"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Charlie's Shadow]

There's also a matter of applicability. Most theories have a domain in which they are applicable, which is defined explicitly by the one that developed that theory, or implicitly, by the hypothesis and assumptions common to most theories.

Miss me with that junior high school stuff.

The point of philosophy and political theory is to apply them to all aspects of life. That's why they have to be robust. You can apply them to anything, and more times than not, they enhance whatever you apply them to. A capitalist critique applied to Dragonball is probably one of the most salient, given how obvious they tend to be with their marketing.

"Broly was popular, so we made Toriyama-sensei write a movie about him."

"Future Trunks was popular, so we made Toriyama-sensei write an arc about him."

I deliberately did not reply to you because you called a poster "braindead", which is beyond the pale for me. I recommend reassessing how you interact with others.

Miss me with that grade school stuff.
If you think you can ignore the basics of argumentation, and worse, ignore the fundamental hypothesis that ensures the consistency of a theory, then you're the one that's stuck in lower levels of philosophy. What basis of argumentation do you have to state that you can straight up dismiss the limitations of a theory and apply it to whatever you want with no care at all? Because if you have none, your argument is just pseudoscience. Might as well ignore statistics and claim that astrology is real.

Intentional or non-intentional unawareness of all parameters used in development of a theory or even a small part of a theory often leads to disastrous conclusions, and this applies to all scientific fields. If you want a few examples of misunderstandings of fundamental aspects of some theories, here's a video. Even basic statistics can be absurdly misused due to lack of understanding.

https://youtu.be/bVG2OQp6jEQ
https://youtu.be/ioxWuCd-mn0

In case you reply with "I'm not talking about statistics", keep in mind this is an example of the general point: Lack of understanding/Intentional ignorance towards the main hypothesis and assumptions behind a theory or a method.

This is all very basic, anyone even remotely familiar with how development of a scientific theory works would know that. So maybe try learning a bit more before saying that other people's arguments are "junior high school stuff".

[JulieYBM]

Those pages were a fart in the wind. I hope the fight isn't just forty more pages of that.

[Charlie's Shadow]

Drafts are out: https://twitter.com/DbsHype/status/1425 ... 4504?s=20
Personal Thoughs?

Spoiler:

Vegeta is without a doubt stronger than Goku right now. Mans looks insane, he's beating Granolah Like a Rag Doll

Spoiler:

Choreography looks alright. There's a bit too much "blitz opponent and toss him around with strong punch/kick" but there's variety in the angles and shots used. (Toyotaro's fight choreography can be bland and repetitive at times, imo).

As for power level, I do agree with you, but I'll avoid reaching a strong conclusion before seeing how full power MUI Goku handles Granola.

[TKA]

What possible artistic benefit could releasing the drafts of a chapter provide? It worsens the reading experience because you now know what to expect. It puts out rough, undetailed art that Toyotaro himself might not particularly enjoy being out there. The only reason they'd release drafts is to build hype, in order to make more people excited for the final release, and that translates to increased sales. Hm. This capitalist framing device sure is useful, I tell you hwat.

your argument is just pseudoscience.

This sorta proves you have no clue what you're talking about.

None of this is science. This is human behavior, and human perceptions. It's all art, which does not portend to be science. Pseudoscience is nonsense that pretends to be science. You have a woeful misunderstanding of what a framing device is, and your attitude puts me off explaining it to you.

Hopefully a mod comes around and cleans up your ad hominen posts eventually, and this is my last reply to you.

[BWri]

I started to like him again in Tournament of Power, which was actually pretty fresh, to make him part of the hero team, but now it's Freeza there somewhere, sure, he is strong, he can make trouble, but is he really a trouble for the main guys? Not by a stretch...

This is bit of the DB formula that really irks me. I'm specifically talking about the reliance on making 2 characters the strongest, heads and shoulders above everyone else at all times. It's to the point where even Frieza is considered a mid-tier fighter. What, did he expend all his potential already?

Super Dragon Ball Heroes unintentionally parodied this really well during the battle with Hearts, by making Jiren and Hit the same jobber tier as Piccolo and #17, like right after the ToP had ended no less .

