"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

It was more, Toyo wrote the first draft and Toriyama did the second draft. It wasn't like the other Dragon Ball Super arcs where the outline originally came from Toriyama with Toei and Toyo filling the blanks which is what I'm saying.

And I outright said Super is a team effect. Even the movies have stuff not from Toriyama like Super Saiyan Full Power.

We don’t know what he was given from Toyotaro other than the character and basic premise. I fail to see how that’s appreciably different from, say, taking starting premises for Trunks or Broly, or adapting the existing BoG script, but to each their own.

I don’t see Toriyama’s involvement as being all that much less. Just Toyotaro’s being higher at an ideative stage, perhaps.

[HeroR]

It was more, Toyo wrote the first draft and Toriyama did the second draft. It wasn't like the other Dragon Ball Super arcs where the outline originally came from Toriyama with Toei and Toyo filling the blanks which is what I'm saying.

And I outright said Super is a team effect. Even the movies have stuff not from Toriyama like Super Saiyan Full Power.

We don’t know what he was given from Toyotaro other than the character and basic premise. I fail to see how that’s appreciably different from, say, taking starting premises for Trunks or Broly, or adapting the existing BoG script, but to each their own.

I don’t see Toriyama’s involvement as being all that much less. Just Toyotaro’s being higher at an ideative stage, perhaps.

Toyo more or less said that original outline came from him along with stuff like Bardock and Vegeta training with Beerus and getting UE. With where the arc is and what we know came from Toriyama, the biggest question is what was original outline without the Heeters and the new Dragon Balls making everyone the strongest.

And speaking of things we don’t know, Trunks coming back being from someone else is also a guess. Toriyama only said the arc was a suggestion. What was the suggesting. Bringing Trunks back, making an evil Goku, having an evil Kai, we actually don’t know. Everyone just assumed it’s Trunks.

As for Battle of Gods, we both know the Toriyama’s movie so vastly different from the original version it’s practically a different movie. Even the ideas kept like Beerus and Super Saiyan God got different designs since Beerus was supposed to be a lizard.

I called it a littke less when he isn’t coming up with the plots unlike the other Super plots and he made Toyo do the Heeters.
The biggest point for me is such a big character moment and form for Vegeta had nothing to do with Toriyama. And before you say SSBE, that was never a big form imo since it was just Vegeta’s version of Blue Kaioken that he broke out of nowhere with no buildup. Compared that to what UE got.

[Dragon Wukong]

Toyo more or less said that original outline came from him along with stuff like Bardock and Vegeta training with Beerus and getting UE. With where the arc is and what we know came from Toriyama, the biggest question is what was original outline without the Heeters and the new Dragon Balls making everyone the strongest.

And speaking of things we don’t know, Trunks coming back being from someone else is also a guess. Toriyama only said the arc was a suggestion. What was the suggesting. Bringing Trunks back, making an evil Goku, having an evil Kai, we actually don’t know. Everyone just assumed it’s Trunks.

As for Battle of Gods, we both know the Toriyama’s movie so vastly different from the original version it’s practically a different movie. Even the ideas kept like Beerus and Super Saiyan God got different designs since Beerus was supposed to be a lizard.

I called it a littke less when he isn’t coming up with the plots unlike the other Super plots and he made Toyo do the Heeters.
The biggest point for me is such a big character moment and form for Vegeta had nothing to do with Toriyama. And before you say SSBE, that was never a big form imo since it was just Vegeta’s version of Blue Kaioken that he broke out of nowhere with no buildup. Compared that to what UE got.

I mean, it was basically said the entire plot got revamped by Toriyama. You can't actually remove the dragon balls or the Heeters (both elements added by Toriyama in said revision) without creating an entirely different plot. How is that really any different from what you're describing for Battle of Gods?

Toriyama didn't do the Heeter designs himself, but, in typical (major) editorial role, had Toyotaro revise those designs several times until they could be personally met with approval. Would you detract Toriyama's role in that?

And even if you don't count the Toyotaro designs that Toriyama had him revise, Toriyama has still contributed several designs himself via Monaito and the Sugarians.

As for Ultra Ego, like Cipher pointed out, it's not particularly all that different from any other addition that's been added. Trunks' new "Super Saiyan Rage" form certainly wasn't a Toriyama addition. Neither was Broly's "Full Power". None of these, (including SSBE, as you didn't want mentioned) disqualify Toriyama's original involvement in a given story or arc.

[Jinto]

Irrelevant question to the current discussion: would the DBS manga receive as much criticism if it was drawn by Murata (OPM) but kept the same plot ?

[HeroR]

Toyo more or less said that original outline came from him along with stuff like Bardock and Vegeta training with Beerus and getting UE. With where the arc is and what we know came from Toriyama, the biggest question is what was original outline without the Heeters and the new Dragon Balls making everyone the strongest.

