What Retcon Would You Undo *Or* Tweak?

[WittyUsername]

No, it's called retroactive continuity. The continuity has to be altered. Goku being an alien does not contradict anything that was previously written, so it is not a retcon.

Retroactive continuity means that new information is presented in a story that can be retroactively applied to earlier parts of the story. It doesn’t need to be a contradiction. The idea that #16 is based on Dr. Gero’s dead son is in the same boat. It doesn’t contradict anything we see in the manga, but it does place Dr. Gero’s seeming protectiveness over #16 and the android’s pacifistic nature in a new light.

[MyVisionity]

The continuity itself must be changed. 16 being Gero's dead son and Goku being an alien do not affect the continuity, and therefore are not retcons. It's not just about new interpretations of old material.

[ABED]

No, it's called retroactive continuity. The continuity has to be altered. Goku being an alien does not contradict anything that was previously written, so it is not a retcon.

Retroactive continuity means that new information is presented in a story that can be retroactively applied to earlier parts of the story. It doesn’t need to be a contradiction. The idea that #16 is based on Dr. Gero’s dead son is in the same boat. It doesn’t contradict anything we see in the manga, but it does place Dr. Gero’s seeming protectiveness over #16 and the android’s pacifistic nature in a new light.

It does otherwise it's just a reveal

A reveal gives the audience new information, a retcon pretends the information was always there and the characters knew it.

Reveal - Goku is an alien
Retcon - On That '70s Show, Donna is an only child when there was an episode or two where we saw she has a younger sister.

[WittyUsername]

No, it's called retroactive continuity. The continuity has to be altered. Goku being an alien does not contradict anything that was previously written, so it is not a retcon.

Retroactive continuity means that new information is presented in a story that can be retroactively applied to earlier parts of the story. It doesn’t need to be a contradiction. The idea that #16 is based on Dr. Gero’s dead son is in the same boat. It doesn’t contradict anything we see in the manga, but it does place Dr. Gero’s seeming protectiveness over #16 and the android’s pacifistic nature in a new light.

It does otherwise it's just a reveal

A reveal gives the audience new information, a retcon pretends the information was always there and the characters knew it.

Reveal - Goku is an alien
Retcon - On That '70s Show, Donna is an only child when there was an episode or two where we saw she has a younger sister.

If that’s the case, than Beerus telling Freeza to destroy the Saiyans isn’t a retcon either. We’re never shown how Freeza comes to that conclusion in the manga, other than that he feared the Saiyans, which still lines up with the Beerus explanation.

[ABED]

I don't know about that. Perhaps, but this made it seem as though he did so because of an order and not of fear of losing his power. I'm willing to concede that some of these examples aren't clearcut.

As for 16 looking like Gero's son. I would consider that a clear retcon. Dr. Gero is out for revenge and he wants Goku to know why he is doing the things he's doing. Why keep that vital piece of information from his enemy?

[WittyUsername]

I don't know about that. Perhaps, but this made it seem as though he did so because of an order and not of fear of losing his power. I'm willing to concede that some of these examples aren't clearcut.

Freeza voices his concern over the Super Saiyan God legend, which Beerus presumably told him about. It still seems like Freeza was concerned about the Saiyans potentially being a threat. Beerus apparently just planted at least some of those concerns in his head.

[ABED]

But he now knows he's not the real power in the universe. It's not the story of a king fearing an uprising. And Freeza didn't fear a Super Saiyan God, he feared a Super Saiyan.

[WittyUsername]

But he now knows he's not the real power in the universe. It's not the story of a king fearing an uprising. And Freeza didn't fear a Super Saiyan God, he feared a Super Saiyan.

He mentions Super Saiyan God in Minus.

[ABED]

But he now knows he's not the real power in the universe. It's not the story of a king fearing an uprising. And Freeza didn't fear a Super Saiyan God, he feared a Super Saiyan.

He mentions Super Saiyan God in Minus.

I mean his fear was Super Saiyan. If Beerus told him about Super Saiyan God, then that's a retcon. There's no mention of SSG in the Freeza arc.

[nhienphan2808]

I find it funny people who say Minus made Goku a Superman rip-off and Bardock a Jor-el never read comics and don't know anything about Superman.
Superman's orgins were rewritten a dozen times in comics since 1940 and in all of those, Jor-el was an elite scientist. He was special, and had a voice among his people. And all involves a mission statement to Clark by him Escape, honor the Krypton culture, and lead the people of Earth to heroism. Superman is a Knightly figure with a mission and burden.

You know which Bardock is "special" in that he randomly is powerful and "elite" enough that Freeza's goons had to look for his team ? Not Minus Bardock., who is only a bit nicer among his comrades and not stronger or elite in anyway.

You know which Goku is also burdened by a mission of revenge and bring honor back to the Saiyans, signed by his father? Not Minus Goku, who was sent to Earth for his safety only.

Not every "dad sent son to another planet to escape destruction" story is a Superman story. The TV Special is EVERYTHING you all accused Minus of.

[Grimlock]

Jor-el was an elite scientist.

And so was Bardock...

You know which Bardock is "special" in that he randomly is powerful and "elite" enough that Freeza's goons had to look for his team ? Not Minus Bardock., who is only a bit nicer among his comrades and not stronger or elite in anyway.