Not really when Jiren and Hit helped Gogeta take out Hearts while Piccolo and 17 did jack. Jiren also did the best against Cumber outside of UI and Golden Metal Cooler.

This is after Zamasu no-sold Jiren and looked absolutely terrified when he saw Omen Goku seconds later. Jiren had some decent moments but was mostly treated as a scrub. He was nothing to Hearts. All Jiren and Hit contributed to Gogeta were two small beams that probably also did jack. I mean, face it, if Jiren is fighting at Hit's level, that's already a nerf.

I say all that, but I actually liked that part of SDBH. The power gap is shortened drastically to where Piccolo and #17 are fighting side by side with the likes of Jiren, Hit, Goku, and Vegeta ... but again, the huge gap is there for the two strongest like I mentioned before (Gogeta/Hearts).

[Xeogran]

It puts out rough, undetailed art that Toyotaro himself might not particularly enjoy being out there.

Is it weird I tend to like the drafts more than the final pages? They give that "impact frame" feeling, and somehow that sketchy style makes the art look more lively to look at. I mean the page of Vegeta holding Granolah by the collar right now is great!

[BWri]

Those pages were a fart in the wind. I hope the fight isn't just forty more pages of that.

I'm with you there. I know its a new form and all, but I'd rather cut to something else at this point. 40 more pages of punches and kicks with a funky new technique or 2 thrown in won't really satisfy me this time. Hopefully something moves this damn story forward before the conclusion of the fight. And for the love of Kami, please don't tag Goku back in!

[Charlie's Shadow]

your argument is just pseudoscience.

This sorta proves you have no clue what you're talking about.

None of this is science. This is human behavior, and human perceptions. It's all art, which does not portend to be science. Pseudoscience is nonsense that pretends to be science. You have a woeful misunderstanding of what a framing device is, and your attitude puts me off explaining it to you.

Hopefully a mod comes around and cleans up your ad hominen posts eventually, and this is my last reply to you.

This "reply" absolutely proves you don't know what you're talking about. Theories developed to analyse human behavior aren't based on imagination. Even methods that are developed to analyse and criticize art are based on a logical foundation, in which hypothesis, assumptions and simplifications are established. Knowing all of these parameters are fundamental to apply what is being used.

Ignoring these parameters, which is what you defend, is equivalent to pseudoscience.

Your behavior proves how you weren't willing to debate at all.The classic "lol I'm done responding lol", with some "I want a mod to shut you up" to spice it up. Along with focusing on one sentence and dismissing everything else for no reason. These fallacies won't get you anywhere.

Speaking of which, the only ad-hominem in my reply was rephrasing exactly what you had stated in the beginning of yours. Nice try, though, trying to frame everything that was said as ad-hominem to get away from the discussion with some false superiority.

And if you want mod interference, then you should consider how you're defending posts that completely derail the main topic of this particular thread, just because you have some uncontrollable urge to force your political view unto every subject.

[JulieYBM]

Toyo-tarou admitted to using sexual harassment of women for comedy in a kids comic. Wow, fuck you too asshole.

That sounds like how the government operates...not efficient at all.

No, it sounds like how capitalism works. If this were a democratic government that was failing it would be because it failed the people and thus was now being cleaned up by the people. Under capitalism the people have zero recourse because the government is bribed to provide financial bailouts.

Imagine being so braindead and addicted to ideologies that you have to shift the entire point of the joke just to come with "hurr Durr capitalism is bad". And while doing so, showing so little understanding of literally everything you mentioned.

Government Bureaucracy isn't an issue associated with any economic or political system. It can and it has happened under all forms of government, including (but not limited to) democratic governments with socialistic tendencies and ideas. This bureaucracy, this inefficiency, was the point of the comment.

Try to learn basic reading comprehension before spiting garbage with topics you're clearly not prepared to debate.

Omigosh, you, like, think I'm brain dead?!

Those bimbofication hypnos are, like, actually working!

[HeroR]

This is bit of the DB formula that really irks me. I'm specifically talking about the reliance on making 2 characters the strongest, heads and shoulders above everyone else at all times. It's to the point where even Frieza is considered a mid-tier fighter. What, did he expend all his potential already?

