"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[theherodjl]

Nah, I don't conversate with people who echo the talking points and derogatory statements of that racist, homophobe, Cornette.

Okay then. I'm glad we agree that getting mad over the decline of the wrestling business is silly.

[Mr Baggins]

Whenever I see leaks being taken out of context, I'm routinely reminded that some things never change. It honestly kills me to see this fandom harassing artists over their work or obsessing over a character's track record. Dragon Ball was never about track records, wins or score keeping. I'm surprised it needed to be said.

Anyway, I haven't talked about Vegeta's form much until now. I actually like it a lot. Its design is intentionally rough and unsightly, which suits Vegeta's personality, and its mechanics fit his fighting style -- Ultra Ego is the exact opposite of Ultra Instinct, so it makes sense that they would use similar naming conventions as sister techniques.

That said, all this could easily have been condensed. We've basically gone over 150 pages (three and a half chapters) of Granolah being angsty, info exchanges about things the reader already knows, and mindless action that only dripfeeds its plot progression, character development or even the mildest sense of thematic payoff. It's not terribly offensive or anything, it's just really fucking vapid. These are monthly chapters that contain the content of your average weekly chapter that future readers can probably skip on re-reads without missing much at all. For ongoing readers, a quarter of a year is an awfully long time to wait for any kind of substance.

Toriyama would never do this, and Toyotaro has never done it to this extent. You can pick any random part of the original manga and see a lot of things transpire in 150 pages, even if it's all part of the same fight. What we're getting here is more like what the DBZ anime does where it's just a drawn-out battle sequence with things happening in extremely sparse bits and pieces.

Above all else, what DB should never be is boring.

On to brighter things: I want to see how the Heeters play into this, because unlike Granolah right now, they're actually pretty interesting. I'm not surprised Toriyama came up with those characters.

[somelgaster10]

In spanish official translation is not "ultra ego", but "mega instinto" (mega instinct).

Vegeta: "Si Kakaroto es un ególatra, yo soy un egocéntrico. Puedes llamarlo mega instinto" (If Kakarot is an egomaniac, I am egotistical. You can call it mega instinct).

[TKA]

Dunno if there are any 5D's fans here (wow, that ended a decade and 5 months ago), but it sure is funny that Goku now has Clear Mind and Vegeta has Burning Soul.



It's amusing seeing Dragonball adopt concepts from contemporary anime, when for the last 20 years it's been the other way around.

That said, all this could easily have been condensed. We've basically gone over 150 pages (three and a half chapters) of Granolah being angsty, info exchanges about things the reader already knows, and mindless action that only dripfeeds its plot progression, character development or even the mildest sense of thematic payoff. It's not terribly offensive or anything, it's just really fucking vapid. These are monthly chapters that contain the content of your average weekly chapter that future readers can probably skip on re-reads without missing much at all. For ongoing readers, a quarter of a year is an awfully long time to wait for any kind of substance.
[/quote

Well said. I always enjoy seeing people say what I said but in less words. I'm very long-winded.

[Alruneia]

Oh yeah, spoilers because it's discussing leaks.

Spoiler:

I'm... starting to think it's seriously about time we move on from this first act and start getting into the second act and the twists it'll have to bring, because this is getting kinda silly at this point. Not that I had any particular expectations about Vegeta's performance with his ugly form, but I was hoping that the fight would end through an interruption because of the Heeters' actions, and I was hoping that that would happen in this chapter, bringing the first act of the arc to an end. I'll withhold my judgment until the full chapter comes out tomorrow, in case something significant happens that the leaks haven't shown us, though.

The chapter was fun with a bunch of action and all that, but I have to say that what I wrote here still stands. This arc feels slow. I appreciate the high-octane fighting, but I want the plot to actually move forwards too. Elec and his gang only barely start making their move at the very end of the chapter, when really, they could've been much further along by now. I really feel like nothing's actually "happening" despite everything that's happening.

[Cipher]

Because it makes him stronger, while also making him damaged and more tired? I don't know how he can feel stronger like this, seems like a paradox.

Obviously he's channeling Goku from the TV series Tournament of Power, who also fights more to become less tired.

These are the truly advanced techniques.

[Omgzord]

Also what with the bullshit new eye? Didn't the dragon unlock all of his power already, what was the point of that then?

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 75:

- "Get ready for a dose of my tough love." Hahahahahahahahahaha. That is the most unintentionally hilarious line Vegeta has ever spouted out.

- Ultra Ego. You know what... it actually works because it fits Vegeta's character. I can dig it.

- Ah, Vegeta has succumbed to the classic case of getting high on your own supply (power-wise). Also known as "Gohan Syndrome".

