Was he holding back against Freeza? Moro?
Goku never tries to kill his opponents unless they leave him no choice. Vegeta has an entire speech about this in the Boo arc, c'mon now.
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Was he holding back against Freeza? Moro?
So he was holding back against Goku Black, is what you are saying?ZombieVito wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:36 pm Was he holding back against Freeza? Moro?
Goku never tries to kill his opponents unless they leave him no choice. Vegeta has an entire speech about this in the Boo arc, c'mon now.
That's not exactly what I meant.
I don't see nothing implying I was talking about mental state/mindset in my explanation. I'm not discussing who is attacking first either. I quoted the entire dialogue, so you can read yourself.Spoiler:
That was actually what I thought it needed discussion. Black implied Future Zamasu was capable of doing such feats, but you have to consider their situation. Goku was already getting weaker after fighting Black and Trunks was nearly dying when they left him with Bulma, so Black likely considered their lack of energy to fight Future Zamasu. That of course depends on how weaker do you think Goku got, if at all. It's still mind-boggling, because none actually comments on his battle power having raised, when there are plenty in regards to Goku Black..Spoiler:
Zamasu lands a single blow. An exception no different from the likes of Vegeta fighting on par with Ribrianne as a Super Saiyan despite later blowing her away with ease in Base form.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:36 pm Ep. 57: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is standing on top of the building, clearly just spectating)
Once again, Zamasu fails to land even one blow on his own, they are all done with assistance from Goku Black. Trunks easily swats aside Zamasu to focus on the actual problem which is Goku Black. It makes no sense for Vegeta to use a lesser form due to the serious nature of events and that Goku Black is still involved in the fight.Ep. 62: SSB Vegeta vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is busy fighting Trunks)
Episode 63, Trunks fights the pair again, Zamasu is quickly taken out of the battle. He comes back to fight a drained Super Saiyan Trunks and still can't prove to be any notable amount superior. He lands a genuine hit on him, for only the second time since the character was introduced and it had little effect, otherwise Trunks kept up with him just fine.Ep. 63-64: SSB Goku vs. F. Zamasu (while Black is fighting Vegeta on another battlefield)
In four months Frieza trained to unlock all of his potential. It was an intentional thing that he did with a purpose.This is a weak argument when you consider that mortals like Frieza can surpass in 4 months every bit of training that most Kais get in millions of years.
You omitted the parts where he stalemated his punch attack, traded fists with him multiple times in quick succession, and forced him to avoid each of his Ki blasts.
Completely different scenarios. Vegeta was obviously holding back as to not kill Ribrianne or he'd get disqualified. In the context of the Future Trunks arc, Goku had literally no reason to hold back against an opponent who threatened to destroy all of mankind.An exception no different from the likes of Vegeta fighting on par with Ribrianne as a Super Saiyan despite later blowing her away with ease in Base form.
I don't remember this happening.Later in the same episode, Goku kicked him upside a building
He also overpowered SSR Black.Trunks overpowers
Easily explainable with Zamasu being careless as he always is in a fight.and runs him through as a Super Saiyan with Zamasu not being able to land a single blow on him.
Black was also humiliated in that fight.In Episode 61, when all five characters are fighting, Zamasu does not get in one blow through his own power. He is only able to land a hit on Goku because Goku Black hit him towards him. He is later humiliated with a backhand slap by Goku.
Then the reverse is also true. Black can't land a single hit without Zamasu assisting him.Once again, Zamasu fails to land even one blow on his own, they are all done with assistance from Goku Black.
Because, as explained in the following episode, he knows that Zamasu always drops his guard after being hit by an attack, because he's so overconfident, so the real threat is Black. It's got nothing to do with Zamasu "being weak".Trunks easily swats aside Zamasu to focus on the actual problem which is Goku Black
Because Zamasu wanted to. He literally laughs and takes pleasure in getting hit by that blast, a reaction that he wouldn't be having if he was so much weaker than Trunks. In that case, the blast would have literally torn him apart, which didn't happen. In fact it did no damage to him whatsoever.Zamasu is quickly taken out of the battle.
As per dialogue verbatim he wanted to have fun against him, due to his earlier bravado.He comes back to fight a drained Super Saiyan Trunks and still can't prove to be any notable amount superior.
