"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Man, I just can not bring myself to care about Bardock AT ALL.. I mean he’s cool enough I guess but in either iteration of the character I never saw him as some Uber bad ass like so many fans seem to. Ah well, as long as this chapter pushes the story forward I’m game.

You and me both. I never cared for Bardock. He saved his son and became star dust afterwards.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I've never really cared about Bardock either, but he's a fan favorite so I get it why they wrote him into the story. I'm more interested with the story behind the Dragon Balls, the Namekians, and Zalama.

[MCDaveG]

So what would be a plausible explanation for Granolah not using the DBs to resurrect his mother, or the entire Cereal race, yet? I can think, off the top of my head, of these ones:

- The Cereal DBs do not have such power (kind of invalid for 3 reasons: 1- Granolah could perfectly well use his newfound powers to focus on finding another set of DBs 2- Even if he didn't know about other sets of DBs, he didn't even consider it a possibility when he wished for his powers, so it wasn't even a matter of the DBs being powerful enough, 3- They were probably powerful enough to at least revive his mother, seeing as they bestowed him unparalleled power, resurrecting someone should be a piece of cake).

- He didn't think of it (a bit implausible, but then again, they could go for the idea that he was so hell bent on revenge that he didn't notice the obvious, and so condemned his people, or whatever).

-He's waiting to kill all potential enemies (Frieza and Saiyans, and now Heeters) before resurrecting his kind.

-He didn't actually cared about his mother/race as much as one would think (the less likely option, as he cared for them enough to wish them avenged, at the cost of his own life).

Thoughts? Do you guys think it is just a plothole? Or will it get addressed eventually?

(I'm not following the manga closely, so I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, I just think it is a major plot point that should be adressed).

Well, our ''heroes'' are also using the DBs mainly to ressurect people on just Earth and nowhere else... so it looks like the series is rather Earth-centric and nobody elsewhere uses dragon balls to ressurect loved ones and is OK with death.

[Trouser]

This new chapter felt like fanfiction, considering Bardock is the center. It was okay, I guess, but I'm little disappointed. That Majin Buu ripoff with dreads feels over powered... Or Bardock is super weak.

[kemuri07]

Yeah....ugh. That was about what I expected.

Bardock...part of a race that regular commits planet-side genocide to sell off.....suddenly has a problem with offing a mom and her kid.

It's just..so goddamn cheap. I don't like the implication that Bardock's kindness rubbed off on Goku. It completely takes away from the idea that Goku becoming "Earth's champion" was alll down to luck. Nope--IT'S DESTINY!!

I'm pretty laid back when it comes with DB running loose with its own canon, but this is one I can't ride with. It's bad. Whether this is the moment where this arc goes to hell....we'll see.

[Alruneia]

Well, the chapter's been released, and sure enough it's practically all a flashback. It's interesting and all, I guess, but it's sooo slooow. I bet even next month's chapter is gonna end before the Heeters make their wish at this rate...

[kemuri07]

This new chapter felt like fanfiction, considering Bardock is the center. It was okay, I guess, but I'm little disappointed. That Majin Buu ripoff with dreads feels over powered... Or Bardock is super weak.

This is similar to what they did to 17 in the Super anime: because he was super popular character, he inexplicably becomes GOAT, able to go toe-to-toe with the strongest in that arc, and manages to be the one to do the most for the good guys to win. It makes no sense, and it's clearly done simply because he's popular.

I get the sense that the decision to soften Bardock is for the same reason. He's a popular character, and it'd probably hard crafting stories about him if he's a ruthless genocidal warrior.

[DSB]

Ok back after 3 months of not reading...

and i see its still the same.

Anyway. I think they could retcon a bit more and have Bardock meet that future reading guy in an even earlier mission than shown in here and Broly. Say Bardock can feel the future with seeing some glimpses what he doesnt decrypt, but he has a feeling his family wont be alive. He doesnt immediately accept it, but seeing Granolah and Muesii made him care about his family and wants them to be safe. Hence he saved the cerelians because he got a feeling it might be the thing he has to do which might lead to his family being alive. Say if he didnt go this route and into the heeters, maybe he would have left and gotten killed in another mission before the Saiyans were killed.

So his premonition got him in this trajectory where he saved Granolah and the namekian, fought and beat Gas, left and was able to at least save his kids.

[kemuri07]

Re-read it again...and don't feel much better about it. They try to do the whole "it's not like I care about you guys, baka!" routine with Bardock.

I mean, look. I get it. There's plenty of fiction about criminals who impulsively try to save someone because deep down they're tired of the life. I just don't think they'll go that way with Bardock. Based on Zero and what we see of him here, it's clear that he's simply better than most of the saiyans around him. It also seems like we're due for another flashback chapter since now Gas apparently lost against Bardock.

I pretty much champion Super (the manga) for the most part, but man. This chapter is a bummer. Retconning everything so that everyone is connected is weak storytelling .

[Grimlock]

Spoiler:

Alright, so:

1- Despite Toriyama saying Bardock, Gine, Raditz and Goku were never together, this chapter does feature all of them almost in the same place. Save for Raditz who is playing just outside the house (a missed opportunity to ignore Toriyama's nonsensical words and feature all of them together!).

