Unpopular Opinion: "Pulling a Toriyama" is overexaggerated

[MrBookNQuill]

I believe that this so called "Pulling a Toriyama" thing where something is asspulled, is overly exaggerated on how bad it is...well not including Super, Super is the definition of Pulling a Toriyama but I'm referring to Z. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, there are some obvious times were it has happened.

Example 1: Gohan and Goku were originally fused but Toriyama decided to change it last minute due to Goku fans wanting Goku to be the main character.

False. There is no evidence nor proof supporting this claim, the only supposed claim which I've yet to actually see, is a so called statement of Toriyama himself saying the above statement. In both Manga and Anime, it was shown that around the same time Goku was given the Potara Earrings from Elder Kai, just before, Baba was shown taking "one of the best fighters" King Yemma had to offer, revealing to obviously be Vegeta.

There is more proof to the claim that Toriyama had planned this from the beginning even if there is proof that Toriyama did in fact state "Goku and Vegeta was never originally planned." Unless the Statements were recent from when he wrote the arc, I refuse to believe that the Statement has 100% accuracy even if its by Toriyama himself.

My reasoning for that is because Toriyama is known for bad memory, himself even admitted it, and that like everything is still overexaggerated on the internet, its still quite bad. For all we could know, Toriyama is only saying that now but when he DID in fact make the second part of the Buu Saga post Vegeta sacrificing himself, he could've thought or planned it as he went a long with whatever he was doing after.

Example 2: Super Perfect Cell.

I don't in one bit see how this was a sudden asspull, is it so hard to believe in a world where people, since the era of Dragon Ball could momentarily move faster than the speed of light, who can now move like we're talking vigintillions upon vigintillions faster than light, that someone like Cell can't suddenly come back?

Maybe I'm just reading too many random comments on the internet or not spending enough time where people actually think things through and this isn't actually considered an asspull at all, but Super Perfect Cell seems totally reasonable and clearly not asspulled. In fact, as much as some people claim Toriyama being a "write as it goes along" kind of guy, a lot of his stuff seems a lot more structured than that...or maybe my standards despite trying to keep them higher, have dwindled because some people don't understand the structure in even the most basic forms.

Either way, I don't see how can this be an asspull. Maybe it's just me cause I can't stand modern storytelling because its all about stupid shit and not the Story itself, so I see older stuff like Dragon Ball more...qualified than it actually is.


Like I can understand some big asspulls, hell Super Saiyan itself was originally an asspull BUT, it wasn't a quick cheap asspull, there was obvious effort put into it, and like plenty of other "claimed asspulls" it had some form of effort put into it. Enough to make an enjoyable show.

Example 3: Future Trunks being wrong...so many times

This is the one I get sick of hearing, literally people are trying to think into it too much. If I did that I would've never enjoyed Doctor Who...the older stuff anyways. Trying to understand something like Time Travel (which will forever be impossible), is well...impossible, maybe you want some closure/conclusion that's fine, but if you try to understand things too much, you become too smart for your own good and it always ends bad.

I like the wonders and the magic, it may sound childish but it keeps my enjoyment of Storytelling going and that's the fun thing about Storytelling, is using your imagination, I mean I wouldn't suddenly say some random character like Cell can suddenly use Super Saiyan transformations because ...well.. that has no logic in it, a well balanced amount of Logic and Imagination creates something seriously creative when done right.

I mean this Example can easily be explained by thinking "Maybe Trunks didn't see these first two Androids due to the fact, that he'd only know the "Terror Twins" because he was a baby at the time the first two arrived, so there was 100% accuracy, and perhaps because the "Terror Twins" have been causing so much destruction for so long, Bulma just forgot?" then again, maybe I'm being dumb I dunno.


Example 4: Goku's sudden increase from being only slightly weaker than Ginyu at base, to stronger than Frieza's first few forms after a massive boost.

Okay actually this one is a pretty bad asspull but I wanted to bring it up anyways. Here's a rule of thumb I always keep, as long as you don't go overboard, and you keep a balance to Logic & Reasoning behind why you did something so...asinine, and make sure it isn't too out there. But regardless, despite the plothole this created, I still think this wasn't the worst one...