If Trunks was so much stronger than Zamasu, he wouldn't just "keep up with him just fine".otherwise Trunks kept up with him just fine.
Omitting that Zamasu had a prolonged fight off-screen with SSB Goku and that he was sent by Black to torture and kill Ikari Trunks.The rest is the same as before,
It's not because Frieza was also a prodigy and it's the only reason why he got so strong by training. Because he was a mutant compared to the rest of his species.Zamasu being a prodigy or not is beside the point
Yes.Yet somehow with no particular urge or goal to train, unlike Frieza, with just an additional 17 years his strength has increased to that of a Super Saiyan Blue?
An outlier or Goku holding back. Zamasu fought Super Saiyan Trunks and the latter overpowered him and struck him and Trunks is weaker than Goku.You omitted the parts where he stalemated his punch attack, traded fists with him multiple times in quick succession, and forced him to avoid each of his Ki blasts.
That doesn't even make sense. He effortlessly blasted her away in Base form. Why would he need to engage her in Super Saiyan at all. He could have had the same fight in Base and he'd still be holding back.Vegeta was obviously holding back as to not kill Ribrianne
It was when Trunks also overpowered Goku Black and hit him into the building prior to Goku and Trunks being back to back.I don't remember this happening.
Yes that was another outlier or just Goku Black being taken by surprise.He also overpowered SSR Black.
That wasn't careless, he clearly was trying to hit Trunks and couldn't, got countered and was run through. If he wasn't immortal he'd have died then and there.Easily explainable with Zamasu being careless as he always is in a fight.
If he was tanking them he wouldn't have been hurtled through the ground.Zamasu was just laughing, tanking all of them.
The same episode he literally had Goku, Vegeta and Trunks attack him one after the other and he kicked each of them away with ease by himself.Black can't land a single hit without Zamasu assisting him.
Trunks was drained after blasting Goku Black into the mountain and even though Trunks is stronger than Zamasu it's not by a significant amount.If Trunks was so much stronger than Zamasu, he wouldn't just "keep up with him just fine.
Because he only does so thanks to his immortality. If not for that Trunks would have killed him by himself.We have clear feats of him fighting and holding his own against SSB fighters, why would I ignore them?
We don't know that. Gowasu's comment was based on what Beerus told him.And besides, as per Goku's statement from BoG, we know that P. Zamasu who is relative to SS2 Goku is also relative to SSG Goku from BoG.
Cherry-picking feats.Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:07 pmAn outlier or Goku holding back.You omitted the parts where he stalemated his punch attack, traded fists with him multiple times in quick succession, and forced him to avoid each of his Ki blasts.
Black fought Super Saiyan Trunks and the latter overpowered him and kicked him back and Trunks is weaker than Goku. I guess that means Goku > SSR Black.Zamasu fought Super Saiyan Trunks and the latter overpowered him and struck him and Trunks is weaker than Goku.
Then why would Goku use SSB against F. Zamasu if he could stomp him in SS2.That doesn't even make sense. He effortlessly blasted her away in Base form. Why would he need to engage her in Super Saiyan at all. He could have had the same fight in Base and he'd still be holding back.
Ah, you left that out, why am I not surprisedIt was when Trunks also overpowered Goku Black and hit him into the building prior to Goku and Trunks being back to back.
Trunks getting a hit on Zamasu.... is literally Zamasu being taken by surprise.... Because it's Canonically stated and SHOWED that Zamasu, due to Immortality, 1) fights carelessly 2) drops his guard 3) takes pleasure when he gets hit by attacks.Yes that was another outlier or just Goku Black being taken by surprise.
He clearly was not trying to hit Trunks lol, literally all he was doing was dodging his sword attacks.That wasn't careless, he clearly was trying to hit Trunks and couldn't, got countered and was run through. If he wasn't immortal he'd have died then and there.
If he wasn't tanking them he would have been pulverized due to being "fodder" to Goku.If he was tanking them he wouldn't have been hurtled through the ground.
The same episode Zamasu was fighting SSB Vegeta off-screen.The same episode he literally had Goku, Vegeta and Trunks attack him one after the other and he kicked each of them away with ease by himself.
