Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Jack Bz]

Thank you for that correction Jack Bz!!! I was wrong. I'm glad I have understanding on that now! I appreciate your understanding and explanation to me!

no problem my friend. Glad to have a strength debate end with everyone on the same page for once, how refreshing.

[Miracles]

What's with this thread and people always misinterpreting simple things?

"toughest ever" >>>> strongest ever, there's no "he was talking about how hard his chest is".

"apart from the gods">>> Beerus n Whis, no other gods.

"I suppose if we have to give them numbers... " >>> there's no subtext, no ulterior meaning. If one is 10, the other is a 6, and the other one is 15.


Why does this fandom analyzes so much every single word?

I know. I usually call out the fandom for over analyzing. However, on that interview, I'm guilty of such. I understand my error on that now.

More power to you for that call out.

[Koitsukai]

What's with this thread and people always misinterpreting simple things?

"toughest ever" >>>> strongest ever, there's no "he was talking about how hard his chest is".

"apart from the gods">>> Beerus n Whis, no other gods.

"I suppose if we have to give them numbers... " >>> there's no subtext, no ulterior meaning. If one is 10, the other is a 6, and the other one is 15.


Why does this fandom analyzes so much every single word?

I know. I usually call out the fandom for over analyzing. However, on that interview, I'm guilty of such. I understand my error on that now.

More power to you for that call out.

Awesome you can admit when you are wrong, as you probably know this isn't common not only here, but on the internet as a whole, so it is quite refreshing.


Also, I just remembered people misreading that Moro-related quote by saying it actually was about "how hard the arc had been for the heroes", I chuckled and wanted to share that with you guys.

[Gogeta_Blue]

Is Broly nerfed in the manga? The dialogue between Goku and Whis suggest he and Vegeta are the two strongest in U7. MUI Goku > Broly isn't surprising, but SSBE Vegeta > Broly seems like a major stretch, even with the boost Vegeta got from training in the Moro arc.

[Koitsukai]

Is Broly nerfed in the manga? The dialogue between Goku and Whis suggest he and Vegeta are the two strongest in U7. MUI Goku > Broly isn't surprising, but SSBE Vegeta > Broly seems like a major stretch, even with the boost Vegeta got from training in the Moro arc.

Even without that dialogue(that can have more than one interpretation), current SSBE Vegeta is above Broly. Not really because Broly was nerfed, but because Vegeta has improved greatly, specially during this arc, and I'm not even talking about his new form.

[Skar]

After his Yardrat training, SSJBE Vegeta seemed to be between Omen and UI Goku so it's possible he's stronger than Broly in the manga continuity at least. It's hard to be sure since Omen and SSJBE weren't created by Toriyama so the movie had Blue Gogeta > LSSJ Broly > SSJ Gogeta > Base Gogeta > individual SSJBs. Regular SSJ Broly fits somewhere in there too but I forgot if he went LSSJ against SSJ or Blue Gogeta.

[Thani]

After his Yardrat training, SSJBE Vegeta seemed to be between Omen and UI Goku so it's possible he's stronger than Broly in the manga continuity at least. It's hard to be sure since Omen and SSJBE weren't created by Toriyama so the movie had Blue Gogeta > LSSJ Broly > SSJ Gogeta > Base Gogeta > individual SSJBs. Regular SSJ Broly fits somewhere in there too but I forgot if he went LSSJ against SSJ or Blue Gogeta.

Against SSj. Their fight were roughly even in normal Super Saiyan, but Broly improves and eventually turns Legendary, forcing Gogeta to turn Blue in order to outclass Broly completely.

[Koitsukai]

From BoG:

Who from Z and from DBS can take SS3 Goku as easily as Beerus did? could Z Vegito do that? could manga Hit do that? Could Ikari Broly?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Is Broly nerfed in the manga? The dialogue between Goku and Whis suggest he and Vegeta are the two strongest in U7. MUI Goku > Broly isn't surprising, but SSBE Vegeta > Broly seems like a major stretch, even with the boost Vegeta got from training in the Moro arc.

I don't think Moro arc SSBE Vegeta (or even beginning of Granolah SSBE Vegeta) is stronger than Broly. But you could argue that maybe post Hakai training SSBE Vegeta is as strong or stronger than him considering his improvement, it depends on where you put this version of Vegeta. It's hard to know, but some people have him above Moro73/Jiren, so he can fit anywhere between that level and Moro arc UI Goku

From BoG:

Who from Z and from DBS can take SS3 Goku as easily as Beerus did? could Z Vegito do that? could manga Hit do that? Could Ikari Broly?

