"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

There is no way Toyotaro is a millionaire. I don't know what V-Jump artists make, but it isn't bank. His contributions to the anime also probably fall under work-for-hire categories that don't yield him any big residuals.

The only manga artists who are set up for life on their work are those who land an anime adaptation that becomes a major blockbuster hit, and that's because they get all the merchandise cuts that come with it. Toyotaro doesn't even own the property he works on.

[JulieYBM]

There is no way Toyotaro is a millionaire. I don't know what V-Jump artists make, but it isn't bank. His contributions to the anime also probably fall under work-for-hire categories that don't yield him any big residuals.

Let it never be said that I'm not at least kind.

[Chuquita]

I'm curious as to how the process of producing scripts for the anime differs from this very layered method the manga uses and wondering if that could partly explain why imo the anime had higher highs and lower lows where the manga feels like it's taking the middle road and just playing it safe.

[Koitsukai]

So, all the discussions about the wish and the new dragon weren't on Toyo after all?

Not to toot my own horn, but I mentioned a few pages back that the whole plot point feels more in line with Toriyama than Toyotaro. In hindsight, though, it's not terribly surprising -- most of Super's "riskier" aspects come from the man himself.

I think a more interesting topic is what role the Cerealian balls (or even the Namekians) might continue to serve in the arc, if any. There could be an actual throughline here.

If I were a betting man, and I am, I guess, before this interview I would've also said this ballsy move was Toriyama's. It's a bold move.

[TobyS]

So, all the discussions about the wish and the new dragon weren't on Toyo after all?

Not to toot my own horn, but I mentioned a few pages back that the whole plot point feels more in line with Toriyama than Toyotaro. In hindsight, though, it's not terribly surprising -- most of Super's "riskier" aspects come from the man himself.

I think a more interesting topic is what role the Cerealian balls (or even the Namekians) might continue to serve in the arc, if any. There could be an actual throughline here.

If I were a betting man, and I am, I guess, before this interview I would've also said this ballsy move was Toriyama's. It's a bold move.

They've made a big deal about how old the namek is. He even has a bum leg despite being one of the most famous limb regenerators in the series, nameks.

I'm guessing they will be gone by the end of the arc.

[PurestEvil]

So the process is: Toyotarõ comes up with the villain, him and his editor come up with a story, finally it's sent to Toriyama.

Too many obstacles for it to be anything more than average, unless Toriyama completely takes over...

First Toyotarõ doesn't feel like he can take any major decisions, like create a new set of Dragon Balls. This is a huge roadblock, tip-toeing your own ideas seems counter-productive.

Then the editor screening, I'm assuming the editor like many others holds back certain concepts. I bet if Toyotarõ came up with Mr.Boo, for example, it would be shot down "not cool enough".

Looking at the Toriyama intervention, it seems essential to keep the story interesting. He came up with the Heeters and has insight like pointing out how Ceruleans aren't a warrior race.

That sounds like how the government operates...not efficient at all.

No, it sounds like how capitalism works. If this were a democratic government that was failing it would be because it failed the people and thus was now being cleaned up by the people. Under capitalism the people have zero recourse because the government is bribed to provide financial bailouts.

Did the joke about government bureaucracy fly over your head?

[LightBing]

I'm curious as to how the process of producing scripts for the anime differs from this very layered method the manga uses and wondering if that could partly explain why imo the anime had higher highs and lower lows where the manga feels like it's taking the middle road and just playing it safe.

Wasn't there a writing team for the anime? It's been so long I might be misremembering.

The manga didn't really played it safe, it's choices weren't preferred by the general audience and for the most part went with better writing and internal logic than fireworks, fan-service and the emotional route.

To give some examples:
- Giving Trunks a dumb power up out of nowhere and a big heroic moment vs giving a reasonable power up and connecting his role in the story to lore regarding the Kaioshins.
- Providing a shinning light on the humans during ToP vs disposing of them as writing tool for another plot point(Freeza vs Frost)
- Giving a big emotional episode to Muten Roshi vs using him to help Goku achieve UI.

[Marz]

I suppose so, for the Namekians. The first anecdote he brings up as far as not feeling like it was a boundary he could cross was introducing another set of Dragon Balls though.

