The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

[pepd]

For some reason the "presented arguments" matter to people, but who or what will back them up? There's no official statement about anything so what are they going to do? How is everyone going to reach a consensus? How are they going to convince the ones in the "wrong side"? This is what I'd like to know.

Time placement matters to me. It is an essential part of the plot to determine certain aspects of the series. I'm always talking about years (AGE) in Dragon Ball. But that feeling doesn't seem to be shared among the "authorities" as lots of problems are made with it as well as among the fans, as not everyone (seems to be willing to) discuss about that. What am I going to do? How am I going to make everyone care about time placement? For now, I can only accept the reality that time placement isn't an important (as it should be) topic to discuss and I'm okay with that. So is it really that difficult to do the same with canon? To just accept that, like VegettoEX said, this is nothing but an "existencial nothingness" and move on?


The whole point is: there is no canon. No one (besides the fans) cares about canon. Nobody can answer questions like this thread's name. Pick a continuity you like the most and go be happy. But try not to vocalize an opinion as if it was a fact (like "that's not cannon!" - if you do, I'll be there to rhetorically ask for a source!).

I'm not sure if you are mixing my comments with someone else's, misread me or just turned my comments into a discussion you wanted to have, but again, I haven't pointed anything to be canon, was just arguing about the specific points you made.

I and most I've seen here don't pretend to dictate what is canon and what is not to everyone else, people are interested and ask or want to discuss it, and people give their take. There is no official canon in DBS, we all know that. The continuity I chose is Tori's DB, it got messy and I tried to figure out which one is closer; I don't care to convince people to do the same or care about it if they don't. You say pick what you want and enjoy, but ironically seem to want to dictate that nothing is canon (and therefore effectively everything is).

[Miracles]

Think of it this way; if anyone wants to know what Bulma's favorite ice cream is [or whether she even eats it] they would have to get the answer from her creator. Since he is the authority [canon] of Dragonball, Akira Toriyama.

But is that how things really work, though? Because Dragon Ball Z Kakarot adapted the Majin Buu saga for Trunks that only exists in the manga so far. We have no confirmation that said saga was based on a Toriyama outline, for all we know, Toyotaro could have been the one who wrote it all (especially if we take into consideration how Toei handled this in the anime). That may imply Toyotaro could also be the one answering what Bulma's favorite ice cream is. In other words, Toyotaro may also have a voice in certain things.

As the authority, we know Toriyama fact checks Toyotaro's storyboards. So the world Toyotoro writes has to be in line with Toriyama's Dragonball. If Toriyama crowned Trunks Majin Buu story from the Super manga as canonical Dragonball, adding it into his own writings, then thus says Toriyama.

For example, Toriyama made Bardock [A TOEI original] canon, when he added him into his authoritative manga. The standard for all Dragonball.

[Tai Lung]

I didn't say that it is evidence that it is canon; in fact, I explicitly said that I was not arguing that it is canon. What it is, is evidence of different facts that are relevant and decisive for the discussion (more involvement and satisfaction by Toriyama, more fidelity from Toyotaro, continuity in/consistencies, etc)

if we go, that's why there are facts that contradict each other in manga and movies ... even though the movies are written by the author

[Skar]

I and most I've seen here don't pretend to dictate what is canon and what is not to everyone else, people are interested and ask or want to discuss it, and people give their take. There is no official canon in DBS, we all know that. The continuity I chose is Tori's DB, it got messy and I tried to figure out which one is closer; I don't care to convince people to do the same or care about it if they don't. You say pick what you want and enjoy, but ironically seem to want to dictate that nothing is canon (and therefore effectively everything is).