Super Dragon Ball Heroes unintentionally parodied this really well during the battle with Hearts, by making Jiren and Hit the same jobber tier as Piccolo and #17, like right after the ToP had ended no less .

Not really when Jiren and Hit helped Gogeta take out Hearts while Piccolo and 17 did jack. Jiren also did the best against Cumber outside of UI and Golden Metal Cooler.

This is after Zamasu no-sold Jiren and looked absolutely terrified when he saw Omen Goku seconds later. Jiren had some decent moments but was mostly treated as a scrub. He was nothing to Hearts. All Jiren and Hit contributed to Gogeta were two small beams that probably also did jack. I mean, face it, if Jiren is fighting at Hit's level, that's already a nerf.

I say all that, but I actually liked that part of SDBH. The power gap is shortened drastically to where Piccolo and #17 are fighting side by side with the likes of Jiren, Hit, Goku, and Vegeta ... but again, the huge gap is there for the two strongest like I mentioned before (Gogeta/Hearts).

He only no-sold Jiren because he’s literally immortal, which Zamasu himself lampshaded. Zamasu couldn’t do anything against Jiren and it’s even worst in the manga where Jiren took the entire team on by himself which included Hearts, Cumber, and Zamasu. And he only really fought Hearts in the anime after he absorbed the seed that was supposed to let him kill Zeno.

17 and Piccolo fought none of those guys outside of the Fusion Baby clone. Which in the manga, his giant form got one-shotted by Jiren, not UI.

[BWri]

He only no-sold Jiren because he’s literally immortal, which Zamasu himself lampshaded.

I meant his attitude towards him. He didn't seem to even care that he was there, but as soon as he saw Goku the fear of death was put into him immediately. And the anime showed him basically throwing hands with Jiren as if they were at the same level.

Zamasu couldn’t do anything against Jiren and it’s even worst in the manga where Jiren took the entire team on by himself which included Hearts, Cumber, and Zamasu. And he only really fought Hearts in the anime after he absorbed the seed that was supposed to let him kill Zeno.

17 and Piccolo fought none of those guys outside of the Fusion Baby clone. Which in the manga, his giant form got one-shotted by Jiren, not UI.

The manga sounds way better from this description.

[Jack Bz]

Vegeta is looking utterly crazed in these panels. He's also talking about his power growing the more he gets into battle. Honestly these traits combined are reminding me of Broly more than anyone else. It also feels like he may just lose himself; maybe that's the form's downside

[Cipher]

The page in the preview where Vegeta pops in to knee Granolah in the back of the kneck is outrageously good—some of Toyotaro’s best action ever. It feels so fast and sudden, I genuinely chuckled out loud. Also note how well in the service of that panel the bits of slower, emphasized movement (usually a weakness of the series) are—Granolah’s three panels reorienting himself, followed by Vegeta not being where Granolah thinks he should be when he’s righted himself, followed by the huge panel of Vegeta appearing out of nowhere for the knee. The only thing that might improve on the page, which is nearly perfect, would be cutting the overhead shot of the impact at the end and just extending the panel of Granolah rocketing down—to make it feel like he’s plummeting even further and faster.

This entire sequence is some of Toyotaro’s most Toriyama-comparable action. In general the trend of Granolah being slow (and therefore getting more movement panels) and Vegeta being fast (so he pops in and out in single ones, with pretty clear impressions of distance traveled) is maintained throughout. I don’t think Super has seen such a smartly timed and paneled action sequence since the criminally overlooked Vegeta vs. Hit, and that really only featured two or three exchanges.

Just so, so good. People have talked about Toyotaro’s paneling improvements for a while, which I haven’t always taken to mean much other than “He’s using fewer panels now” (which I don’t always think has felt fair as an assessment of in-scene pacing or readability—as in, it dismisses good stuff on those fronts done when he was using more panels per page, and kind of unfairly weighs lesser sequences on those fronts in less crowded pages), but this is the real deal. That is a sequence that nips at Toriyama’s heels.

