Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Aizamasu]

Since when is SSG or SSB almost as strong as CSSB?

That's like saying a 10 is almost as strong as a 100.

I'm not sure what you mean or what that does have to do with what I said. 17 never fought a stronger-than-blue character up until the Moro arc.

Why are people dancing around Goku flat out saying 17 is almost as strong as him?

I'm really baffled by this. It was a clear cut statement that was never contradicted. It's fact 17 is CSSB tier in both continuities (CSSB just being Blue in the anime).

Why are people ignoring it?

We know that CSSB Goku>Gohan>17. It would be weird if 17 was really close to Goku in power when Gohan has been stated to be stronger than 17 and Goku has been shown to be stronger than Gohan.

And how would Goku even know 17 is almost as strong as him? Goku can’t sense his power and he only fought against 17 in SS3. 17 didn’t fight any Blue tier opponents during ToP other than getting easily beaten by Jiren. Goku only knew that 17 won ToP so he could just be thinking that 17 is as strong as him since he was the winner.

[Koitsukai]

I think it makes much more sense to believe that Goku with "he's almost as strong as we are" was using an inclusive "we", meaning the whole team, referring to the fact that the last time we met 17 he was stronger than the most basic form of SS(and not by a wide margin, mind you), and when SS got its first enhancement, 17 was left in the dust for good... and now 17 shows up his face again after living in a forest and he is stronger than any non-fused character from Z... if he's god level then he soloes Z now, when before he was weaker than 1st form Cell.
Instead of believing 17 is up there with the protagonists, that he caught up with Goku and Vegeta yet never shown like at all, not even hinted at like having him defeat or stalemate off-screen with Toppo. No, he did so against the much weaker Dyspo who was mostly tired.

Plus, you know, 17 has no ki, so any guess from Goku HAS to be based on what he saw of his performance... against non-blue characters.
How all that gets interpreted as being blue level based on a vague statement and literally no feats beats me.

[Yuji]

I think it makes much more sense to believe that Goku with "he's almost as strong as we are" was using an inclusive "we", meaning the whole team, referring to the fact that the last time we met 17 he was stronger than the most basic form of SS(and not by a wide margin, mind you), and when SS got its first enhancement, 17 was left in the dust for good... and now 17 shows up his face again after living in a forest and he is stronger than any non-fused character from Z... if he's god level then he soloes Z now, when before he was weaker than 1st form Cell.
Instead of believing 17 is up there with the protagonists, that he caught up with Goku and Vegeta yet never shown like at all, not even hinted at like having him defeat or stalemate off-screen with Toppo. No, he did so against the much weaker Dyspo who was mostly tired.

Plus, you know, 17 has no ki, so any guess from Goku HAS to be based on what he saw of his performance... against non-blue characters.
How all that gets interpreted as being blue level based on a vague statement and literally no feats beats me.

I agree with this interpretation. It's a very vague line and Goku seems to be comparing him to the Dragon Team in general and not to himself and Vegeta specifically. By on-screen performance, #17 was struggling with SS3 Goku (who was smiling and enjoying the fight the entire time until #17 charged up a stronger attack), and is repeatedly compared to #18's power set either directly or indirectly.

[Cipher]

I agree with this interpretation. It's a very vague line and Goku seems to be comparing him to the Dragon Team in general and not to himself and Vegeta specifically. By on-screen performance, #17 was struggling with SS3 Goku (who was smiling and enjoying the fight the entire time until #17 charged up a stronger attack), and is repeatedly compared to #18's power set either directly or indirectly.

This is a reading I definitely don’t buy, considering that same team consisted half of people far, far weaker than its top five, and the note about #17 comes just off of Goku and Vegeta discussing how powerful Jiren was, with Goku noting that it wasn’t just Jiren who was impressive.

It’s obviously meant to be in reference to Goku and Vegeta themselves, but it’s a flexible ball park. Anything stronger than God is still a massively rare occurrence.

Kuririn, Dende and Piccolo all pay lip service to #17’s surprising strength earlier too. The story doesn’t give him much room to show off once the action starts, but it’s pretty clear he’s meant to be up there. Just a matter of “how” up there you want to read it, and we know contextually he’s weaker than Gohan, Vegeta and Goku, and then by proxy Freeza if you believe Goku’s assessment after bringing him back from Hell.