And speaking of things we don’t know, Trunks coming back being from someone else is also a guess. Toriyama only said the arc was a suggestion. What was the suggesting. Bringing Trunks back, making an evil Goku, having an evil Kai, we actually don’t know. Everyone just assumed it’s Trunks.

As for Battle of Gods, we both know the Toriyama’s movie so vastly different from the original version it’s practically a different movie. Even the ideas kept like Beerus and Super Saiyan God got different designs since Beerus was supposed to be a lizard.

I called it a littke less when he isn’t coming up with the plots unlike the other Super plots and he made Toyo do the Heeters.
The biggest point for me is such a big character moment and form for Vegeta had nothing to do with Toriyama. And before you say SSBE, that was never a big form imo since it was just Vegeta’s version of Blue Kaioken that he broke out of nowhere with no buildup. Compared that to what UE got.

I mean, it was basically said the entire plot got revamped by Toriyama. You can't actually remove the dragon balls or the Heeters (both elements added by Toriyama in said revision) without creating an entirely different plot. How is that really any different from what you're describing for Battle of Gods?

Toriyama didn't do the Heeter designs himself, but, in typical (major) editorial role, had Toyotaro revise those designs several times until they could be personally met with approval. Would you detract Toriyama's role in that?

And even if you don't count the Toyotaro designs that Toriyama had him revise, Toriyama has still contributed several designs himself via Monaito and the Sugarians.

As for Ultra Ego, like Cipher pointed out, it's not particularly all that different from any other addition that's been added. Trunks' new "Super Saiyan Rage" form certainly wasn't a Toriyama addition. Neither was Broly's "Full Power". None of these, (including SSBE, as you didn't want mentioned) disqualify Toriyama's original involvement in a given story or arc.

With Battle of Gods Toyo threw out nearly the entire plot and gave whole new character designs. Beerus when from a lizard to a cat and created Whis, Super Saiyan God when from Super Saiyan 4 with a cap to what we have now, the plot went from a revamp of the Garlic Jr Saga to creating whole new Dragon Ball lore for the multiverse and the gods, and got rid of the plot line that Beerus was a virus like being who corrupted the Saiyans into evil which whitewashes them of their sin. The only things really kept from the original movie is the concept of Super Saiyan and the God of Destruction.

While Granola arc is different with the new Dragon Ball lore and the Heeters the based of the plot is the same. Vegeta trains with Beerus and gets a form that rivals UI, Granola is the last survival of a race wiped out for the Saiyans and he wants revenge, and Bardock saved Granola and his mother's lives. Honestly, my biggest question was how did Toyo originally envision Granola rivaling Goku and Vegeta.

The thing I personally find odd about the Heeters was how Toriyama created the idea of them, but refused to designed them and even sent back drafts to Toyo (which makes me wonder what they looked like before because the Heeters are some of the most fanfic designed characters I've seen in official Dragon Ball outside of Heroes). Because when Toriyama makes a new character, he usually designs them too like he did with Cali, Beerus, and Whis. I can't think of a time when he created a new character and made someone else do the work. I guess there are the Gods of Destruction done by Toyo, but even then Toriyama did some of the new gods like the mouse god, Sidra, and co-oped with Toyo to make Belmond and the female God of Destruction.

Which is pretty small even for Toriyama. Like USS was primary done by the anime staff, but even then Toriyama created Jiren (the main powerhouse and given lore), Toppo, Dyspo, Rib (heh), and Cali as a counterpart to Kale. So Toriyama did create the central antagonist for that arc and made Toei fill in the rest.

I'm going to have to disagree with Cipher that UE not particularly all that different from any other addition that's been added. For one, it retcon Beerus even learning UI since Whis stated in Resurrection 'F', both the movie and retelling, that Beerus was still learning UI and it was something everyone strived for. USS gives greater detail to this with Manga Beerus actually using UI on the other gods and the anime stating how all the gods try to master it and how astounding that a mortal like Goku could get it to the point that they stood up when Goku completed UI. Then suddenly in this arc we learned that 'yeah, UI isn't suited for Gods of Destruction, but that's okay because we know Hakai that can be equally as good'. Like, if Hakai is just as good as UI and several times easier to used, why didn't Whis allow Goku and Vegeta work on that? Apparently, you don't even need to be a god in waiting like Toppo to get Hakai training. And why did Beerus bust out UI if he wasn't suited for it? That and as was pointed out to me recently, the earring Beerus gave Vegeta is supposed to show that knows Hakai, but five of the Gods of Destruction don't wear that earring with two of them being gods created by Toriyama.

That and Toyo had to walk back Goku using Hakai against Fusion Zamasu with 'he messed up', except nothing suggested that Goku did. Fusion Zamasu was clearly being erased and it looked no different than what Beerus did early. So where did Goku mess up? And before you say, 'well, Goku didn't kill Zamasu so he obviously did it wrong', Goku stopped because Zamasu took Mai hostage and even Beerus admitted that he can't erase an immortal.