So Black was completely overpowered and knocked unconscious (in the mountain) by someone who is "only a bit stronger than Zamasu, not by a significant amount".Trunks was drained after blasting Goku Black into the mountain and even though Trunks is stronger than Zamasu it's not by a significant amount.
Immortality isn't a power boost. Unless you think Garlic Jr can also overpower Goku and hold his own in prolonged fights with him.Because he only does so thanks to his immortality.
Eh? Who's talking about Gowasu?We don't know that. Gowasu's comment was based on what Beerus told him.
Zamasu isn't fodder, he's simply weaker than Trunks and is able to hold his own against superior opposition due to immortality.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:38 pm So let me understand.
When Future Zamasu gets hit by Future Trunks, he's fodder and a weakling and Trunks can stomp him. But when Goku Black gets hit by Future Trunks then Black was just sleeping or it was an outlier.
Then Future Zamasu clearly can't do anything to any SSB saiyan without Black's help... despite me thoroughly examining and proving that he had several fights (on-screen and off-screen) against SSB Saiyans where he held his own fairly well against SSB fighters.
And obviously whenever F. Zamasu hits or stalemates a SSB Saiyan, it's also an outlier or the Saiyan is just holding back for whatever reason.
Doesn't matter if he never hit Goku more than twice because what is important is that he stalemated him several times as shown above.Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:39 pmZamasu isn't fodder, he's simply weaker than Trunks and is able to hold his own against superior opposition due to immortality.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:38 pm So let me understand.
When Future Zamasu gets hit by Future Trunks, he's fodder and a weakling and Trunks can stomp him. But when Goku Black gets hit by Future Trunks then Black was just sleeping or it was an outlier.
Then Future Zamasu clearly can't do anything to any SSB saiyan without Black's help... despite me thoroughly examining and proving that he had several fights (on-screen and off-screen) against SSB Saiyans where he held his own fairly well against SSB fighters.
And obviously whenever F. Zamasu hits or stalemates a SSB Saiyan, it's also an outlier or the Saiyan is just holding back for whatever reason.
Trunks hit Rose Goku Black in the manga just the same when the power levels are clear cut there. Trunks jumped in between the action and Goku Black was caught by surprise evident by the fact that all three couldn't touch him next time he was encountered as the gif above shows.
Zamasu actually did do nothing against anyone by himself. He landed two genuine attacks by himself in all the episodes he appeared in (that I recall) and one was against a drained Super Saiyan. He hit Goku one time.
One.
Yeah you would say that because he hit him one time in several fights .SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:27 amYou already tried to make that argument and it's shown to you that it's pointless to try and gauge someone's strength by the number of times they hit their enemies. Kefla never hit UI Goku but it doesn't change the fact that she was a threat to him.
Manga has the same general idea as the anime. Zamasu is weaker than Base Goku Black and Trunks there as well.Also why do you bring up the manga? Literally every villain is fodder there, even Black is fodder in the manga compared to the anime.
Trunks flat out says Goku and Vegeta no longer get Zenkais. How do you equal that to Vegeta getting one?Goku9001 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:08 pm I would have to disagree here. Vegeta received a zenkai i.e power boost, which falsely led Goku and Trunks to believe that Vegeta had a chance against SSJ Goku Black. It's only upon Vegeta not faring any better than he did previously i.e SSJ Goku Black having the upper-hand on Vegeta that Goku/Trunks concluded that Vegeta no longer receives zenkais. The context is clearly placing emphasis on Vegeta's power lacking given that an immediate zenkai, which was meant to power him up, didn't change Vegeta's chances at winning. We are also given close-up shots of Goku Black and Vegeta where Goku Black is smiling throughout the exchange whereas Vegeta is clearly in pain. Stamina was never the issue as the context placed behind taking the sensu bean was to provide him a power boost and not simply to restore his stamina.
Vegeta training rigorously in the RoSaT logically did yield a power-boost, that doesn't need to be explicitly stated. It's a natural assumption that the readers can make unless noted otherwise. I mean, isn't that the assumption you are making as to why Vegeta needed the sensu bean? Super Saiyan Blue exhausts a lot of stamina and a sensu bean restores his stamina, therefore the sensu bean was meant to address his stamina issues? It's a reasonable argument, just as reasonable as Vegeta having went from SSJ Goku Black to beyond SSJR Goku Black given that his bursts of SSJB (Post) performed far better against SSJR Goku Black than it did against SSJ Goku Black, despite having his stamina restored, during their first battle.