That's the way I feel about it. I don't think most fans care about canon and enjoy both versions without needing to discredit one as "less canon" than the other. It matters even less now since only version is still ongoing and I recall it's been said Toyotaro would be more involved if the anime returned. To some fans, only the original manga is canon since it's the source that started the franchise and everything else is a spin-off with varying degrees of involvement from Toriyama.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I and most I've seen here don't pretend to dictate what is canon and what is not to everyone else, people are interested and ask or want to discuss it, and people give their take. There is no official canon in DBS, we all know that. The continuity I chose is Tori's DB, it got messy and I tried to figure out which one is closer; I don't care to convince people to do the same or care about it if they don't. You say pick what you want and enjoy, but ironically seem to want to dictate that nothing is canon (and therefore effectively everything is).

That's the way I feel about it. I don't think most fans care about canon and enjoy both versions without needing to discredit one as "less canon" than the other. It matters even less now since only version is still ongoing and I recall it's been said Toyotaro would be more involved if the anime returned. To some fans, only the original manga is canon since it's the source that started the franchise and everything else is a spin-off with varying degrees of involvement from Toriyama.

This is my exact approach as well. I'm a fan of a lot of non-Dragon Ball properties also, and I take more or less this same approach with them. I think fans overvalue the importance of "canon" in general.

[PurestEvil]

“Canon” shouldn’t matter after 1995.

[Grimlock]

I and most I've seen here don't pretend to dictate what is canon and what is not to everyone else, people are interested and ask or want to discuss it, and people give their take.

Well, I see "this is canon/that's not canon" a lot here. What do people mean by saying such thing if it's not to dictate what's canonical and what's not, then?

You say pick what you want and enjoy, but ironically seem to want to dictate that nothing is canon (and therefore effectively everything is).

Yes. However, that is based on the fact that neither Akira Toriyama nor Shueisha have said anything about canonicity. That's the huge difference. Until we see/get something concrete, "nothing is canon, everything is canon" is the default approach. If we start deeming materials "canon/not canon" without evidences to back ourselves up and we do so all by ourselves, that's subjectivity. I will say Dragon Ball Online is canonical. Will you say the same? Will everyone start consider that game? Who would be right? Who would be wrong?

For example, Toriyama made Bardock [A TOEI original] canon, when he added him into his authoritative manga. The standard for all Dragonball.

Toyotaro made Yadorats (a Toei's design original) "canon", when he added them into his authoritative manga. The standard (?) for all Dragon Ball (?) Super (?).

And we know that decision only involves Toyotaro and Shueisha, Toriyama is no part of the equation here. Any suggestions on what we should do? Ignore that decision and Toei's Yadorats appearance completely? Accept that Toyotaro is becoming an authority? Impeach Toyotaro?

“Canon” shouldn’t matter after 1995.

Glad I'm canonical then! You think people born in 1996 and beyond will be retconned?

[Miracles]

For example, Toriyama made Bardock [A TOEI original] canon, when he added him into his authoritative manga. The standard for all Dragonball.

Toyotaro made Yadorats (a Toei's design original) "canon", when he added them into his authoritative manga. The standard (?) for all Dragon Ball (?) Super (?).

And we know that decision only involves Toyotaro and Shueisha, Toriyama is no part of the equation here. Any suggestions on what we should do? Ignore that decision and Toei's Yadorats appearance completely? Accept that Toyotaro is becoming an authority? Impeach Toyotaro?

Toriyama fact checks Toyotaro's storyboards. Those Yardrats had to get his authoritative [canon] approval first.

[Dragon Wukong]

For example, Toriyama made Bardock [A TOEI original] canon, when he added him into his authoritative manga. The standard for all Dragonball.

Toyotaro made Yadorats (a Toei's design original) "canon", when he added them into his authoritative manga. The standard (?) for all Dragon Ball (?) Super (?).

And we know that decision only involves Toyotaro and Shueisha, Toriyama is no part of the equation here. Any suggestions on what we should do? Ignore that decision and Toei's Yadorats appearance completely? Accept that Toyotaro is becoming an authority? Impeach Toyotaro?

Toriyama fact checks Toyotaro's storyboards. Those Yardrats had to get his authoritative [canon] approval first.

Including both of them was Uchida's decision, not Toriyama's (Uchida has a say as editor much like Toriyama's editors in the past had on DB as well). But yeah if Toriyama took issue with that he would have vetoed it.