Finally, I find it odd that Vegeta said he wants to surpass Goku his own way, and he goes about it by learning a technique from Beerus. So, how exactly that his own way, especially when Goku did something similar, even if he did it 'wrong', just a few arcs ago. Honestly, Dragon Ball Heroes did this plot point better.

Except Toriyama ignored the extra forms like SSBE in Broly. Which is part of why I didn't mentioned it. And this doesn't distract from the issue with UE since Toyo went against stuff that he wrote before and even stuff from Resurrection 'F'. Super Saiyan Rage and SSBE are little more than stop gap power boosts to allow characters to keep up. Trunks could fight Zamasu and Black with his new form and Vegeta got something that rivaled Blue Kaioken and gives him a form that he could call his own. Neither goes against previous writings like UE did. As for Super Saiyan Full Power, they all but said it was added for fan-service and Toriyama basically shrugged and said 'don't make it too bulky'.

Irrelevant question to the current discussion: would the DBS manga receive as much criticism if it was drawn by Murata (OPM) but kept the same plot ?

People would still criticized the story, but would praise the art. So people who just want to enjoy a fight manga and don't care about the story would be happy, which is 70% of Dragon Ball fanbase.

[Dragon Wukong]

Man, you really went and wrote two pages in response. I'll try and tackle this piecemeal.

With Battle of Gods Toriyama threw out nearly the entire plot and gave whole new character designs. Beerus when from a lizard to a cat and created Whis, Super Saiyan God when from Super Saiyan 4 with a cap to what we have now, the plot went from a revamp of the Garlic Jr Saga to creating whole new Dragon Ball lore for the multiverse and the gods, and got rid of the plot line that Beerus was a virus like being who corrupted the Saiyans into evil which whitewashes them of their sin. The only things really kept from the original movie is the concept of Super Saiyan and the God of Destruction.

Not the entirety of Beerus' origin was redesigned. Yes, Beerus isn't the source of the Saiyans evil, but it's absolutely the case that Beerus has a connection with the Saiyans that had been there before Toriyama got involved, which shows now in King Vegeta and Frieza's subservience to him, and how he ultimately plays the role in having ordered the destruction of Planet Vegeta. Anyhow, if you wanna use "scrapped the character designs" as a factor, he did the same with Toyotaro when it came to revisions for various characters. Just because Toriyama didn't personally draw them, doesn't mean he was "less involved" when he was still calling those shots.

While Granola arc is different with the new Dragon Ball lore and the Heeters the based of the plot is the same. Vegeta trains with Beerus and gets a form that rivals UI, Granola is the last survival of a race wiped out for the Saiyans and he wants revenge, and Bardock saved Granola and his mother's lives. Honestly, my biggest question was how did Toyo originally envision Granola rivaling Goku and Vegeta.

Right now the story isn't focused at all on Vegeta or his new form, or Granolah wanting revenge on the Saiyans. In fact, right now it's focused on Granolah fighting the characters that Toriyama added. Said characters who are also responsible for the death of Granolah's remaining family, and the key pieces of the conflict in the entire arc right now. The story loses all semblance of structure if you just carelessly removed the Heeters. It's naive to suggest that adding them wasn't a significant change to the plot.

The thing I personally find odd about the Heeters was how Toriyama created the idea of them, but refused to designed them and even sent back drafts to Toyo (which makes me wonder what they looked like before because the Heeters are some of the most fanfic designed characters I've seen in official Dragon Ball outside of Heroes). Because when Toriyama makes a new character, he usually designs them too like he did with Cali, Beerus, and Whis. I can't think of a time when he created a new character and made someone else do the work. I guess there are the Gods of Destruction done by Toyo, but even then Toriyama did some of the new gods like the mouse god, Sidra, and co-oped with Toyo to make Belmond and the female God of Destruction.

I'll just be blunt, but some of your bias might be showing in this paragraph. To give an honest, realistic answer, there's very good reason to believe that Toriyama is effectively "prepping" Toyotaro to take over his overall duties with this series. The guy is old, and already showed some semblance of letting Toyotaro take some reigns in the previous arc. But really consider the fact that about half the Gods of Destruction were either designed by Toyotaro, Toriyama, or both of them working together (Heles and Belmod). Toyotaro is so proud of that latter bit that Belmod serves as his avatar and face on Twitter. A major antagonist in the Universe Survival Arc, followed by being granted the role to design the major antagonist for the next arc, Moro. Having Toyotaro redo the designs for the Heeters until he was satisfied (again, Gas is the major antagonist of this arc, just like Moro was in the previous one, and Jiren in the one before that) is helping Toyotaro prepare should a time come the story continues and he has to design such a character without his assistance.