Which, like, dude, just introduce new Dragon Balls if you want! Introduce five new sets! It doesn't matter.

I can see where you are going, but I'm afraid this is not an opinion shared by many. It's clear how much this fanbase judges new material based on the original author's involvement in it.

Hell, you even have people trying to get into the author's mind and dictating which aspects of the story were made by him or not, and calling the rest fanfic. Regardless of whether Toyo has this in mind or not, I think it's good that he feels that there are things that can only be done by the creator. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to the manga if Toyo were more daring with some decisions? Who knows, but that would only work if he nailed the proposed idea, otherwise it would all turn into a fight in this fandom as we see all the time. It's for the better I guess

This interview sure does a lot of describing Toriyama's involvement with the arc outline, and with Toyotaro also recalling how surprised he was about it, I'd guess it's a subtle implication that the former really was only minimally involved with the previous arc (unless I'm reading into it too much).

I guess this has to do with the fact that during the entire Super run in both anime and manga, Toriyama only provided basic and vague outlines, in which the gaps needed to continually be filled by TOEI and Toyotaro, with us only getting to know a few things that were his Toriyama. We don't know how it was done with Moro, but it seems that with Granola he fleshed out more of the story and characters rather than just creating a vague initial draft

[TKA]

Toyotaro feeling like there are some things he shouldn't change is perfectly reasonable and rational. It's also why he'll never be on Toriyama's level. Toriyama, as the creator, knows what is integral to his world and what isn't. He can come in tomorrow and change anything about it, because he knows which of the jenga pieces to pull without making the whole thing crumble. Toyotaro, Yamamuro, or any other writer they get will never have that ability because this isn't their world. They have to play within the rules Toriyama constructed, while he can ignore those rules and make up new ones.

It's why every Disney Star Wars movie feels hollow compared to all the ones George Lucas made. It's why their sequel movies feel like just more of the same, while George's pitch for them seems fucking insane, with going into a microscopic world and shit.

It's why these franchises always feel empty once the original creator leaves them. Always remember that the creatives matter more than the IP.

[JulieYBM]

That sounds like how the government operates...not efficient at all.

No, it sounds like how capitalism works. If this were a democratic government that was failing it would be because it failed the people and thus was now being cleaned up by the people. Under capitalism the people have zero recourse because the government is bribed to provide financial bailouts.

Did the joke about government bureaucracy fly over your head?

No, I'm saying your post wasn't funny nor did it come across as a joke at all.

[PurestEvil]

No, it sounds like how capitalism works. If this were a democratic government that was failing it would be because it failed the people and thus was now being cleaned up by the people. Under capitalism the people have zero recourse because the government is bribed to provide financial bailouts.

Did the joke about government bureaucracy fly over your head?

No, I'm saying your post wasn't funny nor did it come across as a joke at all.

[Jiren The Alpha]

The Heeter's designs were rejected 3 or 4 times by Toriyama before being finalised.

And people say he doesn't care about Dragon Ball

[Yuji]

Toyotaro feeling like there are some things he shouldn't change is perfectly reasonable and rational. It's also why he'll never be on Toriyama's level. Toriyama, as the creator, knows what is integral to his world and what isn't. He can come in tomorrow and change anything about it, because he knows which of the jenga pieces to pull without making the whole thing crumble. Toyotaro, Yamamuro, or any other writer they get will never have that ability because this isn't their world. They have to play within the rules Toriyama constructed, while he can ignore those rules and make up new ones.

It's why every Disney Star Wars movie feels hollow compared to all the ones George Lucas made. It's why their sequel movies feel like just more of the same, while George's pitch for them seems fucking insane, with going into a microscopic world and shit.

It's why these franchises always feel empty once the original creator leaves them. Always remember that the creatives matter more than the IP.

If you argue that franchises die because successors are too afraid to twist and turn the story like the original creator does, why do you think it's reasonable that Toyotarou does that? Shouldn't he feel the opposite, so the franchise doesn't stagnate and die?

[PurestEvil]

The Heeter's designs were rejected 3 or 4 times by Toriyama before being finalised.

And people say he doesn't care about Dragon Ball

I’d say the final designs look quite...hot...