The manga benefits from the fact it's just three people for the most part. Toriyama, Toyotaro, and Uchida.

[Grimlock]

Toriyama fact checks Toyotaro's storyboards. Those Yardrats had to get his authoritative [canon] approval first.

Again, Toriyama is not part of the equation. If Toyotaro had to get approval from Toriyama, we would most likely know it by now.

It seems to me an assumption that Toriyama "fact checks" every single panel, decision, thought that is made. This also seems an arbitrary evidence to credit more the manga. Do we know Toriyama "fact checks" everything? Why wouldn't Toyotaro mention "Toriyama's approval" if that's the case?

Anyway, maybe Toriyama saw it, but he didn't mind that decision. Even so, this seems to support the notion that what Toyotaro does is also valid, not needing Toriyama's input whatsoever.

[Miracles]

Toyotaro made Yadorats (a Toei's design original) "canon", when he added them into his authoritative manga. The standard (?) for all Dragon Ball (?) Super (?).

And we know that decision only involves Toyotaro and Shueisha, Toriyama is no part of the equation here. Any suggestions on what we should do? Ignore that decision and Toei's Yadorats appearance completely? Accept that Toyotaro is becoming an authority? Impeach Toyotaro?

Toriyama fact checks Toyotaro's storyboards. Those Yardrats had to get his authoritative [canon] approval first.

Including both of them was Uchida's decision, not Toriyama's (Uchida has a say as editor much like Toriyama's editors in the past had on DB as well). But yeah if Toriyama took issue with that he would have vetoed it.

The manga benefits from the fact it's just three people for the most part. Toriyama, Toyotaro, and Uchida.

Toriyama fact checks Toyotaro's storyboards. Those Yardrats had to get his authoritative [canon] approval first.

Again, Toriyama is not part of the equation. If Toyotaro had to get approval from Toriyama, we would most likely know it by now.

It seems to me an assumption that Toriyama "fact checks" every single panel, decision, thought that is made. This also seems an arbitrary evidence to credit more the manga. Do we know Toriyama "fact checks" everything? Why wouldn't Toyotaro mention "Toriyama's approval" if that's the case?

Anyway, maybe Toriyama saw it, but he didn't mind that decision. Even so, this seems to support the notion that what Toyotaro does is also valid, not needing Toriyama's input whatsoever.

In perspective and context your statements are not accurate. Victory Uchida himself has stated that Toyotaro and he still has to get checked by the authority [Canon] Toriyama. Even Toyotaro states this a number of times in other interviews. So what Toyotaro does is never isolated. Every storyboard gets fact checked by Toriyama, for his approval.

Even in the recent interview, with Uchida and Toyotaro, Toyotoro states there are certain things he just can't take liberties with. Since it's Toriyama's story [canon]; like creating Dragonballs. Toriyama also had to remind them both that the Cerealians are not a warrior race [Authority/canon]. Also made sure that Granolah has a partner [Oatmeel] in order to continue Toriyama's trope where both can give their story to the audience through conversation. Lastly, my favorite, notice how Toriyama also rejected Toyotaro's Heeter's design three to four times. With Uchida finishing that statement off with "but Toriyama always looks at everything seriously."

[VegettoEX]

Real quick: I don’t think anyone in an official capacity has specifically talked about FACT checking.

That’s a VERY different thing from reviewing storyboards, and it’s ALSO a completely different thing from having someone who reviews and advises on continuity within a fictional work.

[The Monkey King]

Modern Dragon Ball simply has multiple continuities now.

Hell, I'm starting to think it has three:

Manga - DBS Manga - Mostly Toei + Toriyama
Anime - DBS anime - Mostly Toyotaro + Toriyama
Movies - Bog, RoF and DBS Broly - 50/50 between Toei + Toriyama

The reason I put DBS Broly in the movie continuity is because NONE of the SSJ Blue enhanced forms appear in the film i.e. SSJB Kaioken, SSJB Evolved, Perfected/Mastered SSJB. These forms were likely nowhere to be seen in the outlines Toriyama gave Toei and Toyotaro and so made no appearance in a film where he had more direct involvement with; I suspect this will also be the case in DBS Super Hero.