[LightBing]

I wonder if when Granolah's wish is revealed, Goku will wonder about Monaka.
I want that interaction to occur.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Does anyone have translations for the drafts? I'm loving the action panels from Toyo, I feel like he's improved so much in that area. The last chapter was go good I re-read it several times, and that's something I rarely do.

[Jack Bz]

Does anyone have translations for the drafts? I'm loving the action panels from Toyo, I feel like he's improved so much in that area. The last chapter was go good I re-read it several times, and that's something I rarely do.

According to Herms:

Granolah: “What do you mean your power has no limit?!”
Vegeta: “You’ve really gotten cocky! Get ready, because now I’m going to get rough with you!”


Vegeta: “The way I am now, the more my fighting spirit burns, the stronger I grow!”

[Lionel]

Should have aimed for the man's brachial plexus or tibilias anterior muscle. Gohan's fight with Cell taught us that you lose half your strength when you have only one arm (presumably hand too)... right? Knowing Toyotaro, Vegeta would shrug it off and go on a blusterous enunciation about Saiyans being too powerful for such "parlour tricks". Yeah, sure. I take it hitting a particularly sensitive area like the groin wouldn't do anything either because you're just such a limitless juggernaut who I'm guessing doesn't even need to eat or breathe anymore.

Sorry about the petty rant there. I don't like this side of Vegeta because I find it to be one of his less appealing personality traits. I guess props to anyone who's enjoying it. Right now I'm hoping Granolah can somehow shift the tide back his favour but that's not looking very likely. Does Vegeta kill him at the end? Hopefully not. I'm having more genuine curiosity about Granolah's abilities than Vegeta or Goku's right now.

[jd55513]

Should have aimed for the man's brachial plexus or tibilias anterior muscle. Gohan's fight with Cell taught us that you lose half your strength when you have only one arm (presumably hand too)... right? Knowing Toyotaro, Vegeta would shrug it off and go on a blusterous enunciation about Saiyans being too powerful for such "parlour tricks". Yeah, sure. I take it hitting a particularly sensitive area like the groin wouldn't do anything either because you're just such a limitless juggernaut who I'm guessing doesn't even need to eat or breathe anymore.

Sorry about the petty rant there. I don't like this side of Vegeta because I find it to be one of his less appealing personality traits. I guess props to anyone who's enjoying it. Right now I'm hoping Granolah can somehow shift the tide back his favour but that's not looking very likely. Does Vegeta kill him at the end? Hopefully not. I'm having more genuine curiosity about Granolah's abilities than Vegeta or Goku's right now.

I think Granolah will reveal the secrets of the wish(by show of power) and be pushed into activating the best technique he got from the wish.
Ultra Instinct!

It's simple. Granolah wished to be the greatest warrior in the Universe (excluding Gods)
If he was made stronger than Goku, he would be stronger than the technique and forms of said characters.
However Granolah got more than power he got techniques...

He learned Bukujutsu, ki sensing and Hakai(from Vegeta since he was able to Hakai a small pebble as the time of the wish)
He got Moros move, either because Moro was top tier(even dead) or 73 still has his power)
And he likey got Gokus moves too, and what better move than UI?

Granolah has done what appears to be the Hakai 5 times now( 2 in 70, 1 in 72, and 2 in 74)

He even comments on Vegetas destructive technique(Hakai) and does the same move with just one boulder, AND it releases the "heaps of energy" that Beerus describes the move to do.
For all the people that think it's just a normal Ki explosion. WHY did Toyo zoom in on Granolahs hand Everytime he did it? WHY did Granolah also do a teleportation move against Goku?
Why did Goku himself say "Vegeta do you think he has OUR Techniques?(in 72)

WHY did Granolah have Moros move, if people think Granolah just is all power like Jiren?

It's called foreshadowing!

The Cerealiean dragon balls are just like 0G-73 and that they are literary devices(duez ex machina)

Granolah is basically Moro 2.0

I expect Granolah to use Ultra Instinct and destroy Vegeta

Then we have a round 2 with UI Goku vs UI Granolah
Then the Heeters stuff could happen imo.