2- By showing Raditz playing "with beetles", it does contradict Toriyama statement that Saiyans kids "don't play". Take that in your face, Toriyama!

3- The assault on Granolah's planet takes place in the same year Goku was born. This means the events occurs in AGE 736 (if you think Goku will spend full three years inside an incubator) or AGE 737 (if you prefer this year and assume Gine will round up the amount of time Goku will spent in the incubator).

I'm going with the latter, that's the year I prefer for Goku's birth year, so: AGE 737 + 40 = AGE 777. That's not right, so we have to assume the story is rounding up by four years. Instead of "forty years ago", it is actually forty four years ago: AGE 737 + 44 = AGE 781!

Surprisingly enough, this actually makes possible for Vegeta to be a kid by the time the assault happens. The only problem is Monaito saying "forty years ago" instead of being a bit more specific.

4- Bardock was the one who picked the name, nice trivia there. But I had assumed it was Gine who did that just to make things even cuter! But because "Dragon Ball likes to subvert expectations", I'd like Raditz to be the one who picked the name!

So, continuing this:

5- It doesn't seem like Bardock can control his Oozaru, I think he would have killed them if he had not been turn back to base form. Like I said in another thread, it'd be a huge twist if he could control it. It would make me wonder why the heck hasn't he been promoted to mid-class.

6- Bardock missed Goku's birth! What a nice in-joke that runs through the family, then! Goku was not there for Goten either.

7- Sure is a bit cool seeing Raditz doing something else and even smiling. Can we get more of Raditz too?

8- It's so weird to see Bardock with a scouter now. He only used it in the TV Special, never to be seen with it again. Thought Bardock knew scouters aren't that useful and considering we also see that he knows people can change their power level, makes me wonder why he still uses it (maybe just to locate other beings. It doesn't seem like Bardock can detect others by their Ki).

9- Fans: GoKu DoEsn'T cArE aBoUt HiS fAtHeR!11!111!!!!11!!!!
Goku: I WISH A KNEW A THING ABOUT MY DAD.



10- Cloaked Bardock is cool. But I'm still deeply missing the headband. There is no Bardock without headback. Can we please give this man a freaking headband already?


It seems next chapter we will see Bardock actually fighting? And from the looks of it, Bardock won that fight. I sure hope we do see it! Looking forward to the next chapter as well!

This new chapter felt like fanfiction, considering Bardock is the center.

Yeah, Bardock sure brings fanfiction whenever he appears. Hell, even uttering his name feels like fanfiction. It's like... It's his technique?

Bardock: Here take this, FANFICTION! *shoots fanfiction at the enemy*

[emperior]

Unless something got lost in translation, I think there is a subtle hint that Bardock naming his son Kakarot has some untold background. It wasn’t the first time he saw a baby according to Gine, which implies that he saw Raditz like that, yet when he first saw his new son he was… surprised?

Maybe I am looking too much into it, but I am curious if that name had some importance to Bardock. Maybe one of his relatives with whom he had a special bond was also called Kakarot, and was strikingly similar to him, which is why Bardock didn’t hesitate for a second when he had to come up with a name. There could be some interesting backstory there.

Will Bardock’s role really be only that of saving Granolah, beating Gas and heading home, or will there be more to it?

They have decided to include him in this story in a rather big way, so I wouldn’t mind if they go all out with it now. Could Gas decide to go so far so as to actually revive Bardock to get his revenge fight? I know the fanbase would erupt in anger, but it’s something I wouldn’t mind, actually.

[Mr Baggins]

Chapter's out. I have some thoughts.

Firstly, the idea that Goku would inherit his father's kindness in some way, be it literally or poetically, shouldn't surprise anyone in 2021. Like I said, that ship has sailed seven years ago. Toyotaro will never be interested in diverging from Toriyama's vision for the series. The issue has been discussed to death over the years and everybody has their own take; mine is that his portrayal in Minus is at least preferable to what the TV special did, as far as the topic of Goku being made "special" goes. Either way, this is a counterproductive and unfair complaint because it clearly isn't judging the arc by its own merits.

But since I think there IS a valid critique to be had, let me get straight to the point. Bardock's role in this flashback, as it stands, feels increasingly forced and contrived.

For a good example of how to make modern Bardock work within a story arc, look no further than DBS: Broly. As a contrast to Paragus, he ties eloquently into the movie's core parental themes: Broly's father routinely abuses and molds him into a savage brute to fulfill some selfish revenge goal, but Goku's father's genuine care for his offspring (and through a small act of kindness) results in the latter's relatively peaceful upbringing on Earth which ultimately informs his kind-hearted nature. There's an underlying narrative motif, which most of the main players -- Broly, Goku, Vegeta, and even Freeza -- relate to in some way to serve the broader context of the film.

Does the main series really need anything more from this extremely ancillary character? Bardock, the father of Goku, thematically suits a movie about fatherhood and its potential effects or consequences. 'Nuff said! It's a purposeful, graceful introduction and equally graceful exit in Super's continuity for the most part.