BoG implies that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan (judging by everyone's reaction to Goku's arrival on Earth and the hope that he would be able to defeat Beerus, despite Gohan and Gotenks' unsuccessful efforts). Regardless of whether it has to do with Goku's improvement or Gohan's weakening (who at least still retains his Ultimate state), I think anyone above Boohan's level would beat this Goku as easily as Beerus.

[Cipher]

From BoG:

Who from Z and from DBS can take SS3 Goku as easily as Beerus did? could Z Vegito do that? could manga Hit do that? Could Ikari Broly?

Yes, yes, and yes.

The Beerus who flicks SS3 Goku into submission is given at least a compelling fight (even if Beerus still isn’t taking it seriously) by SSG Goku. It stands to reason that anyone stronger than SSG Goku could then have put down his SS3 self about as easily—that definitely includes manga Hit and even pre-Super Saiyan Broly. (Hit at full power in the U6 arc is certain he can catch SSG Goku in the Time Skip, and we literally see Broly toss around SSG Goku.) The only unknown on your list is Vegetto, but I think we can make safe assumptions just from Vegetto and SS3 Goku’s roles in the Boo arc alone—with Vegetto absolutely trouncing a form of Boo several levels above the one Goku didn’t think he could take

At least the manga has also repeatedly reiterated that the gulf between SS3 and God is quite wide—presumably more so than the gulf between any other Super Saiyan forms.

[LightBing]

Is Broly nerfed in the manga? The dialogue between Goku and Whis suggest he and Vegeta are the two strongest in U7. MUI Goku > Broly isn't surprising, but SSBE Vegeta > Broly seems like a major stretch, even with the boost Vegeta got from training in the Moro arc.

I think the Broly nerf is his lack of control. He has no dominance over his strongest from, he's just a walking calamity attacking everything in his way.

Fair to assume Goku and Whis take this into account.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s more like Goku and Vegeta getting absurdly stronger, like always happens in Dragon Ball Super. Anyway, Goku implies between him and Vegeta he doesn’t know anyone else that could claim the title of strongest, he was not implying Vegeta alone was already stronger than Broly.

[Koitsukai]

By now, I think it's safe to assume Vegeta can stomp Broly in whatever form Broly might be in.

With his new form, for sure, and without it, I also think so but it could be up for debate.

[Thani]

Narratively speaking, Vegeta surpassing the "GoD-level" opponents would only fit with his new form, which is hyped as a match for UI itself, which also allows Goku to fight and surpass GoD-level opponents. With Evolution being his UI Sign equivalent, so to speak.

So, yeah, my headcanon forever will be that Vegeta now can beat Broly, with his new form.

[LightBing]

I don't feel like Vegeta and Goku actually got that much stronger. Specially since Beerus, the comparison stick, hasn't moved.

For SSJG Goku in the first arc to even be remotely entertaining to Beerus, he has to be like 10% of his power, in my opinion. Originally we know it was 60% in BoG movie.

I say 10% because that's has low as I can go without the statement becoming ridiculous.

We jump to the Zamasu arc and Vegetto = Beerus.

Pre-ToP, a stronger Vegeta gets a hit in playful Beerus and makes him obliterate him by going serious. This Beerus should have used more than 50% of his power. With the information that Vegetto and Beerus are close together, fair to say this Vegeta grew to 25-40% of Beerus.

Pre-Hakai training Beerus still one shots Vegeta.

UI Goku is the most significant upgrade story and feat wise. He's probably already above 50% Beerus.

This means Goku and Vegeta's growth rate is substantially slower than all of Dragon Ball.

[TobyS]

I don't feel like Vegeta and Goku actually got that much stronger. Specially since Beerus, the comparison stick, hasn't moved.

For SSJG Goku in the first arc to even be remotely entertaining to Beerus, he has to be like 10% of his power, in my opinion. Originally we know it was 60% in BoG movie.

I say 10% because that's has low as I can go without the statement becoming ridiculous.

We jump to the Zamasu arc and Vegetto = Beerus.

Pre-ToP, a stronger Vegeta gets a hit in playful Beerus and makes him obliterate him by going serious. This Beerus should have used more than 50% of his power. With the information that Vegetto and Beerus are close together, fair to say this Vegeta grew to 25-40% of Beerus.

Pre-Hakai training Beerus still one shots Vegeta.

UI Goku is the most significant upgrade story and feat wise. He's probably already above 50% Beerus.

This means Goku and Vegeta's growth rate is substantially slower than all of Dragon Ball.

