him making SS3 Goku panic--implying he's stronger but a more conservative choice than the anime), and I could see it as being anywhere from stronger-than-SSG (kind of the threshold for "is a big deal" in DBS) on up. As noted above though, I am tempted to bump him into at least low Blue though. And I do tend to value statements more than depiction, as the latter can vary but the former is usually a clear case of trying to lay out where things stand. It's the same reason I put SSBE Vegeta by the end of the Moro arc a notch above UI Sign Goku; not necessarily enormously convincing in depiction, but that's what the dialogue gives us, so who am I to judge?

I know some see the inconclusiveness of Dyspo vs. #17 as a knock against ranking him higher too, and it might indeed be. But we also don't see what that fight looks like at all/what Dyspo gets up to; all we know is that #17 comes away having completely had the upper hand, as Dyspo is too run down to do much contributing afterward.

Plenty of dialogue is expended upon #17 being remarkably strong (Kuririn, Piccolo, and Dende all get lines about it before Goku's at the end), so I do think it's okay to read the thrust of the story as placing him higher than his opportunities to actually show off during the course of events might suggest. CSSB? Probably not for me, and firmly weaker than Gohan. But SSB tier ... somewhere? Yeah, that feels fair. Maybe toward the "F" characters?

Frost is sub SS2 as well as ss1 Goku wrecked him remember.

I should just find a different name for that tier, since my mental image of Frost is "is around Perfect Cell." Strong enough for U6 Piccolo to have no chance against, but someone Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta can deal with (so, plus or minus Cell depending on whether you think Goku and Vegeta are notably stronger compared to their Cell Games selves or Frost is just a bit weaker).

I guess now that I think about nitpicking some of the lower-tiered characters more, depending on how seriously you think Super Saiyan Vegeta takes Cabba, there's argument for Super Saiyan Cabba being stronger than Frost too. I don't have a problem with all of the U6 Saiyans starting off stronger as Super Saiyans than their U7 counterparts did, as the race has survived to get stronger in general and they probably have more of an advantage going in, so to speak. On that note, at least Caulifla is directly stated to be notably stronger than Goku first was as a Super Saiyan, by Freeza, and that's a day or so after she's first transformed. That said, Frost tearing through U9 at the ToP kind of reads to me like the thrust is that he's stronger than Cabba... who seems to be the weakest U6 Super Saiyan? You can also pretty easily read Frost as going all out power-wise at the ToP in a way he never got to at the U6-U7 tournament. I don't know; open to more thoughts on those two.

Maybe I should just call that the Cell-SS3 tier. Big range, but the amount of relevant characters who fall into it in DBS are pretty few. Then the last tier would be sub-Cell, just as a benchmark. (Wouldn't even think to have included #18 normally, but I know a not unsubstantial amount of people seem to think she's more or less even with #17 by the Moro arc, which I find ... completely un-backed-up, but figured she was controversial enough to warrant a spot.)

[TheSaiyanGod]

The best argument I can think of for putting 17 higher is the fact that he easily defeated 73 with Moro's copied powers (assuming he also got the same strength as Moro).

This Moro clearly cannot be post Time Skip Moro, as at this point he was UI Omen level and far above any other Earth warrior. So the last version of Moro we saw (young) is after he absorbed Namek's energy, and at that point it wasn't clear if he was stronger than CSSB Goku / Vegeta. Before that, they both mentioned that they would be able to defeat him in a one-on-one fight with full power, so we don't know whether his power up with Namek's energy would be enough to overcome them both (but nothing is mentioned about that). So assuming this Moro is weaker than CSSB, but stronger than SSB, then maybe 17 defeating 73 would be a feat in his favor.

But I wouldn't put him on that level judging only by his past feats. I'm pretty sure 17 wasn't almost as strong as SSBE Vegeta, so Goku's statement has a big window that 17 can fit into. You can say that at the very least he is SSG tier for Goku to consider him that strong, but I would put him at best in the SSB tier (pre training Gohan is said to be the strongest fighter on Earth, so above 17, and he was still weaker than both CSSB Goku and Vegeta)

[Cipher]

The best argument I can think of for putting 17 higher is the fact that he easily defeated 73 with Moro's copied powers (assuming he also got the same strength as Moro).