- Oh man, this arc is going through the exact same major problem the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc is going through... a lot of stuff is happening, but nothing is actually happening. I can't help but feel the plot has ground to an absolute halt for the last few months. Vegeta beating Granolah around had its charm to it initially, but it's gone for way too long. It's just boring now. The confrontation between those two could have easily been condensed into a single chapter or even half a chapter with some really clever writing. For a monthly manga, this is not good pacing at all.

Overall thoughts... a change of scenery is really needed.

[TKA]

Also what with the bullshit new eye? Didn't the dragon unlock all of his power already, what was the point of that then?

What you're meant to take from this is that his power increases as people stronger than him appear. If your wish is to always be the strongest, then every time someone stronger than you shows up, you'll become stronger than them.

Or in other words

[TheSaiyanGod]

I don't understand Vegeta's new form tho. Like why doesn't he dodge at all? Not dodging automatically like UI is one thing, but Vegeta is taking all this damage on purpose.

Taking damage rile up Vegeta's fighting spirit, and this is the catalyst for his new power. The more his spirit burns, the stronger he gets. It's similar to the weird zenkais that Black suffered in the anime (but in this case, it's closely tied to Vegeta's mindset/new form and has a actual mechanic behind it).

However, at times Vegeta just seemed to be purposefully taking the damage to show off this mechanic to Granolah, he didn't necessarily need it because he already had the upper hand. It looks like a much better gimmick when used to boost Vegeta's power during casual damage taken in battle (rather than he purposefully taking all this damage) or when he is weaker than the opponent, as that damage naturally takes his stamina and wears him down. But he says in the chapter that it's the first time he's used this power, so I don't think he had an exact notion of its limits.

[ObnoxiousNamek]

I’m guessing Oatmeal will fuse with 73 and become the big bad of this arc. The DBS version of Ultron lol

[kemuri07]

Oh yeah, spoilers because it's discussing leaks.

Spoiler:

I'm... starting to think it's seriously about time we move on from this first act and start getting into the second act and the twists it'll have to bring, because this is getting kinda silly at this point. Not that I had any particular expectations about Vegeta's performance with his ugly form, but I was hoping that the fight would end through an interruption because of the Heeters' actions, and I was hoping that that would happen in this chapter, bringing the first act of the arc to an end. I'll withhold my judgment until the full chapter comes out tomorrow, in case something significant happens that the leaks haven't shown us, though.

The chapter was fun with a bunch of action and all that, but I have to say that what I wrote here still stands. This arc feels slow. I appreciate the high-octane fighting, but I want the plot to actually move forwards too. Elec and his gang only barely start making their move at the very end of the chapter, when really, they could've been much further along by now. I really feel like nothing's actually "happening" despite everything that's happening.

It only feels slow because we're going one chapter a month. I guarantee this will move at a remarkably faster pace once the collected volume comes out.

[kemuri07]

Also what with the bullshit new eye? Didn't the dragon unlock all of his power already, what was the point of that then?

What you're meant to take from this is that his power increases as people stronger than him appear. If your wish is to always be the strongest, then every time someone stronger than you shows up, you'll become stronger than them.

Or in other words

Right. Which absolutely upends the idea that many of us had that he was going to get his comeuppance here. Apparently being the strongest means exactly that.

Again..what I love about what Toyotaro is doing--and I've said this multiple times--is upending the rules that DBZ has often lived by: stronger forms=stronger character. But what do you do when a character has made him objectively the strongest that he gets stronger everytime he fights someone? It's going to be interesting how this arc settles that.

Because it makes him stronger, while also making him damaged and more tired? I don't know how he can feel stronger like this, seems like a paradox.

I think it makes sense. Compare him to Goku's UI, a form that relies on ducking and dodging and managing power. Vegeta is, in RPG terms, the tank: a bruiser that can take an unbelievable amount of damage. However it's also clear, especially this early in the story, that Vegeta has some kinks to work out. Also...again, anyone noticed how unhinged Vegeta looked here. Seriously the man was practically ectasy telling Granola that he was about to blow up the planet. It's looking like this arc might actually do something with Goku and Vegeta choosing different paths.

[LightBing]

Great chapter.

- Glad Dragon Ball is becoming more interesting with their powers, Ultra Ego is way better than SSJ(insert color).

- The fighting has been excellent can't complain, but it's a bit much. The problem has been the distribution, the arc started with set up and barely any conflict now it's been 3/4 chapters of violence. We could probably have reach this point with one less chapter of fighting.

- Granolah has fallen the boring route, even throwing away his friendly A.I. The evolution of his power is contrary to the theme of him not training and not earning it. If he can just improve that much during battle, why bring it up? Did Toyotarõ changed his mind or did he need to find an excuse to stop Vegeta?

- Hopefully the Heeters, Oatmeal, Goku and Monaito change the current dynamic, let's take a break from fighting. It's pretty wide open.
Not sure how I would feel about Gas getting the same wish as Granolah if it happens.

[Omgzord]

Also what with the bullshit new eye? Didn't the dragon unlock all of his power already, what was the point of that then?