[Skar]

If you argue that franchises die because successors are too afraid to twist and turn the story like the original creator does, why do you think it's reasonable that Toyotarou does that? Shouldn't he feel the opposite, so the franchise doesn't stagnate and die?

Well Toriyama is still involved so I think he meant that the franchise would stagnate and die once Toriyama retired. I remember someone at Toei saying that about GT and that some fans felt the new ideas they came up with ruined the original. Toriyama said something similar about RoF that only the original author could mess with what's been established while other writers would try to make it fit better. Mileage may vary on how good that worked out but I don't think the general audience would consider anything "authentic" if there isn't any direct involvement from the original author at this point due to how old the series is.

[TKA]

If you argue that franchises die because successors are too afraid to twist and turn the story like the original creator does, why do you think it's reasonable that Toyotarou does that? Shouldn't he feel the opposite, so the franchise doesn't stagnate and die?

You didn't read what I said, or you didn't read it well.

The creator knows the ways in which to make changes without the world they made crumbling, and in fact enriching that world. It was their baby, born from a mind crafted by their specific life experiences; they have a relationship with the work that no other person can ever have. An architect knows what beams a house can do without, while a layman might take out the wrong one and have the whole thing crumble.

[Yuji]

If you argue that franchises die because successors are too afraid to twist and turn the story like the original creator does, why do you think it's reasonable that Toyotarou does that? Shouldn't he feel the opposite, so the franchise doesn't stagnate and die?

You didn't read what I said, or you didn't read it well.

The creator knows the ways in which to make changes without the world they made crumbling, and in fact enriching that world. It was their baby, born from a mind crafted by their specific life experiences; they have a relationship with the work that no other person can ever have. An architect knows what beams a house can do without, while a layman might take out the wrong one and have the whole thing crumble.

But Toyotarou wouldn't be the hypothetical layman, he would be a different architect coming in, almost as equipped as the original one to take care of the building.

[emperior]

If you argue that franchises die because successors are too afraid to twist and turn the story like the original creator does, why do you think it's reasonable that Toyotarou does that? Shouldn't he feel the opposite, so the franchise doesn't stagnate and die?

You didn't read what I said, or you didn't read it well.

The creator knows the ways in which to make changes without the world they made crumbling, and in fact enriching that world. It was their baby, born from a mind crafted by their specific life experiences; they have a relationship with the work that no other person can ever have. An architect knows what beams a house can do without, while a layman might take out the wrong one and have the whole thing crumble.

But Toyotarou wouldn't be the hypothetical layman, he would be a different architect coming in, almost as equipped as the original one to take care of the building.

He wouldn’t. I have to agree with TKA on this.

But with Toriyama checking in, I wonder why Toyotaro doesn’t want to pitch some crazy ideas of his own. Toriyama could always reject them instantly if he wanted. Maybe it happened already some times in early writing stages? Or maybe the editor doesn’t want to send Toriyama stuff which is too crazy. Who knows.

Either way, this interview confirmed stuff we could already infer just by reading the manga. For example it wouldn’t be surprising at all if it turned out that Toriyama had the idea to progress Vegeta in the Beerus’ direction but it was Toyotaro who designed Vegeta’s new form and gave him an earring. And I also wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out that a few drawings of base Vegeta last chapter were Toriyama’s.

[DiscountDabi]

Either way, we get Draft Pages in 2 days so we should see the fruits of Vegeta's Training. Given Beerus Taugh Vegeta this, I think its safe to assume that Vegeta's New Power is the reason why Beerus is still above the two saiyans despite being below Belmod who's below Jiren.

[Skar]

But with Toriyama checking in, I wonder why Toyotaro doesn’t want to pitch some crazy ideas of his own. Toriyama could always reject them instantly if he wanted. Maybe it happened already some times in early writing stages? Or maybe the editor doesn’t want to send Toriyama stuff which is too crazy. Who knows.

I think that already happened a few times. I recall him saying he rejected few suggestions before deciding on rebooting Broly. Toyotaro's editor said they went through over ten ideas before deciding on the current arc so presumably Toriyama declined the rest of them. These wouldn't necessarily be bad ideas or too
and maybe just something Toriyama didn't feel fit his style.