[BWri]

Modern Dragon Ball simply has multiple continuities now.

Hell, I'm starting to think it has three:

Manga - DBS Manga - Mostly Toei + Toriyama
Anime - DBS anime - Mostly Toyotaro + Toriyama
Movies - Bog, RoF and DBS Broly - 50/50 between Toei + Toriyama

The reason I put DBS Broly in the movie continuity is because NONE of the SSJ Blue enhanced forms appear in the film i.e. SSJB Kaioken, SSJB Evolved, Perfected/Mastered SSJB. These forms were likely nowhere to be seen in the outlines Toriyama gave Toei and Toyotaro and so made no appearance in a film where he had more direct involvement with; I suspect this will also be the case in DBS Super Hero.

Manga continuity

Original 52 vols- DBS Manga- Broly Movie

Anime continuity 1

DB- DBZ- DBGT- some movies

Anime continuity 2

DB- DBZ:Kai- DBS Anime- Broly movie

Movie continuity

Certain DB movies

Game continuity

Xenoverse
Heroes

This is how I see it, all of these are canon but separated by continuity

I think you both have a good idea of how the continuities work. I see it similarly. Particularly with the multiple anime continuities, that's a clever separation, anime Z goes into GT and anime Kai goes into Super. I like that.

[Mister_Popo]

Concerning the original manga and its animated adaptation: it was very clear what exactly the source material was back then.
There were of course 'minor' differences between manga and anime, but the thought of the anime being the same story converted into animated format was perfectly acceptable and somehow made sense.

With Super it's not entirely clear what exactly that source material really is, apart from the basic plot onlines before they are converted into anything relevant.
There is an overarching plot, but in-universe there are too many differences to make conclusions or statements about what version of that plot is most accurate, more because the franchise nor Toriyama have made claims concerning this untill date.
First the anime took a headstart, and so people concluded it was the source material.
Now the manga has the advantage of having a headstart, and within a year or so probably the new movie.

In my opinion these are just different versions of the same story, rather than the same story adapted and translated into another medium, no matter how unromantic this idea might be considered by some people. All those works can be considered official 'addition' to an established story, approved so by the original author, but that's about it. None of those versions have been declared more canon than the other.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They have been separate stories since the first tournament. I think the anime used to be the main continuity since it was getting all the spotlight, but now that it's ended I think the manga is the main thing. I bet the anime will probably just adapt the manga like most animes do when/if it comes back.

[Mister_Popo]

but now that it's ended I think the manga is the main thing. I bet the anime will probably just adapt the manga like most animes do when/if it comes back.

'I think it's the case" and 'i prefer ...' are only thoughts and preferences, no valid arguments for debate.
I haven't read any senseful arguments from people who made a choice in this matter (x is more canon than y) that go beyond thoughts or preferences.

[Grimlock]

That's because there is no arguments to be made. It does come down to preference where there isn't an evidence, a statement of any sorts.

[Mister_Popo]

That's because there is no arguments to be made. It does come down to preference where there isn't an evidence, a statement of any sorts.

The central question of this thead would have been 'which version of these events do you prefer?' in that case. Then it's not about canon anymore. But simply about personal preference.
'I believe this is the main thing' is not an answer to that specific question at all. Not even close.
Claming something is more canon than something else, while there is no evidence at all, is basically a false claim that something is 'the way it is meant to be' while this never has been officially confirmed just because of personal preference.

[Grimlock]

Exactly! You, sir, have said everything in just a few words what took me a lot of posts in this thread.

Now you see clearly why these "canon debates" are completely pointless, people are essentially discussing their preferences and won't change their point of view just because someone else has/presents a different point of view.

Opinions, "headcanon", personal choices... That's all there is to it when it comes to the "canon of Dragon Ball".