Which is pretty small even for Toriyama. Like USS was primary done by the anime staff, but even then Toriyama created Jiren (the main powerhouse and given lore), Toppo, Dyspo, Rib (heh), and Cali as a counterpart to Kale. So Toriyama did create the central antagonist for that arc and made Toei fill in the rest.

That's because he only designed story for those characters (and Damon, who may have also been a Toriyama design given earlier precedence next to Ribrianne and the pride troopers in promo art.) Toyotaro doesn't really do much with those other characters either, because they're mostly there to fill up space rather than have importance to the background of the world (like the Gods of Destruction.)

I'm going to have to disagree with Cipher that UE not particularly all that different from any other addition that's been added. For one, it retcon Beerus even learning UI since Whis stated in Resurrection 'F', both the movie and retelling, that Beerus was still learning UI and it was something everyone strived for. USS gives greater detail to this with Manga Beerus actually using UI on the other gods and the anime stating how all the gods try to master it and how astounding that a mortal like Goku could get it to the point that they stood up when Goku completed UI. Then suddenly in this arc we learned that 'yeah, UI isn't suited for Gods of Destruction, but that's okay because we know Hakai that can be equally as good'. Like, if Hakai is just as good as UI and several times easier to used, why didn't Whis allow Goku and Vegeta work on that? Apparently, you don't even need to be a god in waiting like Toppo to get Hakai training. And why did Beerus bust out UI if he wasn't suited for it? That and as was pointed out to me recently, the earring Beerus gave Vegeta is supposed to show that knows Hakai, but five of the Gods of Destruction don't wear that earring with two of them being gods created by Toriyama.

Beerus learning UI hasn't been retconned at all. I'm not sure why you think that just because Ultra Ego is a thing now. It's entirely possible the two could be learned in conjunction, or switched by someone as skilled as Beerus. But these are all assumptions until we let the story progress further.

That and Toyo had to walk back Goku using Hakai against Fusion Zamasu with 'he messed up', except nothing suggested that Goku did. Fusion Zamasu was clearly being erased and it looked no different than what Beerus did early. So where did Goku mess up? And before you say, 'well, Goku didn't kill Zamasu so he obviously did it wrong', Goku stopped because Zamasu took Mai hostage and even Beerus admitted that he can't erase an immortal.

He "messed up" in that it reduced Zamasu to dust instead of making him explode, which is what a "proper" Destruction apparently does. This is indeed retroactive, but not contradictory, so it's not really a big deal.

Finally, I find it odd that Vegeta said he wants to surpass Goku his own way, and he goes about it by learning a technique from Beerus. So, how exactly that his own way, especially when Goku did something similar, even if he did it 'wrong', just a few arcs ago. Honestly, Dragon Ball Heroes did this plot point better.

"His own way" is just a way different than Goku's. Ultra Ego is the opposite of Ultra Instinct. He found a way so different from Goku's it was "opposite" to his current path. It's not really contradictory just because he learned that ability from another (Beerus).

Except Toriyama ignored the extra forms like SSBE in Broly. Which is part of why I didn't mentioned it. And this doesn't distract from the issue with UE since Toyo went against stuff that he wrote before and even stuff from Resurrection 'F'. Super Saiyan Rage and SSBE are little more than stop gap power boosts to allow characters to keep up. Trunks could fight Zamasu and Black with his new form and Vegeta got something that rivaled Blue Kaioken and gives him a form that he could call his own. Neither goes against previous writings like UE did. As for Super Saiyan Full Power, they all but said it was added for fan-service and Toriyama basically shrugged and said 'don't make it too bulky'.

I'd like to know how UE goes against stuff that was written before. Other than that, you still haven't really explained how UE is different from SS Rage, SSBE, SSFP, or even really SSB Kaioken as non-Toriyama power-ups that are allowed to be added to the story. Fundamentally there's no reason one should be allowed and the other shouldn't, for any reason. I mean, heck, SS Rage definitely goes against the general logic of transformations and power-ups in the series.

[The Monkey King]

Irrelevant question to the current discussion: would the DBS manga receive as much criticism if it was drawn by Murata (OPM) but kept the same plot ?

Nope. Murata's art style and how he portrays fight scenes is fully entertaining on its own, they're a spectacle in of themselves.

It's just like how for the Broly movie was an hour of Goku and Vegeta fighting the same guy, did this fight move towards any spectacular plot developments? Nope! But it didn't have to because the fight itself was just so captivating.

Toyotaro's art and fight scenes on the other hand... no, not even close, for the most part they can't carry an entire chapter, his fights needs pace breakers, context and character depth to retain engagement.

[Skar]

Random thought but could Vegeta going his own path be inspired by some post-DB shonen where the protagonist and his rival have their own training styles like Naruto and Sasuke and Gon and Killua. Throughout DBZ, Goku and Vegeta have been achieving the same forms since their power-ups came from unlocking more of their Saiyan potential. They trained separately in the Cell saga but both achieved the SSJ grades and Goku was first to discover mastering SSJ was more efficient.