This Moro clearly cannot be post Time Skip Moro, as at this point he was UI Omen level and far above any other Earth warrior. So the last version of Moro we saw (young) is after he absorbed Namek's energy, and at that point it wasn't clear if he was stronger than CSSB Goku / Vegeta. Before that, they both mentioned that they would be able to defeat him in a one-on-one fight with full power, so we don't know whether his power up with Namek's energy would be enough to overcome them both (but nothing is mentioned about that). So assuming this Moro is weaker than CSSB, but stronger than SSB, then maybe 17 defeating 73 would be a feat in his favor.

I'm not tempted to read into his Seven-Three KO in general, as how his copy ability works outside of offense is vague at best, implied to be non-existent at worst. He copies the power of offensive techniques, but #17 just flying in and kicking him in the face while being immune to the energy drain may or may not mean anything substantial strength-wise.

Mostly what #17 has going for him is dialogue, which, yeah, is kind of this big ambiguous SSG-on-up window, but I think low/early Blue is probably a fair middle ground, and enough to warrant the statements about him while also placing him clearly below Gohan and the very strongest handful of fighters at the ToP.

[Jack Bz]

I think there's an argument to be made that Moro (Seven-Three), Broly, Jiren, Moro (Full-Power) could all be bumped down to above CSSB tier. Definitely full power Moro, who is definitely a lot closer to UI Sign than he is to UI.

When Moro 7-3 breaks his own arm just trying to attack a UI Goku who is standing still, that demonstrates a huge gulf of difference to me. Like I think the difference is a lot bigger than it is between CSSB Goku (top) and Saganbo, who are on different tiers here. I think the difference between UI Goku and Moro 7-3 is probably bigger than the difference between Moro 7-3 and Gohan tbh. At least Gohan didn't hurt himself attacking Moro.

That said, I largely agree with all of it, and the ordering within the tiers is solid to me.

[dragonball0900]

The best argument I can think of for putting 17 higher is the fact that he easily defeated 73 with Moro's copied powers (assuming he also got the same strength as Moro).

This Moro clearly cannot be post Time Skip Moro, as at this point he was UI Omen level and far above any other Earth warrior. So the last version of Moro we saw (young) is after he absorbed Namek's energy, and at that point it wasn't clear if he was stronger than CSSB Goku / Vegeta. Before that, they both mentioned that they would be able to defeat him in a one-on-one fight with full power, so we don't know whether his power up with Namek's energy would be enough to overcome them both (but nothing is mentioned about that). So assuming this Moro is weaker than CSSB, but stronger than SSB, then maybe 17 defeating 73 would be a feat in his favor.

But I wouldn't put him on that level judging only by his past feats. I'm pretty sure 17 wasn't almost as strong as SSBE Vegeta, so Goku's statement has a big window that 17 can fit into. You can say that at the very least he is SSG tier for Goku to consider him that strong, but I would put him at best in the SSB tier (pre training Gohan is said to be the strongest fighter on Earth, so above 17, and he was still weaker than both CSSB Goku and Vegeta)

Just letting you know, the 73 that 17 stomped is certainly not as strong as Moro from Namek. That was just 73 with his regular strength.

I made a topic about this not long ago and based on the story (and the way me and others concluded), 73 only used Moro's magic and not his power. Remember that Moro stated that he didn't like 73 copying his powers all the time (which means 73 had been copying Moro's powers for quite some time even after Namek), and it was also implied in the story that 73 had already copied Current Prime Moro's powers. Based on that logic, the 73 that 17 fought with would have Current Prime Moro's abilities, since it wouldn't make sense for 73 to use a version of Moro that is far weaker (which would be Namek Moro) than his current one, especially since 73 kept copying Moro's abilities even after those events. It is clear from the fight with 17 that he only had Moro's magic and not his power level.

