Can Anyone Give Me Some Clarification on Cell?

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:33 pm

In light of these new opinions, I agree that King Kaio would not interfere with any of the humans affairs. I do however, believe that Goku would have telepathically communicated with Bulma and helped her out as best he could.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:01 pm

Xyex wrote:Why do people always asume that the Kais are going to just drop everything to give the Earth a hand?

Because they're the lords of the worlds? I really don't agree with you here, because while Kaio-sama may not interfere in any situation, he has helped the Earthlings in more than one occasion (which you yourself pointed out) and he has allowed Goku to return to life one day in the main timeline. Why wouldn't he allow that in Trunks' future?

All it takes for Kaio-sama to help the Earthlings in the future is no more than what he has already done for them in the past and in the main timeline, namely to relay the location of Planet Namek and to allow Goku to be revived for one day - minor bending of the rules, to use your phrasing.

The fact that this didn't happen in Trunks' future, is just another one of Toriyama's mysteries. It's not in the slightest impossible to think that Kaio-sama could assist Goku and the Earth. There are many more options left unused (why didn't Gohan and Trunks train the RoSaT, why didn't Piccolo and Kami merge), which, in my opinion, means that Trunks' future is a sequence of terrible coincidences.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:14 pm

With regards to the lack of RoSaT usage, no Piccolo Kami fusion, Etc in Trunks' timeline...
... In the Series timeline, everyone had warning. They had plenty of time to think about new things they could fall back on if their three years of training didn't work. I get the impression Piccolo only fused with Kami because he knew he wouldn't win otherwise; in Trunks' timeline, however, Piccolo probably didn't survive his first encounter with 17 and 18, so didn't have the chance to fuse in desperation.
RoSaT... suggested by Goku, who was long since dead in Trunks' timeline.
If anything, we have to wonder how Future Trunks compares to not-future Trunks and why...

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:25 pm

Yeah, I could see that Piccolo didn't survive his first encounter, given that he didn't know what he was up against. So that one's down for the count

as for the RoSaT, Goku was dead, yes, as was Kami, but Mr. Popo and possibly Karin had to have known about the RoSaT and let Gohan and Trunks train there.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:42 pm

True, but Gohan didn't really have connections to Popo or Karin, so the best we could hope for there would be one of them coming down and dragging him off for training... which I guess was possible. But most of what pushed Gohan to the pont h was at in the series timeline was the way Goku trained him... so training on his own (or with Trunks, whatever) in the RoSaT shouldn't actually have been as beneficial as training with his father, since Goku was the only one who caught on to the wole "Gohan can beat Cell" thing... making sense? o.o.

Rereading one of the old threads, the dialogue between Cell and Piccolo at Cell's arrival didn't actually seem to require that Timeline3 Trunks went back in time at all...
... The problem is that then the Trunks that goes back into the future to kill Cell came from somewhere. Which brings us back to the four timelines. Ah, well. I still want to play with the ide of only having three,somehow...

.

<<Probably will just ramble for the rest of the post. May sum up later if anything interesting happens.>>

Ok, so what stuck out to me about Cell's description and flashback to Timeline3 Trunks...
First, Cell didn't know what happened to 17 and 18 and only assumed (and thus implied?) that Trunks beat them somehow. He mentioned that Trunks' time machine was there, but nothing about Trunkshaving previously used it was mentioned. (However, the time machine was pretty much out of energy when it was found by Bulma and Co in the main timeline... *shrug*).
Another thing... Trunks attacked Cell with his sword, which was broken over 18's arm. It might have been repairable, or maybe that Trunks didn't break it... but yeah, if he hadn't gone back in time, he wouldn't have been as likely to break it in the first place.
And finally: the date of the time machine's arrival... what throws me off about this isn't so much the timing--that would support the idea that tl3 Trunks never went back in time--it's Piccolo's reaction to it. Sure, Cell could have bumped the controls, or Piccolo could have been wrong... but Toriyama made it sound like neither of these was the case. I think Toriyama was implying that the Trunks Cell killed was the same Trunks that was currently preparing to kick his ass. Which, naturally, makes no sense and is later proven wrong when Trunks kills Cell in his timeline.
And the big problem with this "TL3Trunks never timetraveled" idea is the most obvious... where did the Trunks that killed Future Cell come from? How could two time travelers coexist like that?

And I think this is where Terra-jin's version makes the most sense to me... that is, that the Series timeline is actually a modified version of the hidden timeline, which somehow creates a whole new timeline for TL1 Trunks.
Which... when I think about it............. ......... *hides train of thought*

Somehow, I don't like that... ^_^. But it is the only thing I can make sense of at this point...
(Though, if this "Cell created two timelines by trying to regress an altered timeline" thing works the way I'm imagining it... we don't have an extra Trunks to worry about, because the Trunks in TL2 did actually come from TL1... Gah! *looks for ice to stop the melting*).

Hmm. I have an idea, but it complicates things and assumes things and... I'm going to go write it down somewhere...

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:43 pm

Well, they could've possibly went to the lookout if anything. Gohan knew of it, and Trunks knew where the source of the senzu's were from. He even said that if the "senzu plant hadn't ran dry, Gohan could've gotten his arm back," which is odd, considering that Korin creates the senzus.