What you're meant to take from this is that his power increases as people stronger than him appear. If your wish is to always be the strongest, then every time someone stronger than you shows up, you'll become stronger than them.

Or in other words

That's nonsense tho. The dragons literally just "unlocked" the latent potential he could have achieved in his lifetime.
There is no such rule such as "I will be stronger when stronger people appear"

[kemuri07]

Great chapter.

- Glad Dragon Ball is becoming more interesting with their powers, Ultra Ego is way better than SSJ(insert color).

- The fighting has been excellent, can't complain but it's a bit much. The problem has been the distribution, the arc started with set up and barely any conflict, now it's been 3/4 chapters of violence. We could probably have reach this point with one less chapter of fighting.

- Granolah has fallen the boring route, even throwing away his friendly A.I. The evolution of his power is contrary to the theme of him not training and not earning it. If he can just improve that much during battle, why bring it up? Did Toyotarõ changed his mind or did he need to find an excuse to stop Vegeta?

- Hopefully the Heeters, Oatmeal, Goku and Monaito change the current dynamic, let's take a break from fighting. It's pretty wide open.
Not sure how I would feel about Gas getting the same wish as Granolah if it happens.

To be fair, the chapter was always vague about what it meant when it said that Granolah was the strongest. I think Toyo is playing with expectations here. Most of us were assuming that, while Granolah would likely win this bout, that he would grow frustrated over dealing with characters who actively train. The twist is that the wish is actually what it is--Granolah is the strongest, and therefore gets stronger on the fly.

Which will force Goku and Vegeta to approach this character differentially.

[kemuri07]

Also what with the bullshit new eye? Didn't the dragon unlock all of his power already, what was the point of that then?

What you're meant to take from this is that his power increases as people stronger than him appear. If your wish is to always be the strongest, then every time someone stronger than you shows up, you'll become stronger than them.

Or in other words

That's nonsense tho. The dragons literally just "unlocked" the latent potential he could have achieved in his lifetime.
There is no such rule such as "I will be stronger when stronger people appear"

which of course includes power that he could have achieved if he trained like Goku and Vegeta. Which means that whatever limitations his powers may have...we certainly aren't anywhere close to it.

[TKA]

Vegeta is, in RPG terms, the tank: a bruiser that can take an unbelievable amount of damage.

I wouldn't even call Vegeta a tank. Soaking up damage isn't really his bag. His thing is that he has an insane pain threshold. Since the first fight he had in the series where he took a spirit bomb, a 4x kaioken kamehameha and fought an Oozaru before his body gave out, all the way to him frightening Pure Buu with how willing he is to fight despite barely being able to stand. Tanks are made for taking damage, but Vegeta is like everyone else, except that he won't let himself stay down. The difference between Durability and Endurance, really.

Also, don't use the words "ecstasy" and "kink" when talking about taking damage. Brings something else entirely to mind.

That's nonsense tho. The dragons literally just "unlocked" the latent potential he could have achieved in his lifetime.
There is no such rule such as "I will be stronger when stronger people appear"

Nobody in this thread has complained about the rules of this wish not making sense more than I have. This chapter pretty clearly wants you to think that's how it works though, with Granolah busting out the destruction technique Vegeta used last chapter and gaining a new power that lets him win.

[Hugo Boss]

Seems it wasn’t as disappointing as the leaks suggested. There was a interesting dynamic between their individual growth. Innate power is not so easy to bring on. And more importantly they didn’t have opportunity to test their newfound power. Now they are able to realize how far they can go, though I think Vegeta won’t be able to continue on his own as Goku will probably get involved.

[Sora Saiyan]

Also what with the bullshit new eye? Didn't the dragon unlock all of his power already, what was the point of that then?

What you're meant to take from this is that his power increases as people stronger than him appear. If your wish is to always be the strongest, then every time someone stronger than you shows up, you'll become stronger than them.

Or in other words

I personally don't believe that's the case here. Monaito and Vegeta both make it sound like his wish was foolish because it only refers to a fixed point in time. Monaito states "You may be the strongest today, but you don't know who or what tomorrow will bring" and Vegeta states "Stongest? Second strongest? Rankings are well and good.. but they only reflect a moment in time, once that moment has passed its nothing but history". Now Vegeta doesn't know the wish, but Monaito does, and due to him also having a connection to the Dragonballs he likely knows that Granolah can still be surpassed.

I'm sure this will be answered in the future. The inky thing I can think of currently is that Granolahs 150 years off his life is what allowed him to be the strongest in the Universe but if he continues mastering his craft during the remaining three he may still get stronger. Potential in DB has always been a bit whacky, but I do hope this is cleared up, along with the dragon being capable of making such a wish. The only thing that slightly explains that for me currently is that Monaito knew Granolah had to have accepted a proposal made by the dragon to get that level of power, but that isn't really any true confirmation.