The reason I mention this is that if the manga proposes the idea of Vegeta receiving a power-boost that exceeds the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue, then what stops SSJ2 Trunks from receiving a power-boost akin to the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Blue in the anime? Toriyama clearly isn't against such a power-boost as long as the story demands it.
I stated that the point behind giving Vegeta a sensu bean wasn't because Vegeta's stamina was lacking, it was to provide him with the power boost he needed to fight SSJ Goku Black. Thus, the act of giving Vegeta a sensu bean places emphasis on his power being lacking and not his stamina. This is shown to us when Vegeta, despite having his stamina restored, is still inferior to SSJ Goku Black with the crew expressing disappointment that Vegeta's power hadn't increased which was necessary in order to defeat Goku Black.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:06 pm
Trunks flat out says Goku and Vegeta no longer get Zenkais. How do you equal that to Vegeta getting one?
If Vegeta got stronger in the Rosat then how is Goku still his equal? He actually does even better than Vegeta against Merged Zamasu despite having done nothing but master the Mafuba, which is not related to power at all. He and Vegeta are also equals in the ToP despite Goku admitedly not having any time to train between sagas.
The manga tends to be more conservative than the anime when it comes to power boosts, so you'd have a hard time selling people this.
I took a look at the anime. I don't think those statements are meant to be taken as definitive power statements. Rather, they are merely trying to understand what transformation he is finally using on Frieza. Krillin makes the observation that Goku's ki could no longer be sensed, hence why Gohan responds with the fact that Goku must be Super Saiyan God. Everyone else then questions whether or not that is the case since Goku's hair is blue rather than red. Thus, Roshi suggests that Goku may have reached a level i.e transformation higher than Super Saiyan God because it uses god ki and yet it looks completely different from God. It's not a reference to power rather a reference to what transformation Goku must be using.Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:44 pm Anyway bored of that now.
I've been going through some of the Golden Frieza Saga to see if it can be determined at all as to where Goku and Vegeta are meant to stack up in their base form.
It is obvious they've powered up rapidly. Frieza says to Goku
"I had heard that you defeated Majin Boo, but I had no idea that you had become this good."
So at the least they do seem to be above Kid Buu but I'm not sure if they are meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base or not.
When Goku becomes Super Saiyan Blue he describes it as
"The Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God."
Does that mean he's meant to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in Base and him becoming Super Saiyan Blue is just him turning Super Saiyan? Which of course ends up a problem when he can use regular Super Saiyan in the next arc.
But then other characters comments like Gohan say
"Apparently, he has turned Super Saiyan God."
Roshi says
"Has Goku reached an even higher level than he was back then?"
Which could imply he wasn't as strong during his fight with Final Form Frieza as he was as a Super Saiyan God. King Kai makes a big deal about him becoming a Super Saiyan God on his own.
But then when Goku and Vegeta are training, Beerus says they've become a lot stronger and offers to fight them so does that mean Base Goku at that point was stronger than Super Saiyan God because he'd absorbed the power and then trained afterwards?
So I can't tell if Base Goku is meant to be vastly more powerful than before just because of all the training and sparring but he's not at all Super Saiyan God level or he's actually stronger than the level he was at when he fought Beerus.
Is it meant to be the former and that's why he can still turn into Super Saiyan God? Or is it the latter and there was a retcon and that's why it took about a hundred episodes for it to re-appear?
Well, Goku does better against Merged Zamasu because he uses Completed Blue which gives out a big boost over normal Blue.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:06 pm Trunks flat out says Goku and Vegeta no longer get Zenkais. How do you equal that to Vegeta getting one?
If Vegeta got stronger in the Rosat then how is Goku still his equal? He actually does even better than Vegeta against Merged Zamasu despite having done nothing but master the Mafuba, which is not related to power at all. He and Vegeta are also equals in the ToP despite Goku admitedly not having any time to train between sagas.
The manga tends to be more conservative than the anime when it comes to power boosts, so you'd have a hard time selling people this.
What he's saying is:ZombieVito wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:50 am Well, Goku does better against Merged Zamasu because he uses Completed Blue which gives out a big boost over normal Blue.