As I said earlier though, I think between God and Blue or just barely into Blue territory fits pretty well with both what we see and are told. Even in my first posting of my tiers last page, I had him above SSG itself, while in the SSG-labeled tier (and I could definitely see the bump up to Blue).

[Yuji]

I agree with this interpretation. It's a very vague line and Goku seems to be comparing him to the Dragon Team in general and not to himself and Vegeta specifically. By on-screen performance, #17 was struggling with SS3 Goku (who was smiling and enjoying the fight the entire time until #17 charged up a stronger attack), and is repeatedly compared to #18's power set either directly or indirectly.

This is a reading I definitely don’t buy, considering that same team consisted half of people far, far weaker than its top five, and the note about #17 comes just off of Goku and Vegeta discussing how powerful Jiren was, with Goku noting that it wasn’t just Jiren who was impressive.

It’s obviously meant to be in reference to Goku and Vegeta themselves, but it’s a flexible ball park. Anything stronger than God is still a massively rare occurrence.

Kuririn, Dende and Piccolo all pay lip service to #17’s surprising strength earlier too. The story doesn’t give him much room to show off once the action starts, but it’s pretty clear he’s meant to be up there. Just a matter of “how” up there you want to read it, and we know contextually he’s weaker than Gohan, Vegeta and Goku, and then by proxy Freeza if you believe Goku’s assessment after bringing him back from Hell.

As I said earlier though, I think between God and Blue or just barely into Blue territory fits pretty well with both what we see and are told though.

Considering #17 and #18 are compared to each other in terms of strength by Moro and his goons, I have a hard time believing #17 would become stronger than God by conventional means, because it would by proxy place #18 at that strength level as well. The manga has made a big effort to keep God-tier strength on a high pedestal, so I don't think it's a coincidence Goku stopped the fight at SS3 - the implication in the fight itself is that #17 is somewhere above SS3, but between 3 and God there is still a huge enough chasm. Even at that strength level, #17 would have surpassed two Super Saiyan forms (more, if you count the superfluous Grade forms) above the basic SS Goku and Vegeta had used against the artificial humans, as well as Piccolo who beforehand was equivalent or arguably stronger by the end of the arc. It does just seem to me like a generic "wow look how strong he's gotten!" throwaway line.

[Koitsukai]

But there's nothing impressive in 17's performance, for Godlike standards at least. He couldn't even defeat Dyspo
and literally hid under a rock when blue hitters where stepping up, and never attempted to help when Jiren proved to be too much at the end. Like he had nothing else to offer but just being there.

Plus in the Moro arc he is lumped in with the weaker people of the group even though he is said to have become stronger than before.

[TobyS]

The best argument I can think of for putting 17 higher is the fact that he easily defeated 73 with Moro's copied powers (assuming he also got the same strength as Moro).

This Moro clearly cannot be post Time Skip Moro, as at this point he was UI Omen level and far above any other Earth warrior. So the last version of Moro we saw (young) is after he absorbed Namek's energy, and at that point it wasn't clear if he was stronger than CSSB Goku / Vegeta. Before that, they both mentioned that they would be able to defeat him in a one-on-one fight with full power, so we don't know whether his power up with Namek's energy would be enough to overcome them both (but nothing is mentioned about that). So assuming this Moro is weaker than CSSB, but stronger than SSB, then maybe 17 defeating 73 would be a feat in his favor.

I'm not tempted to read into his Seven-Three KO in general, as how his copy ability works outside of offense is vague at best, implied to be non-existent at worst. He copies the power of offensive techniques, but #17 just flying in and kicking him in the face while being immune to the energy drain may or may not mean anything substantial strength-wise.

Mostly what #17 has going for him is dialogue, which, yeah, is kind of this big ambiguous SSG-on-up window, but I think low/early Blue is probably a fair middle ground, and enough to warrant the statements about him while also placing him clearly below Gohan and the very strongest handful of fighters at the ToP.

I'm still not convinced Goku's "Us" isn't broader as well as the range of power he'd be referring to even if it wasn't.
SS3 Goku's reaction to 17's power ball is sketchy too. He can't sense the power behind 17's attack. He's more reacting to 17 clearly showing he's fucking serious about having a big all out fight so Goku calls time out. If he was actually frightened you think he'd go God or Blue for his own protection before trying to de-escalate the fight. It's obvious to me it was more about getting a funny Gotenks esque SS3 face out of Goku then it was to scale up 17's power.