Vegeta's alternate path might lead to the same thing and he realizes mastering UI might be more effective than UE? It could explain why Beerus still tried mastering UI despite introducing an alternate power-up. In EoZ, he still seems to be behind Goku so I think whatever happens he'll still be below Goku's strongest form.

[Yuji]

Random thought but could Vegeta going his own path be inspired by some post-DB shonen where the protagonist and his rival have their own training styles like Naruto and Sasuke and Gon and Killua. Throughout DBZ, Goku and Vegeta have been achieving the same forms since their power-ups came from unlocking more of their Saiyan potential. They trained separately in the Cell saga but both achieved the SSJ grades and Goku was first to discover mastering SSJ was more efficient.

Vegeta's alternate path might lead to the same thing and he realizes mastering UI might be more effective than UE? It could explain why Beerus still tried mastering UI despite introducing an alternate power-up. In EoZ, he still seems to be behind Goku so I think whatever happens he'll still be below Goku's strongest form.

It definitely feels like something Toriyama wouldn't come up with. He was pretty firm on the idea of Goku and Vegeta sharing the same training regiment and forms until the ToP, where they started to deviate. The decision behind Vegeta getting UE and even SSBE feels like a marketing decision to capture modern Shounen trends or just genuine influence of modern Shounen seeping into Toyotarou's writing.

[Mr Baggins]

It's just like how for the Broly movie was an hour of Goku and Vegeta fighting the same guy, did this fight move towards any spectacular plot developments? Nope! But it didn't have to because the fight itself was just so captivating.

I actually think the fight in DBS Broly had a number of standout character beats: Broly slowly losing himself to the heat of battle, Goku trying to convince him to choose freedom, Paragus's desperation in general, Freeza killing Paragus to force the Super Saiyan transformation, fusion, etc. etc.

I think Toyotaro's action (and paneling, even) is fine. But it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with the storytelling, and that's where I believe he's ultimately faltering as of recent.

[Jinto]

Irrelevant question to the current discussion: would the DBS manga receive as much criticism if it was drawn by Murata (OPM) but kept the same plot ?

Nope. Murata's art style and how he portrays fight scenes is fully entertaining on its own, they're a spectacle in of themselves.

It's just like how for the Broly movie was an hour of Goku and Vegeta fighting the same guy, did this fight move towards any spectacular plot developments? Nope! But it didn't have to because the fight itself was just so captivating.

Toyotaro's art and fight scenes on the other hand... no, not even close, for the most part they can't carry an entire chapter, his fights needs pace breakers, context and character depth to retain engagement.

It just strikes me that this page from DB minus embed into my mind, especially that last panel of Bardock with the laser passing by as you get to see his indifferent stoic look, so good ! From this alone, you know how Murata took inspiration from the guy, the page convey chaos yet stays easy to read with minimum panel and dialogue.
Does Toriyama give good tips to the Toyotaro ?

[HeroR]

Man, you really went and wrote two pages in response. I'll try and tackle this piecemeal.

With Battle of Gods Toriyama threw out nearly the entire plot and gave whole new character designs. Beerus when from a lizard to a cat and created Whis, Super Saiyan God when from Super Saiyan 4 with a cap to what we have now, the plot went from a revamp of the Garlic Jr Saga to creating whole new Dragon Ball lore for the multiverse and the gods, and got rid of the plot line that Beerus was a virus like being who corrupted the Saiyans into evil which whitewashes them of their sin. The only things really kept from the original movie is the concept of Super Saiyan and the God of Destruction.

Not the entirety of Beerus' origin was redesigned. Yes, Beerus isn't the source of the Saiyans evil, but it's absolutely the case that Beerus has a connection with the Saiyans that had been there before Toriyama got involved, which shows now in King Vegeta and Frieza's subservience to him, and how he ultimately plays the role in having ordered the destruction of Planet Vegeta. Anyhow, if you wanna use "scrapped the character designs" as a factor, he did the same with Toyotaro when it came to revisions for various characters. Just because Toriyama didn't personally draw them, doesn't mean he was "less involved" when he was still calling those shots.

While Granola arc is different with the new Dragon Ball lore and the Heeters the based of the plot is the same. Vegeta trains with Beerus and gets a form that rivals UI, Granola is the last survival of a race wiped out for the Saiyans and he wants revenge, and Bardock saved Granola and his mother's lives. Honestly, my biggest question was how did Toyo originally envision Granola rivaling Goku and Vegeta.

Right now the story isn't focused at all on Vegeta or his new form, or Granolah wanting revenge on the Saiyans. In fact, right now it's focused on Granolah fighting the characters that Toriyama added. Said characters who are also responsible for the death of Granolah's remaining family, and the key pieces of the conflict in the entire arc right now. The story loses all semblance of structure if you just carelessly removed the Heeters. It's naive to suggest that adding them wasn't a significant change to the plot.