I wonder why they would all of a sudden ran dry? The only thing I can think of, is the possibility that the Androids made their way to the lookout, and somehow inflicted their destruction there. It's not like the Androids wouldn't eventually find the lookout, anyway; they seemed to roam around a lot.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:06 pm

@caejones: it may make more sense if you think of it as that the new Future Trunks (from the main timeline) doesn't really come from anywhere - that he is just an integral part of the main timeline. The difficulty from the whole timeline issue is that some parts of the theory are open to different views - for instance how time runs on the different timelines. I've done quite a bit of research and as you've read I've established a number of rules of DB-timetravel. However, some of these rules have multiple, different valid views, which makes the whole thing uncertain.
It's not impossible to understand, but it took me quite some time to realise the extent of the 'customizability' of DB-time-travel rules

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:13 pm

Because they're the lords of the worlds? I really don't agree with you here, because while Kaio-sama may not interfere in any situation, he has helped the Earthlings in more than one occasion (which you yourself pointed out) and he has allowed Goku to return to life one day in the main timeline. Why wouldn't he allow that in Trunks' future?

Because none of the conditions are met. If he could just interfere when and where he wanted do you think Freeza would have ever conquered the North Galaxy? In every instance where he did something to help those of Earth there were special circumstances. Goku was dead, he had a living pupil making a request for information, he had a GOD planning to use reality altering powers (Shenron) which is divine intervention in and of itself. He never just went: "Oh, hey guys, here's some divine help just for you and no one else cause your my favorites!"

As for Goku coming back, that was almost certainly orchastrated by the Supreme Kai. Do you really think it was purely chance that Goku was given a day back on Earth the same day Babidi was trying to release Majin Buu? Buu's a threat to the existence of the entire universe and thus a cause for divine intervention.

If it was really as simple as "Oh, the Earth is in danger! I should do something!" then why didn't Mutaito come back to fight King Piccolo?

All it takes for Kaio-sama to help the Earthlings in the future is no more than what he has already done for them in the past and in the main timeline, namely to relay the location of Planet Namek and to allow Goku to be revived for one day - minor bending of the rules, to use your phrasing.

Actually, it would be. As I said, in all instances before there were special circumstances that made rule bending possible. If none of his pupils are actively a part of the course of the living world or some divine entity isn't already pulling some strings then there's no special circumstances for him to bend the rules with. Talking to Goku is a lot different than suddenly popping into Bulma's head and going "Oh, don't worry, I found New Namek, now you can go there and revive everyone because you're my favorites!"

The fact that this didn't happen in Trunks' future, is just another one of Toriyama's mysteries. It's not in the slightest impossible to think that Kaio-sama could assist Goku and the Earth.

And I've no doubt that if some means of doing so had presented itself he would have. But none did and so he could not. If he acts to save those of Earth what of those of other worlds? What about Planet Example that's being terrorized by a pair of mutants. Or Planet Sucky that's been taken over the remains of Freeza's empire? Why doesn't he just arrange for the revival of every person ever murdered, ever?

You have to remember, he's a Kaio. A God. He can't just wave his hand and fix the universe simply because he wants to. It's not his place to decide who gets to have a second chance, who deserves to have their life back, who should die, etc.

There are many more options left unused (why didn't Gohan and Trunks train the RoSaT, why didn't Piccolo and Kami merge), which, in my opinion, means that Trunks' future is a sequence of terrible coincidences.

Piccolo would have confronted the Androids and probably been killed the first time. And if not he could have fused with Kami and then been killed by both of them attacking at the same time. Who knows? But just because they merge doesn't mean he'd win. He was wearing down against 17 when Cell showed up as it was.

As for the RoSaT, the only ones who knew of it were dead. Popo and Korin are both MIA in Trunks time so it's safe to assume they're hiding or dead. Hell, we don't even know if Korin Tower or the Lookout even exist anymore.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:51 pm

I doubt that the Kaioshin had anything to do with Goku's return. After all, Baba was the one that arranged it, and she doesn't know the Kaioshin (not even Kaio met him). This leads me to believe that Kaio approved it. Though I certainly believe Kaios don't interfere with the proceedings of the Universe, I do think that our case is within the acceptable limits of this interference.

With Goku being able to return for one day, he could stop by Kaio just like he did in the main timeline and fetch the Nameks. The fact that he didn't was perhaps that Goku didn't maintain watch over the Earth (after all, the cyborgs arrived a year after his death). I'd guess he long said his farewell to his friends already.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:34 pm

Wait a minute ... I'm confused here.

Wasn't the reason Goku was allowed to come for one day was that the Grand Kai granted iot to him because he won the tournament and Grand Kai's original gift was special training from him?

Coola Yagami · Post by **Coola Yagami** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:38 pm

Naw, Uranai Baba just lets people come back to life for a day whenever. But who knows... she did predict the day Goku would show up so she could revive Gohan THAT very day.. so maybe she also let Goku arrive the day of the tournament knowing all hell would break loose that day.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:52 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:Wasn't the reason Goku was allowed to come for one day was that the Grand Kai granted iot to him because he won the tournament and Grand Kai's original gift was special training from him?

No, for a few reasons. First, all the stuff with the Dai-Kaio and the tournament was only in the anime. At any rate, Goku didn't technically win that tournament anyway; both he and Paikuhan were disqualified due to a technicality.

In the manga (and I'd assume the anime as well), it's implied that Goku was the one to decide to come back that day; he says he'll make the day of the tournament be the day he'll request Uranai Baba to have him be able to return.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:54 pm

Yeah, just by way of clarification, Goku's presence was mainly a well-timed coincidence. Basically, the tournament drew in the villains looking for ki to steal, Kaioshin tracking the villains and scouting out heroes, the Z Senshi looking for kicks, and Goku figuring it'd be the best time to catch everyone together.