How does he truly serve this arc, other than vindicating the Saiyans as "not all bad" or "not entirely deserving of Granolah's vengeance"? Goku and Vegeta already fit that bill, making Bardock more of this surface level plot/backstory device than an interesting character foil or thematic device. This is all bland, fanservicey storytelling, albeit (I guess) fun if you're just looking to get more of an insight into canon!Bardock. It's alright for what it is, but I think the ToyoTori duo are better writers than this.

Anyway, Granolah's mom is hot.

[batistabus]

Despite what Vegeta says, Goku is not soft because of Bardock. Bardock a soft because of Goku.

[emperior]

Chapter's out. I have some thoughts.


Bardock's role in this flashback, as it stands, feels increasingly forced and contrived.

Anyway, Granolah’s mom is hot.

I agree with your take, for now, but I would wait to see what happens next before concluding that Bardock’s role is forced.
There may be a lot more to it, and I guess it may have actually been Toriyama’s idea to include Bardock, considering his relation Gas, so I don’t expect this to be blatant fan service for the sake of it but to actually have a deeper impact on the story.

[Koitsukai]

I think it was ok, not bad, not spectacular at all. Just what I expected to happen, at least Goku and Granny are not related.
There wasn't that much to try, though, well, they could've expanded a little more on Bardock instead of just having him remember he has a child too, but well, it's DB, it's better if they don't go overboard with it.

Too bad they are fixated on the "you are good because your daddy was good, even though you've never met, so you must've inherit that trait".


I guess Bardock fucked Gas up. Probably will react to Goku after seeing his stupid face.

[Jack Bz]

Really didn't like this chapter at all. It's probably my least favourite of this arc. It wasn't interesting and was painfully predictable.

Having Elec be the one to kill Granolah's mother felt really trite to me. Like they needed to give a reason for Granolah to turn on the Heetas, as if them selling his planet to be slaughtered wasn't enough reason. I preferred it when the Heetas were more ambiguous villains who didn't get their hands dirty themselves.

[PurestEvil]

Yeah this chapter ain't it chief.

This was the sort of thing I was betting against...Bardock saving a couple of Cerealians because he reminded them of his family and stuff. Even disregarding the OG Bardock, this feels so tacky...shoot, the Father of Granolah prediction would have been better than this!
Like, did he NEED to take such lengths to take the mom and kid to safety? It would have been better if he just left after speaking to that Leek guy.

Sure, Goku finding out who is father was and the Heeters being themselves is decent, I suppose, Muezli's death was tragic and all yadda yadda, but this chapter was disappointingly mediocre.
The only thing that peaked my interest was seeing a possible Nappa cameo (page 13).

Spoiler:

To think this was the one chapter I avoided spoilers about...

[Mr Baggins]

but I would wait to see what happens next before concluding that Bardock’s role is forced.

I'm not really concluding anything, hence me saying "as it stands". It's impossible to evaluate an arc without reading the entire thing and all of the context that comes with it.

I can evaluate individual chapters in the meantime, though, and this doesn't look awfully promising.

[TKA]

I liked this.

I like Bardock's characterization. He isn't thinking any of this through and is acting on just emotion. At one point he's even chastising himself for going out of his way to help people out of sentimentality. It shows that he's still a bad dude, who has done a lot of bad stuff, but because this one thing reminds him of something personal, he can put all that aside and help. It's sorta like how every right-wing politician goes "I used to hate gay people until I had a gay son." Bardock wouldn't do this for anyone; he's doing it because these specific people reminded him of his wife and kid.

And Vegeta knowing who Bardock is makes sense since he was on the same squad as Raditz for half of his life.

Finally, it's funny watching Toyotaro blend Toriyama's aesthetic with Toei's. Seeing all those bulky soldiers from the various Toei specials next to the more scrawny average-looking Saiyans Toriyama draws nowadays was some fun whiplash that I think overall adds a lot of interesting diversity to the series.

In a vacuum, much like last month's, this chapter was good.

RIP Chris Ayres.

[The Monkey King]

Bardock: The Father of Goku, one of the best Dragon Ball stories ever has been retconned for such a boring, mediocre retelling of Bardock's life.

Nu-Bardock has been a boring character since DB Minus and things have not gotten better since then. His most memorable moment is in DBS Broly trying in vein to stop Freeza's attack, which in itself is a homage to the superior OG-Bardock and his story.

OG-Bardock's story was a tragedy of a futile attempt to change the future, karma coming back to haunt the saiyan race, the conspiracy of Freeza's intention to wipe out the saiyans was told much better, with Dadoria slaughtering Bardock's crew and other saiyans not believing Bardock when he tried to warn them, leading him to face off against Freeza alone, creating one of the most iconic scenes in Dragon Ball history.

Spoiler:

But no, now we're left with a space pirate turned tsundere, who simply had a 'hunch' that the complete genocide of his race might take place.

We've had a great story effectively replaced by a boring one, as a Dragon Ball fan I really do hate this.