The thing I personally find odd about the Heeters was how Toriyama created the idea of them, but refused to designed them and even sent back drafts to Toyo (which makes me wonder what they looked like before because the Heeters are some of the most fanfic designed characters I've seen in official Dragon Ball outside of Heroes). Because when Toriyama makes a new character, he usually designs them too like he did with Cali, Beerus, and Whis. I can't think of a time when he created a new character and made someone else do the work. I guess there are the Gods of Destruction done by Toyo, but even then Toriyama did some of the new gods like the mouse god, Sidra, and co-oped with Toyo to make Belmond and the female God of Destruction.

I'll just be blunt, but some of your bias might be showing in this paragraph. To give an honest, realistic answer, there's very good reason to believe that Toriyama is effectively "prepping" Toyotaro to take over his overall duties with this series. The guy is old, and already showed some semblance of letting Toyotaro take some reigns in the previous arc. But really consider the fact that about half the Gods of Destruction were either designed by Toyotaro, Toriyama, or both of them working together (Heles and Belmod). Toyotaro is so proud of that latter bit that Belmod serves as his avatar and face on Twitter. A major antagonist in the Universe Survival Arc, followed by being granted the role to design the major antagonist for the next arc, Moro. Having Toyotaro redo the designs for the Heeters until he was satisfied (again, Gas is the major antagonist of this arc, just like Moro was in the previous one, and Jiren in the one before that) is helping Toyotaro prepare should a time come the story continues and he has to design such a character without his assistance.

Which is pretty small even for Toriyama. Like USS was primary done by the anime staff, but even then Toriyama created Jiren (the main powerhouse and given lore), Toppo, Dyspo, Rib (heh), and Cali as a counterpart to Kale. So Toriyama did create the central antagonist for that arc and made Toei fill in the rest.

That's because he only designed story for those characters (and Damon, who may have also been a Toriyama design given earlier precedence next to Ribrianne and the pride troopers in promo art.) Toyotaro doesn't really do much with those other characters either, because they're mostly there to fill up space rather than have importance to the background of the world (like the Gods of Destruction.)

I'm going to have to disagree with Cipher that UE not particularly all that different from any other addition that's been added. For one, it retcon Beerus even learning UI since Whis stated in Resurrection 'F', both the movie and retelling, that Beerus was still learning UI and it was something everyone strived for. USS gives greater detail to this with Manga Beerus actually using UI on the other gods and the anime stating how all the gods try to master it and how astounding that a mortal like Goku could get it to the point that they stood up when Goku completed UI. Then suddenly in this arc we learned that 'yeah, UI isn't suited for Gods of Destruction, but that's okay because we know Hakai that can be equally as good'. Like, if Hakai is just as good as UI and several times easier to used, why didn't Whis allow Goku and Vegeta work on that? Apparently, you don't even need to be a god in waiting like Toppo to get Hakai training. And why did Beerus bust out UI if he wasn't suited for it? That and as was pointed out to me recently, the earring Beerus gave Vegeta is supposed to show that knows Hakai, but five of the Gods of Destruction don't wear that earring with two of them being gods created by Toriyama.

Beerus learning UI hasn't been retconned at all. I'm not sure why you think that just because Ultra Ego is a thing now. It's entirely possible the two could be learned in conjunction, or switched by someone as skilled as Beerus. But these are all assumptions until we let the story progress further.

That and Toyo had to walk back Goku using Hakai against Fusion Zamasu with 'he messed up', except nothing suggested that Goku did. Fusion Zamasu was clearly being erased and it looked no different than what Beerus did early. So where did Goku mess up? And before you say, 'well, Goku didn't kill Zamasu so he obviously did it wrong', Goku stopped because Zamasu took Mai hostage and even Beerus admitted that he can't erase an immortal.

He "messed up" in that it reduced Zamasu to dust instead of making him explode, which is what a "proper" Destruction apparently does. This is indeed retroactive, but not contradictory, so it's not really a big deal.

Finally, I find it odd that Vegeta said he wants to surpass Goku his own way, and he goes about it by learning a technique from Beerus. So, how exactly that his own way, especially when Goku did something similar, even if he did it 'wrong', just a few arcs ago. Honestly, Dragon Ball Heroes did this plot point better.

"His own way" is just a way different than Goku's. Ultra Ego is the opposite of Ultra Instinct. He found a way so different from Goku's it was "opposite" to his current path. It's not really contradictory just because he learned that ability from another (Beerus).