Though I guess you could point out that technically Toriyama did the power-up bullshit a lot throughout the series, but some of the "Undeserved Powers" have some reasoning behind them. For Gohan it was due to his incredible hidden potential, and while it may seem that even at one point his power seemed to much, I.E Gohan getting mad enough to push back Frieza third form, the only reason this was fine was because it dealt no real damage.

The answer to that would basically be, "Frieza is constantly toying with his opponents, and at this point, again he underestimated them, letting Gohan's brief explosion of power only temporarily overpower Frieza."

I dunno I'm running out of stuff, perhaps I shouldn't have wrote this when I'm half asleep, please do challenge me on this and prove me wrong, or debate and whatever...I don't really care. I do know one thing and it's that...I don't think Pulling a Toriyama was going to be my original discussion topic xD. Can't remember....

I do agree he does it very often, but what I disagree is that every single asspull is bullshit and not all of them have no logic behind it. I do believe there is some reasoning and/or logic on a lot of the asspulls he does, but then there is plenty where it's just like "well plot so hahah go brr", and you the viewer is like either gonna have to roll with it or be disappointed.

Again though, I didn't really care much for Super, so I'm more over referring to Pre-Super days....so technically if we included Super this whole discussion wouldn't exist because again, it's the definition of constant Asspulls. Sayonara or some crap I guess? Imma go pass out

[MasenkoHA]

Example 1: Gohan and Goku were originally fused but Toriyama decided to change it last minute due to Goku fans wanting Goku to be the main character.

False. There is no evidence nor proof supporting this claim, the only supposed claim which I've yet to actually see, is a so called statement of Toriyama himself saying the above statement. In both Manga and Anime, it was shown that around the same time Goku was given the Potara Earrings from Elder Kai, just before, Baba was shown taking "one of the best fighters" King Yemma had to offer, revealing to obviously be Vegeta.

I’ve literally never seen anyone ever claim that Goku and Gohan were going to fuse. It was always understood by fans that when Toriyama changed his mind about Gohan being the lead and put Goku back in the game that he was setting up a Goku x Vegeta fusion.

[Koitsukai]

The only asspull, or perhaps the word is inconsistency, I have a problem with, from the Cell arc, is the whole nucleus-in-my-brain thing. It is possible that his self-exploding action failed to destroy the nucleus, but how did it survive Goku's point blank KHH right at where the nucleus was suppossed to be?

IIRC, the nucleus being in his brain was explained after everything he went through, so maybe a more flexible explanation would've been better, like the nucleus can move freely around his body to protect itself or something.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

I've never seen many people complaining about Gohan and Goku not getting to fuse. It seemed pretty obvious that he would go the route of having him fuse with Vegeta from the beginning.

The one of these that feels most ridiculous to me is Goku's zenkai boost allowing him to fight base form Frieza...but it's in-line with all the other zenkai boosts during that arc. It's not enough to take me out of the story.

I think "Toriyama'd" can best be applied as a concept to characters like Yamcha. People make fun of the Saibaman killing him in the Saiyan arc, but truthfully that's how Yamcha was always written. He was always meant to be the "jobber" character, even when he had a massive boost in power and skill. He never even makes in to the semi-finals in any of the tournaments. Toriyama is excellent at making the reader root for a likable character like Yamcha, while setting him up to lose and show just how powerful the opponent is. Granted, I also think this concept can be applied to Mystic Gohan losing to Bootenks due to overconfidence, although even as a Gohan fan, I don't think this hurt the story at all and actually served to raise the stakes/make things more interesting.

[TobyS]

The only asspull, or perhaps the word is inconsistency, I have a problem with, from the Cell arc, is the whole nucleus-in-my-brain thing. It is possible that his self-exploding action failed to destroy the nucleus, but how did it survive Goku's point blank KHH right at where the nucleus was suppossed to be?

IIRC, the nucleus being in his brain was explained after everything he went through, so maybe a more flexible explanation would've been better, like the nucleus can move freely around his body to protect itself or something.

Honestly I just took it as a non exhaustive list of one there.

“I can regenerate from a single Cell as long as my nucleus is that cell”

“you've obviously already seen I can regenerate if I have enough ki or biomass, but as long as my nucleus from my head remains I can regenerate from even just that”

Is there anything to prevent this reading.

In a like... Deterministic? Way I must be right.... Because we literally canonically see him regenerate both ways...