Then when Moro turns into Moro 73, he reveals (as if it was something new) that he had let 73 not just copy his magic, but also his power level, which shocked Goku, Piccolo and Gohan. This detail clearly shows that 73 had only been using Moro's magic all this time, and not his power level.

[Cipher]

I think there's an argument to be made that Moro (Seven-Three), Broly, Jiren, Moro (Full-Power) could all be bumped down to above CSSB tier. Definitely full power Moro, who is definitely a lot closer to UI Sign than he is to UI.

The issue I see there is that there's too much dialogue ambiguity among everyone there in relation to Beerus (and consequently to each other) to be able to comfortably do anything but group them into one "really strong!" tier together. Is Broly stronger than Beerus? Is Jiren? Is Moro stronger than all of them or are we meant to read that another way? Is Beerus confident he can beat Moro because of raw strength, or a technique? Was Goku wrong? Etc., etc.

Maybe one day we'll get something that allows for more confident sorting there, but in the meantime I feel like I have to keep them all together and just put Beerus at the front with a million asterisks behind him.

That's really just the "Has been compared to Beerus or other characters who have been compared to Beerus" tier--the one thing everyone on it has in common is that they're at least outside the realm of any other characters' non-UI, non-fused state. For now.

I could see bumping full-power, pre-Seven-Three Moro down, but as I think the kind of "Wait, how do these guys all relate to each other?" ambiguity could be said to start with him, that's where I made the cut.

...Looking at it now, I should have Hit (U6) up a little higher too. Either low SSB or at least above Boo. He fails to stop a U6-arc SSB Goku, but it isn't terribly clear that he couldn't have gotten his last-minute full-power gambit to work on "F" SSB Goku. Maybe the bottom of that tier as a compromise.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Just letting you know, the 73 that 17 stomped is certainly not as strong as Moro from Namek. That was just 73 with his regular strength.

I made a topic about this not long ago and based on the story (and the way me and others concluded), 73 only used Moro's magic and not his power. Remember that Moro stated that he didn't like 73 copying his powers all the time (which means 73 had been copying Moro's powers for quite some time even after Namek), and it was also implied in the story that 73 had already copied Current Prime Moro's powers. Based on that logic, the 73 that 17 fought with would have Current Prime Moro's abilities, since it wouldn't make sense for 73 to use a version of Moro that is far weaker (which would be Namek Moro) than his current one, especially since 73 kept copying Moro's abilities even after those events. It is clear from the fight with 17 that he only had Moro's magic and not his power level.

Then when Moro turns into Moro 73, he reveals (as if it was something new) that he had let 73 not just copy his magic, but also his power level, which shocked Goku, Piccolo and Gohan. This detail clearly shows that 73 had only been using Moro's magic all this time, and not his power level.

Hm...sounds fair I guess. I remember a thread like this but not exactly the content or the arguments used, but what you said makes sense.

In that case then, I think we're left with the ambiguity of putting him somewhere between SSG and SSB tier. In any case, I think he can reasonably fit both, considering the arguments used by both sides. But definitely below CSSB level characters

[ZombieVito]

I'm not sure what you mean or what that does have to do with what I said. 17 never fought a stronger-than-blue character up until the Moro arc.

Why are people dancing around Goku flat out saying 17 is almost as strong as him?

I'm really baffled by this. It was a clear cut statement that was never contradicted. It's fact 17 is CSSB tier in both continuities (CSSB just being Blue in the anime).

Why are people ignoring it?

Because this is not a novel, it's not enough if you never show it. Specially when what you show it's the opposite.

I'm getting Battle of Gods "Base Goku can't be weaker than Freeza" vibes with this.

If the manga/show states something and it's not contradicted then it's fact. Simple as that.

By putting 17 in SSG tier you practically are saying "SS1 is almost as strong as a SS3" going by Goku's words. That's ridiculous.