Vs. Dyspo lacks any frame of reference too. He seems to be contextually implied to be the next biggest deal after Toppo but there could be a real big drop off from 2 to 3 as there is from one to two. Hell there's another massive jump from 3 to 4, Khersal who is Roshi tier beatable (yes I know it's psudeo UI but he's close enough to hit him out in a way he couldn't do to Jiren)

To make matters more complicated we don't know if he got stronger for the Moro arc either, I assume he did because everyone else is forewarned and trains in that arc.

If he is already not Blue E or UIO/UI level Goku's statement is already 'wrong' or a range so general it could be as low as what we already know "ss2+".

I really don't see him being stronger then Kefla and thus Gohan, Although Freeza was sandbagging vs Kale it's still a feat and the fusion multiplier plus super saiyan is still fucking massive.

Are we even sure Dyspo has his whole speed gimmick to the same degree in the manga, if he does he could be standing up to 17 only because of that, alternatively 17 could be punching above his weight due to the infinite stamina.

[dragonball0900]

17 couldn't even beat Dyspo right away, it clearly took him a while off screen. Meanwhile, Kefla easily clowned Dyspo rapidly (with the help of his teammates, mind you), and this same Kefla was equal to Gohan, who was still not on CSSB Goku or Vegeta's level.

We also have CSSB Vegeta one shotting Dyspo in an instant and then fighting equally with Toppo. I repeat, the same Dyspo that 17 couldn't eliminate right away.

This shows 17 was nowhere near CSSB tier. He was only shown to be above SSJ3 tier, so he could easily be anywhere between SSJ3 and SSG (even highballing him, he could be SSG to RoF low SSB levels, but not much more than that, and that's most likely a stretch).

Then we have the Moro Saga, when 17 was clearly treated as 18's equal, and total fodder against Saganbo. He wasn't even able to fight as a team alongside CSSB Goku, Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo against Moro 73, which is something you would expect for someone that is CSSB tier. Gohan (the strongest of Earth) and even Piccolo had better feats than 17 (which means they are clearly stronger than him).

17 in the manga was never meant to be as strong as he was in the anime. If 17 was clearly CSSB tier, he would have performed the same feats he had in the anime (fighting Toppo, holding his own better against Jiren), but all we see from him is not being able to even eliminate Dyspo, who is one shot material for CSSB tier fighters.

[Koitsukai]

It should also be noted that Goku's been kinda unrealiable when gauging people's power, even when he can sense their ki (not just himself, Shin looked like an idiot in hindsight now), so taking Goku's statement to heart when he cannot even sense 17 is not really the best way to go.

[TobyS]

Plus the more I think about it it's in the broader moment of everyone sucking 17s dick, metaphorically, for winning the tournament vegeta goes on to say “anything for the saviour of earth” in reference to getting him his boat.

It's also weird if he's that high but 18 catches up enough to be useful and piccolo possibly surpasses him in the next arc, both of which are less weird if you lowball him here.

He ain't E or Omen level, he literally only proves he's above SS2. So Gokus statement is either polite complementary hyperbole or very very general. He's not galactic patrol or Freeza force or Namekian villager level he's in the “Z-fighter” tier that Goku respects which is between Chaozu and Goku imo.

[Cipher]

Plus the more I think about it it's in the broader moment of everyone sucking 17s dick, metaphorically, for winning the tournament vegeta goes on to say “anything for the saviour of earth” in reference to getting him his boat.

Most of the lines regarding #17 come prior to the ending. Dende says he might have become a dangerous enemy were getting still against them, and Mr. Popo (iirc) chides Goku for ignoring the potential of fighters on Earth, Kuririn expresses surprise at his strength in the bonus chapter where he reveals the existence of the Cell Jr.s, and Piccolo gets a moment of comical shock and wonders about his training after #17 casually dispatches Botamo.

Taken together with Goku’s ending line and their skirmish implying #17 is at least stronger than SS3 (it’s the most immediate way to read that encounter no matter how you slice it), I have zero problem with the thrust of the arc being that #17 really is in some broad tier with the God+ fighters. It’s just that, as others have pointed out, we already know contextually he’s not exactly in Goku and Vegeta’s range (CSSB), which allows us to read Goku’s comment somewhat generally.

But not so generally as to place him any lower than SSG, I wouldn’t think, and it seems more natural to think he’s probably a bit higher up.

