Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 86 - DBZ 218-222

[NitroEX]

I tend to agree that Funimation did make a bit of a mess translating and adapting certain things for their dub, whether that be due to genuine mistakes interpreting the original language or questionable Americanizing/localising of certain names. For example, I still find it difficult to accept 'Omega Shenron' (or the rest of the evil dragons for that matter) as well as seeing terms like Nimbus, Power Pole, and Icarus as legitimate despite them being prevalent in games and anime. The lack of understanding when it came to the Chinese words in the original led to us getting stuck with Shenron instead of Shen Long which is a little annoying. As I've gotten older it also became apparent how clumsy sounding some of our attack names were, with "Destructo Disc" being one of the more egregious, I'd have definitely preferred a Kienzan in that particular case, and then there's something like Hercule which, I can understand for censorship reasons but ultimately feels out of place once you realize the naming pattern. I've since echoed the sentiment that Count Dante (or Mr. Dante) would have been a better option to accommodate the devil naming scheme for his family. It also would have been a cool reference to the real Count Dante who was supposedly quite similar to the Dragon Ball character.

But getting back to the point, the missing pun issue with certain characters (PuiPui, Burter, Jeice etc) could also have been handled better in hindsight and a correction could have been made without it negatively impacting the product.

That said, while I do agree that a lot can be fixed I can also sympathize with the point of view that perhaps not every name needed a direct English equivalent. The first reason basically echoes this:

unless there's no good alternative (for instance, Krillin's name is a double-layered bald joke - the closest English equivalents would be like, Cuelin or Egglin and um, NO).

In trying to adapt an English name for every single pun I imagine it would leave at least a few examples that just wouldn't be workable and ironically result in a few sounding even more distracting than a Japanese name. I accept that I'm biased but I think I'd have preferred a name like Gohan or Tien/Tenshinhan to any possible English alternatives that focused on food. I'm also willing to give some ground to the "rule of cool" or the feeling of what's appropriate when and if a pun isn't workable. A Japanese or Chinese name is often just more appropriate sounding for a martial arts anime given the Asian cultural motif in both the look of the characters and what they do, which brings me to the next point. I personally wouldn't want that Asian cultural tone to be totally erased from the script, and I would have to agree with Visionity on this point (albeit not in regards to PuiPui specifically).

If you change Puipui's name, not only are you robbing the character of his own identity, you are also robbing the series of its cultural identity. That's an awful pattern to establish and reinforce.

The point being that enacting essentially a no-tolerance policy for Asian names would probably result in a script that feels slightly less culturally distinct and that's probably not the best way to translate the show. We can see this with the evil/shadow dragons and their elemental based naming scheme wiping away the ancient Chinese cultural vibe that they gave off in the original. So while the motivation for adapting English names might come from a place of wanting to be accurate and more clear, it may bring with it its own pitfalls and should be carefully considered. But again, that isn't to say I wouldn't prefer better use of puns where feasible, it would really have to be considered on a case by case basis.

Thinking back to attack names, something like Makankosappo never struck me as adequate for an English version as the name needs to convey the function of the technique to an audience (namely the drilling aspect), but Special Beam Cannon is also just flawed and funny-sounding and isn't useful either, so something better could have been devised instead. It really just depends on the context and what or who the name is for.

On a side note, the Blue Water dub retained more than a few Asian names such as Nyoibo which felt rather appropriate.

[Robo4900]

Um...that's why I clarified as close as possible. Obviously it's impossible to get a 1:1 translation, and as I said in the very same post you quoted, it's ultimately not essential or important.

It's a mistake to attempt to recreate the experience in any capacity. Because it's Japanese, you only end up compromising the original work by doing so. Especially in the context of the names, which are inherently Japanese.

Instead of trying to turn the Japanese experience into an English experience, why not try turning the English experience into a Japanese experience? That requires translators who are willing to trust audiences with the original content, and audiences who are willing to engage with it.

Or, the translator does their job and creates the closest English equivalent possible to the original.

Y'know. Because that's what a translation is supposed to be. The closest equivalent to the experience in the other language.

"Robbing the show of cultural identity" is a ludicrous thing to say here (I realise you said that in your last post); keep the spiritual/ki ideas from the original, keep the martial arts tone, etc. and you keep the cultural roots, but translate all words/terms/named/etc. that a Japanese viewer would be expected to understand into their best English equivalent and suddenly the English speakers can experience something Japanese, thus allowing an English speaker to immerse themselves in Japanese pop culture, which helps people understand Japanese culture by dint of understanding some of its most popular media. That's not "Robbing the show of its cultural identity", that's getting an insight into another culture. The exact opposite thing. And gatekeeping it by saying it's impossible to create a proper English language equivalent to anything said in the show (which it isn't), or that the English version should be made "more Japanese", thus harder to understand, is just bullshit.