Both. Because Toriyama said Bardock was in the upper rank as far as a low-class soldier can go. He also said that most Saiyans are low-class warriors. So that pretty much establishes him as a strong warrior (above most and below approximately twelve Saiyans, as Toriyama also said that there were about ten mid-class Saiyans and only King Vegeta and Vegeta are elite-class Saiyans). Bardock might not be as powerful as he was in the TV Special, but he's still strong nonetheless.

[nhienphan2808]

My point is TV Special Bardock is still more Superman than anything Minus cooked up and not every story like that is a Superman story. You all complain all the time without asking yourself why would Toriyama have to go out of his way to make Goku as non heroic as possible WHILE making him a Superman and ACTUALLY read a Superman comic in your life.

[PurestEvil]

My point is TV Special Bardock is still more Superman than anything Minus cooked up and not every story like that is a Superman story. You all complain all the time without asking yourself why would Toriyama have to go out of his way to make Goku as non heroic as possible WHILE making him a Superman and ACTUALLY read a Superman comic in your life.

I thought minus Bardock was supposed to be Superman’s father

[nhienphan2808]

My point is TV Special Bardock is still more Superman than anything Minus cooked up and not every story like that is a Superman story. You all complain all the time without asking yourself why would Toriyama have to go out of his way to make Goku as non heroic as possible WHILE making him a Superman and ACTUALLY read a Superman comic in your life.

I thought minus Bardock was supposed to be Superman’s father

I thought you had better argument than nitpicking my words.

[PurestEvil]

My point is TV Special Bardock is still more Superman than anything Minus cooked up and not every story like that is a Superman story. You all complain all the time without asking yourself why would Toriyama have to go out of his way to make Goku as non heroic as possible WHILE making him a Superman and ACTUALLY read a Superman comic in your life.

I thought minus Bardock was supposed to be Superman’s father

I thought you had better argument than nitpicking my words.

I thought you knew how to read jokes, gosh

[The Monkey King]

Not sure why people think DB- is a retcon. The Bardock Special was Toei-produced.

Personally, it would be Super Saiyan Bargain Sale.

Because Toriyama was so impressed by the special that he decided to incorporate it into the manga.
These scene is literally taken straight from the Bardock special, the average DB fan would have good reason to believe it was canon.





Also Bardock's death scene from DBS Broly is 100% a retcon because he looks different than he does in the manga and Freeza recognises Bardock unlike in DBS Broly where they had no such confrontation.

As for the topic I would retcon DB- , it's inferior to the Bardock special in every way. It was handled a bit better in the DBS Broly movie though.

[Gaffer Tape]

Of course I can't contribute to this thread without it devolving into an argument about what a retcon is. And despite me having to jump into the trenches for years just on this board alone, I have yet to see any official dictionary definition of the word that insists or intimates there it must create an internal contradiction. There is no such stipulation because it has nothing to do with what a retcon is. It can have such an effect, but that's correlation, not cause. Goku being an alien is a retcon because it is information that did not exist that is being retroactively positioned in the story. It is not a "reveal" because nothing was held back from the audience in the first place. It is information that is being added and treated as if it has always been there.

But, yes. That is my choice of retcon to undo. There were three full years in the story where Goku was *not* an alien before he was rewritten to always be one. I've always been curious as to where the story would have gone without that. Given his long-lived second banana status nowadays, I wonder if we would have gotten a Vegeta equivalent, or if Toriyama would have been forced to further develop Piccolo or Tenshinhan into that role. Would we have gone down the endless transformation rabbit hole, or would other types of power-ups been utilized?

[ABED]

Of course I can't contribute to this thread without it devolving into an argument about what a retcon is. And despite me having to jump into the trenches for years just on this board alone, I have yet to see any official dictionary definition of the word that insists or intimates there it must create an internal contradiction. There is no such stipulation because it has nothing to do with what a retcon is. It can have such an effect, but that's correlation, not cause. Goku being an alien is a retcon because it is information that did not exist that is being retroactively positioned in the story. It is not a "reveal" because nothing was held back from the audience in the first place. It is information that is being added and treated as if it has always been there.

And if you can't agree on your terms, how productive is the conversation. Nothing devolved. And you've in effect switched the definitions. A retcon requires a contradiction because that's what continuity in this context means. Continuity is about consistency of elements such as plots and details. Goku's origins were a mystery for years. That information was held back from the audience. When Toriyama knew Goku was an alien is irrelevant.

[Gaffer Tape]

And if you can't agree on your terms, how productive is the conversation. Nothing devolved.

My point is, when these conversations get hung up on the minutiae of debating the definition of the term, the thread often stops being about the topic. I'd much rather get a chance to discuss the narrative implications of the retcon I chose than have to defend whether or not it counts as a retcon (which it totally does). I guess I've just become weary at having the same fruitless debate for a second consecutive decade when there is an interesting topic to be had here.

[PurestEvil]

Not sure why people think DB- is a retcon. The Bardock Special was Toei-produced.

Personally, it would be Super Saiyan Bargain Sale.

Because Toriyama was so impressed by the special that he decided to incorporate it into the manga.
These scene is literally taken straight from the Bardock special, the average DB fan would have good reason to believe it was canon.





Also Bardock's death scene from DBS Broly is 100% a retcon because he looks different than he does in the manga and Freeza recognises Bardock unlike in DBS Broly where they had no such confrontation.

As for the topic I would retcon DB- , it's inferior to the Bardock special in every way. It was handled a bit better in the DBS Broly movie though.

It acknowledged Bardock’s resistance against Freeza, but none of the events beforehand. Speaking of death scenes, that manga panel of Bardock dying is also different from the Toei special.