Re: Dyspo: No speed gimmick implied in the manga, but we really don’t know a thing about their fight other than that #17 is fine afterward whereas Dyspo is on the ropes. It’s also not that long a bout—it happens during one skirmish between Goku and Jiren. It isn’t the prolonged, multi-chapter affair something like Vegeta vs. Toppo is. #17 isn’t as strong as Kefla and Gohan, but that doesn’t mean he has to be suuuuuper far off.

It's also weird if he's that high but 18 catches up enough to be useful and piccolo possibly surpasses him in the next arc, both of which are less weird if you lowball him here.

I don’t think #18 caught up or even trained in the Moro arc. Certainly nothing tells us she did, and she shows up solely at Capsule Corp.’s financial behest.

I think people read way too far into the group scenes vs. Saganbo there, where Toyotaro just wasn’t that picky about how he showed them collectively being outmatched. Strongest-among-them Gohan gets ragdolled just like everyone else (alongside #17 while Piccolo and #18 watch at one point), and the pages don’t seem picky about explicitly presenting who’s getting ragdolled more.

I don’t think #17 necessarily has to be dead-even with Goku and Vegeta (we know he’s not) to justify Goku’s line, but as always I’m more inclined to think of how things might work with the dialogue/authorial statements we’re given (which direct power-related dialogue may as well be) rather than scrutinize the way we individual scenes are presented, when there’s a choice between the two.

Even Golden Freeza being more or less CSSB level by the ToP is an assumption that relies solely on dialogue and is never really evidenced in a scene (other than Beerus at least wondering if he might have a chance against Jiren, while doubting it). Sometimes you just gotta roll with “If you say so.”

[Nevaeh]

17 can fit in the as strong as SSB but weaker than SSB Goku tier

[Cipher]

17 can fit in the as strong as SSB but weaker than SSB Goku tier

More or less where I end up the more I think about it.

[Miracles]

Remember, TOEI was getting complaints how 17 was able to rival Goku Blue. They came out and said Toriyama himself gave it his approval. Toriyama stated 17 has "great potential." Hence why even the Super manga has Goku saying 17 is in he and Vegeta's league. It's a Toriyama official for 17 to be around Blue's level.

Spoiler:

[dragonball0900]

Remember, TOEI was getting complaints how 17 was able to rival Goku Blue. They came out and said Toriyama himself gave it his approval.

What's the source of this? And why I never heard about this from anywhere or anyone before?

[ZombieVito]

Remember, TOEI was getting complaints how 17 was able to rival Goku Blue. They came out and said Toriyama himself gave it his approval. Toriyama stated 17 has "great potential." Hence why even the Super manga has Goku saying 17 is in he and Vegeta's league. It's a Toriyama official for 17 to be around Blue's level.

Spoiler:

[TobyS]

Remember, TOEI was getting complaints how 17 was able to rival Goku Blue. They came out and said Toriyama himself gave it his approval. Toriyama stated 17 has "great potential." Hence why even the Super manga has Goku saying 17 is in he and Vegeta's league. It's a Toriyama official for 17 to be around Blue's level.

Spoiler:

Has someone translated this?

[TobyS]

It's also weird if he's that high but 18 catches up enough to be useful and piccolo possibly surpasses him in the next arc, both of which are less weird if you lowball him here.

I don’t think #18 caught up or even trained in the Moro arc. Certainly nothing tells us she did, and she shows up solely at Capsule Corp.’s financial behest.

I feel like the dragon team all had warning and trained off-screen. The two that don't especially care to get involved were bribed. But I'd assume they were bribed to train and then participate rather than just participate at their old level because why wouldn't you get a better deal like that.

17 ranges and scraps with the Jr's for training. 18 has trained with Kuririn in the past in preparation for a day when they have a chance to win money so she'd do it in a case where the money is guaranteed as long as they live. Perhaps she trained with 17 this time.

It also makes it plausible that 18 can land duo attacks with someone as strong as 17, she's closed the gap a little bit between them in the meantime.

[dragonball0900]

I'm still not able to see any source that confirms any complaints to Toei about 17's level and that Toei said to them that it was Toriyama's idea. I won't believe it until I see it, so for now I still have Manga 17 as far weaker than CSSB tier until it's proven.

Manga 17 is only slightly superior to a guy that was easily clowned and dominated by a fusion that rivalled a hybrid saiyan that was stated to still be below CSSB Goku's level. That doesn't scream "Manga 17 is CSSB tier!" to me.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, Toriyama's "he has great potential" means nothing next to 17 fighting literally nobody of that level, so...