I think your starting 10% is too high that's why their growth rate after seems slow

In universe it's hard to believe that ssgod was any more entertaining than ultimate Gohan was relatively speaking but that's a result of them not really knowing how long the revival would last and so on.

[Gogeta_Blue]

I don't feel like Vegeta and Goku actually got that much stronger. Specially since Beerus, the comparison stick, hasn't moved.

For SSJG Goku in the first arc to even be remotely entertaining to Beerus, he has to be like 10% of his power, in my opinion. Originally we know it was 60% in BoG movie.

I say 10% because that's has low as I can go without the statement becoming ridiculous.

We jump to the Zamasu arc and Vegetto = Beerus.

Pre-ToP, a stronger Vegeta gets a hit in playful Beerus and makes him obliterate him by going serious. This Beerus should have used more than 50% of his power. With the information that Vegetto and Beerus are close together, fair to say this Vegeta grew to 25-40% of Beerus.

Pre-Hakai training Beerus still one shots Vegeta.

UI Goku is the most significant upgrade story and feat wise. He's probably already above 50% Beerus.

This means Goku and Vegeta's growth rate is substantially slower than all of Dragon Ball.

What are your multipliers for MUI and SSBE in the manga? We know SSBE is less than UI Omen (ToP Omen Goku > ToP SSBE Vegeta and their bases were equal then), but it's stronger than Goku's pseudo Blue Kaioken (and roughly equal to SSBKK x20 in the anime).

Vegetto Blue barely over 10x BoG SSG Goku? I've seen low-balling but that's another level.

[ZombieVito]

Is Broly nerfed in the manga? The dialogue between Goku and Whis suggest he and Vegeta are the two strongest in U7. MUI Goku > Broly isn't surprising, but SSBE Vegeta > Broly seems like a major stretch, even with the boost Vegeta got from training in the Moro arc.

I don't think Moro arc SSBE Vegeta (or even beginning of Granolah SSBE Vegeta) is stronger than Broly. But you could argue that maybe post Hakai training SSBE Vegeta is as strong or stronger than him considering his improvement, it depends on where you put this version of Vegeta. It's hard to know, but some people have him above Moro73/Jiren, so he can fit anywhere between that level and Moro arc UI Goku

From BoG:

Who from Z and from DBS can take SS3 Goku as easily as Beerus did? could Z Vegito do that? could manga Hit do that? Could Ikari Broly?

BoG implies that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan (judging by everyone's reaction to Goku's arrival on Earth and the hope that he would be able to defeat Beerus, despite Gohan and Gotenks' unsuccessful efforts). Regardless of whether it has to do with Goku's improvement or Gohan's weakening (who at least still retains his Ultimate state), I think anyone above Boohan's level would beat this Goku as easily as Beerus.

Wait.

SS3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan in BoG?

[Hugo Boss]

Beerus implies that Goku offered the best resistance prior to Vegeta’s (My Bulma) power-up, so it can be inferred that SS3 Goku was above Ultimate Gohan in that timeframe.

[LightBing]

I think your starting 10% is too high that's why their growth rate after seems slow

In universe it's hard to believe that ssgod was any more entertaining than ultimate Gohan was relatively speaking but that's a result of them not really knowing how long the revival would last and so on.

SSG should be immensely more entertaining than Gohan since it was a power "Goku couldn't even imagine" implying it was stronger than Vegetto.

But yeah, the problem stems from the lack of planning. I'm just trying to justify in-universe.

What are your multipliers for MUI and SSBE in the manga? We know SSBE is less than UI Omen (ToP Omen Goku > ToP SSBE Vegeta and their bases were equal then), but it's stronger than Goku's pseudo Blue Kaioken (and roughly equal to SSBKK x20 in the anime).

Vegetto Blue barely over 10x BoG SSG Goku? I've seen low-balling but that's another level.

I don't have set numbers. MUI by the logic of the technique I will probably do this: Base + (mastery). It's cleaner and more organic.
SSBE I have nothing. I kind dropped off from figuring out the power scale after Gohan seemingly reached reached God tier level in the manga, with very little to justify it.

I'm only taking manga into account, but why do you think Goku's pseudo Kaioken in ToP is equivalent to the anime? x20 increase is insane.

Not all transformations need to be a huge boost, remember Monster Zarbon? It was a huge deal and his power didn't even increase 2 fold.

In Super the only significant increments to me are: SSJ God(probably the biggest jump in all of Dragon Ball) and Ultra Instinct.
The rest can be way more like the Zarbon example I gave.

But like I said, I'm just trying to justify unplanned writing. We work with what we get, with a bit more leeway it could be different.