Again, I direct you to the example of "You are my nakama". "You are my friend" is how any sane person would translate that. And the result is English speakers get to understand the work it's from. It's not cultural appropriation to enjoy content made by another country whose primarily language(s) you don't understand, and by the same token, the people who write subtitles and do English dubs of these works aren't committing cultural vandalism or anything like that. (Not typically anyway; I'd argue Funimation frequently did with their pre-Kai dubs, and arguably they continue to due to their tendency to keep consistency with their old dubs in various ways, such as their dumb attack names)

--

I will once again point out that my view on this is simply that, if a name can be cleanly rendered in English, it should. And in the case of PuiPui, it can easily be. In cases where it can't, leaving the original is fine. That's the extent of my feelings on it. In trivia, we criticised Funimation mainly as a fun pot shot at their failure (or refusal) to adapt the easy-as-pie-to-adapt name PuiPui, but the idea behind it is to point out the fact that Funimation back in those days wasn't interested in giving us Dragon Ball as Japanese fans got it, they just wanted a vaguely alien-sounding name to fit their '90s Hardcore Sci-Fi Action Cartoon DRAGON BALL ZEEEEEEE. So a whimsical name like PuiPui's is supposed to be is downplayed by leaving it impossible to understand as an English speaker, so it just sounds vauely alien. Just like Ginyu or Kami.

[MasenkoHA]

Again, I direct you to the example of "You are my nakama". "You are my friend" is how any sane person would translate that.

Which is, again, a terrible example and a false equivalence. Of course it would be weird for someone to say in English “You are my nakama” there is nothing weird or awkward about a character named PuiPui when he’s associated with the likes of Yakon and Dabura.

“If you wouldn’t leave pieces of dialog untranslated you wouldn’t leave a character’s name as is” isn’t the solid argument you think it is

Funimation back in those days wasn't interested in giving us Dragon Ball as Japanese fans got it, they just wanted a vaguely alien-sounding name to fit their '90s Hardcore Sci-Fi Action Cartoon DRAGON BALL ZEEEEEEE. So a whimsical name like PuiPui's is supposed to be is downplayed by leaving it impossible to understand as an English speaker, so it just sounds vauely alien. Just like Ginyu or Kami.

Again leaving his name exactly as it was in the Japanese version is somehow an example of “They’re trying to turn this whimsical Japanese Kung Fu cartoon into a hardcore Sci-fi cartoon” how? In what universe does that logic track? By not changing something they are actually changing something?

[Robo4900]

Which is, again, a terrible example and a false equivalence. Of course it would be weird for someone to say in English “You are my nakama” there is nothing weird or awkward about a character named PuiPui when he’s associated with the likes of Yakon and Dabura.

Sure, but the name works far better as Pocus, in the context of Bibidi, Babidi, Boo, and Dabra.*

*"Dabura" is much like "Bulla", or "Diaboromon" for a non-DB example, where the pun is even in English but Funimation decided to hide the joke. His name should be Dabra, as in "Abracadabra", similar to how PuiPui's name should be something like Pocus because that is closer to the original meaning than the meaningless combination of sounds his name ends up being in Funimation's English dub.

“If you wouldn’t leave pieces of dialog untranslated you wouldn’t leave a character’s name as is” isn’t the solid argument you think it is

I mean, once again, why not? Your best argument is "Because". The names have meaning, meaning that is obvious to Japanese people because these are literally Japanese words and phrases. You have no counter to this other than "but they're names", which is only relevant in your argument because you assert that it is, even though there's no reason for it.

Again leaving his name exactly as it was in the Japanese version is somehow an example of “They’re trying to turn this whimsical Japanese Kung Fu cartoon into a hardcore Sci-fi cartoon” how? In what universe does that logic track? By not changing something they are actually changing something?

For all of the reasons I have laid out repeatedly in pretty much every one of my posts in this thread since the OP (including earlier in this one, and in my last one). It didn't sink in any of the previous times, I don't see why I should bother explaining it yet again in hopes that it somehow penetrates your skull this time.

[MyVisionity]

Or, the translator does their job and creates the closest English equivalent possible to the original.

Y'know. Because that's what a translation is supposed to be. The closest equivalent to the experience in the other language.

Who says that a translation is supposed to create an equivalent experience? That's one type of translation, sure, but not every translation has to work that way.

"Robbing the show of cultural identity" is a ludicrous thing to say here (I realise you said that in your last post); keep the spiritual/ki ideas from the original, keep the martial arts tone, etc. and you keep the cultural roots, but translate all words/terms/named/etc. that a Japanese viewer would be expected to understand into their best English equivalent and suddenly the English speakers can experience something Japanese, thus allowing an English speaker to immerse themselves in Japanese pop culture, which helps people understand Japanese culture by dint of understanding some of its most popular media. That's not "Robbing the show of its cultural identity", that's getting an insight into another culture. The exact opposite thing. And gatekeeping it by saying it's impossible to create a proper English language equivalent to anything said in the show (which it isn't), or that the English version should be made "more Japanese", thus harder to understand, is just bullshit.

The names and terminology are just as much a part of the cultural identity as anything else. If the English audience has difficulty understanding anything, so be it. It's a Japanese show. You don't try and make it "less Japanese" just so English audiences can have an easier time with it.

Gaining insight into another culture involves being exposed to things that people may not easily understand, such as a foreign language. It's not supposed to feel familiar or comfortable. It also may take some effort in order for people to fully understand the meaning, which is part of the learning process. To deny the audience this process is to deny them from any cultural understanding, on top of denying the cultural identity of the series.