[Charlie's Shadow]

Should have aimed for the man's brachial plexus or tibilias anterior muscle. Gohan's fight with Cell taught us that you lose half your strength when you have only one arm (presumably hand too)... right? Knowing Toyotaro, Vegeta would shrug it off and go on a blusterous enunciation about Saiyans being too powerful for such "parlour tricks". Yeah, sure. I take it hitting a particularly sensitive area like the groin wouldn't do anything either because you're just such a limitless juggernaut who I'm guessing doesn't even need to eat or breathe anymore.

Sorry about the petty rant there. I don't like this side of Vegeta because I find it to be one of his less appealing personality traits. I guess props to anyone who's enjoying it. Right now I'm hoping Granolah can somehow shift the tide back his favour but that's not looking very likely. Does Vegeta kill him at the end? Hopefully not. I'm having more genuine curiosity about Granolah's abilities than Vegeta or Goku's right now.

I think Granolah will reveal the secrets of the wish(by show of power) and be pushed into activating the best technique he got from the wish.
Ultra Instinct!

It's simple. Granolah wished to be the greatest warrior in the Universe (excluding Gods)
If he was made stronger than Goku, he would be stronger than the technique and forms of said characters.
However Granolah got more than power he got techniques...

He learned Bukujutsu, ki sensing and Hakai(from Vegeta since he was able to Hakai a small pebble as the time of the wish)
He got Moros move, either because Moro was top tier(even dead) or 73 still has his power)
And he likey got Gokus moves too, and what better move than UI?

Granolah has done what appears to be the Hakai 5 times now( 2 in 70, 1 in 72, and 2 in 74)

He even comments on Vegetas destructive technique(Hakai) and does the same move with just one boulder, AND it releases the "heaps of energy" that Beerus describes the move to do.
For all the people that think it's just a normal Ki explosion. WHY did Toyo zoom in on Granolahs hand Everytime he did it? WHY did Granolah also do a teleportation move against Goku?
Why did Goku himself say "Vegeta do you think he has OUR Techniques?(in 72)

WHY did Granolah have Moros move, if people think Granolah just is all power like Jiren?

It's called foreshadowing!

The Cerealiean dragon balls are just like 0G-73 and that they are literary devices(duez ex machina)

Granolah is basically Moro 2.0

I expect Granolah to use Ultra Instinct and destroy Vegeta

Then we have a round 2 with UI Goku vs UI Granolah
Then the Heeters stuff could happen imo.

While I do think that Toyotaro does have some payoff in mind for the "Granola has known techniques" thing, I think the one you presented would be very unsatisfying. Vegeta getting a small time to shine just to get stomped again would be annoying and repetitive, and would undermine all the build-up he currently got. From a story writing perspective, it's not wise to undermine something you spent time building up and gave it focus.

There's also the issue of undermining ultra instinct by removing the "no emotion" requirement to use the technique.

I'm not saying that what you said can't happen. But it would be worse to the story, at least based on what I've said here.

[LoganForkHands73]

I can see Ultra Instinct Granola happening, though I hope it doesn't for the reasons Charlie listed. It would pretty much invalidate the entire climax of the Moro arc and everything established about Ultra Instinct, namely that it definitely isn't something any scrub can use willy-nilly. Now Granola has some understanding of how it works from Goku, perhaps he will be able to adapt himself to it, which may be somewhat more acceptable. I guess one thing worth adding is that Granola, so far, seems only able to use similar techniques to Hakai, Moro's magma eruption, etc, but it's left ambiguous whether they truly are the real deal. Though if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Anyway, it's oddly cathartic to see Vegeta absolutely curbstomp Granola. Granola lost some sympathy points when he made it clear he was aiming for complete Saiyan genocide with no room for reasoning. Even though Vegeta is the invading party in this situation and a battle-crazed asshole, the choreography sells the current power differential wonderfully, as Cipher eloquently put it. I guess it's nice to see the protagonists take an enemy seriously from the start. Although the arc is obviously far from done, it would be great to see a decisive victory rather than a predictable "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat" twisteroony, another Moro specialty.

By all appearances, it seems there's little doubt that Vegeta has surpassed Goku and I'm here for it. His decision to walk a different path actually paid off. I'd wager that Hakaishin power is easier to master than Ultra Instinct, but Ultra Instinct has a much higher ceiling.