Except Toriyama ignored the extra forms like SSBE in Broly. Which is part of why I didn't mentioned it. And this doesn't distract from the issue with UE since Toyo went against stuff that he wrote before and even stuff from Resurrection 'F'. Super Saiyan Rage and SSBE are little more than stop gap power boosts to allow characters to keep up. Trunks could fight Zamasu and Black with his new form and Vegeta got something that rivaled Blue Kaioken and gives him a form that he could call his own. Neither goes against previous writings like UE did. As for Super Saiyan Full Power, they all but said it was added for fan-service and Toriyama basically shrugged and said 'don't make it too bulky'.

I'd like to know how UE goes against stuff that was written before. Other than that, you still haven't really explained how UE is different from SS Rage, SSBE, SSFP, or even really SSB Kaioken as non-Toriyama power-ups that are allowed to be added to the story. Fundamentally there's no reason one should be allowed and the other shouldn't, for any reason. I mean, heck, SS Rage definitely goes against the general logic of transformations and power-ups in the series.

Having a connection with the Saiyans is a far cry from being the source to why they were evil. And even in the Broly movie, which Toriyama more directly wrote, Frieza hardly needed Beerus to tell him to destroy the Saiyans. He happily did it. So this is extremely downplayed.

A big chunk of the early training was all about Vegeta training with Beerus with led to UE and Granolah's revenge is why he even fought Goku and Vegeta to begin with. He was even willing to sacrifice going after Frieza just so he could kill Vegeta just a few chapters ago. So why are you talking about the latest chapter like everything else before then didn't happened? Heck, the only reason why Granolah stopped trying to kill Goku and Vegeta and realized the Heeters are his enemies is because of Bardock. So my point still stands. 70% of the current arc would remain the same with the biggest question being, how did Granolah get his power in Toyo's original script.

" realistic answer, there's very good reason to believe that Toriyama is effectively "prepping" Toyotaro to take over his overall duties with this series. "

I'm going to be blunt too, what the heck does this what I wrote? And if Toyo is being prepped to take over, why the heck isn't any of his stuff used anywhere? Outside of Super Saiyan God Vegeta and Roshi flexing on Jiren, what influence have Toyo have on Dragon Ball? Almost nothing from the manga get merch, simple stuff like Super Saiyan Black is ignored, Heroes gave Vegeta a new form that ignores UE despite the fact Heroes gets head up about this kind of stuff since they had stuff for UI ready before it debuted in the anime, and Heroes also uses almost nothing from the manga. So how is the guy who is supposedly taking over from Toriyama doing anything when every other branch of Dragon Ball pretends the manga doesn't existed outside of Easter Eggs. And it only gets worse when you remember that the Super manga isn't that popular in Japan. That isn't how normal succession works.

The Gods of Destruction weren't that important in USS. Most of them just gave commentary while the mortal fighters had to do the actual heavy lifting. So if anything, it was the gods filling up space in that arc.

Not what I said. I said that Beerus suddenly saying 'UI isn't for me' goes against what was said earlier about Beerus still training to master UI as was stated by Whis in Resurrection 'F'. So you can't really say "two could be learned in conjunction, or switched by someone as skilled" when Beerus said himself that UI wasn't suited for a destroyer.

Making someone explode is a retcon on Toyo's part. Go back to Beerus erasing Zamasu in the manga. Zamasu turned to dust, he didn't explode. So it is indeed retroactive, unless you're going to say Beerus messed up when he Hakai Zamasu.

Spoiler:

There is even a heaped of dust left over.

It isn't really different since Goku can used Hakai even if he mocked it up. Vegeta just took the idea further to make a new form from it and he still messed too.

I spent several paragraphs explaining how it was different. Toyo retcon his own Hakai lore, he went back on Beerus still learning UI to Beerus saying that it wasn't for him, and Hakai is suddenly comparable to UI which is weird because why didn't Whis ever bring that up while training them since Hakai is obviously easier to learn. The earrings part is just funny since almost half the gods don't wear it, but it's supposedly the mark of the Hakai user.

I don't see how Super Saiyan Rage goes against anything in Dragon Ball when it's: get really mad, new power up. That's Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.

[Dragon Wukong]

I don't like giant responses so I'm just gonna focus on this bit.

I'm going to be blunt too, what the heck does this what I wrote? And if Toyo is being prepped to take over, why the heck isn't any of his stuff used anywhere? Outside of Super Saiyan God Vegeta and Roshi flexing on Jiren, what influence have Toyo have on Dragon Ball? Almost nothing from the manga get merch, simple stuff like Super Saiyan Black is ignored, Heroes gave Vegeta a new form that ignores UE despite the fact Heroes gets head up about this kind of stuff since they had stuff for UI ready before it debuted in the anime, and Heroes also uses almost nothing from the manga. So how is the guy who is supposedly taking over from Toriyama doing anything when every other branch of Dragon Ball pretends the manga doesn't existed outside of Easter Eggs. And it only gets worse when you remember that the Super manga isn't that popular in Japan. That isn't how normal succession works.

The Gods of Destruction weren't that important in USS. Most of them just gave commentary while the mortal fighters had to do the actual heavy lifting. So if anything, it was the gods filling up space in that arc.

Not what I said. I said that Beerus suddenly saying 'UI isn't for me' goes against what was said earlier about Beerus still training to master UI as was stated by Whis in Resurrection 'F'. So you can't really say "two could be learned in conjunction, or switched by someone as skilled" when Beerus said himself that UI wasn't suited for a destroyer.

Toyotaro's stuff isn't used outside the manga for licensing reasons. You may as well ask why Bleach merchandise didn't use the TYBW arc stuff until recently. Uchida said to (paraphrasing) expect manga-stuff to appear once it gets an animated adaptation. Heroes quite literally can't use something like Ultra Ego until we get to that point, which will probably happen AFTER Super Hero. Until then, we've had multiple examples of the anime and the movies borrowing attributes of the manga. The anime didn't bring back SSG until it was clear the manga would continue using it, and then gave Goku the "SSG/SSB Switching" technique Vegeta used against Goku Black. And even though Heroes doesn't use the recent DBS arcs (again, due to licensing) they still have Toyotaro actively participating in a way Toriyama would occasionally by having Toyotaro design Heroes characters (Sealas and Ahms.)

While all 12 GoDs aren't important in the arc itself, Belmod absolutely is as the God of Destruction of Universe 11. They are also important to the background of the story via their very position.

Beerus never specifically says "UI isn't for me", he just tells Vegeta he has his own technique as well that would be worth him learning. This is as far as I'll comment regarding this particular paragraph, as I think it ultimately comes down to a difference in interpretation between the dialogue for you and me, and ultimately one of us will be proven right or wrong as the story continues.

[Skar]

It definitely feels like something Toriyama wouldn't come up with. He was pretty firm on the idea of Goku and Vegeta sharing the same training regiment and forms until the ToP, where they started to deviate. The decision behind Vegeta getting UE and even SSBE feels like a marketing decision to capture modern Shounen trends or just genuine influence of modern Shounen seeping into Toyotarou's writing.

I recall Toei saying they gave Vegeta SSBE and we know Toyotaro recently came up with UE. I'm curious where this would lead to and if Toriyama would acknowledge Vegeta going down a different path or using anything beyond regular Blue in the movies. The anime and manga might not conflict with them as long as his strongest form is still below Goku's strongest form that Toriyama came up with by the end.

Edit

Toyotaro's stuff isn't used outside the manga for licensing reasons. You may as well ask why Bleach merchandise didn't use the TYBW arc stuff until recently.

I'm curious if series like Demon Slayer and Jujutsu Kaisen which were some of the best selling manga of the last few years had any merchandise from the manga before it was adapted in the anime?

[HeroR]

I don't like giant responses so I'm just gonna focus on this bit.

I'm going to be blunt too, what the heck does this what I wrote? And if Toyo is being prepped to take over, why the heck isn't any of his stuff used anywhere? Outside of Super Saiyan God Vegeta and Roshi flexing on Jiren, what influence have Toyo have on Dragon Ball? Almost nothing from the manga get merch, simple stuff like Super Saiyan Black is ignored, Heroes gave Vegeta a new form that ignores UE despite the fact Heroes gets head up about this kind of stuff since they had stuff for UI ready before it debuted in the anime, and Heroes also uses almost nothing from the manga. So how is the guy who is supposedly taking over from Toriyama doing anything when every other branch of Dragon Ball pretends the manga doesn't existed outside of Easter Eggs. And it only gets worse when you remember that the Super manga isn't that popular in Japan. That isn't how normal succession works.

The Gods of Destruction weren't that important in USS. Most of them just gave commentary while the mortal fighters had to do the actual heavy lifting. So if anything, it was the gods filling up space in that arc.

Not what I said. I said that Beerus suddenly saying 'UI isn't for me' goes against what was said earlier about Beerus still training to master UI as was stated by Whis in Resurrection 'F'. So you can't really say "two could be learned in conjunction, or switched by someone as skilled" when Beerus said himself that UI wasn't suited for a destroyer.

Toyotaro's stuff isn't used outside the manga for licensing reasons. You may as well ask why Bleach merchandise didn't use the TYBW arc stuff until recently. Uchida said to (paraphrasing) expect manga-stuff to appear once it gets an animated adaptation. Heroes quite literally can't use something like Ultra Ego until we get to that point, which will probably happen AFTER Super Hero. Until then, we've had multiple examples of the anime and the movies borrowing attributes of the manga. The anime didn't bring back SSG until it was clear the manga would continue using it, and then gave Goku the "SSG/SSB Switching" technique Vegeta used against Goku Black. And even though Heroes doesn't use the recent DBS arcs (again, due to licensing) they still have Toyotaro actively participating in a way Toriyama would occasionally by having Toyotaro design Heroes characters (Sealas and Ahms.)

While all 12 GoDs aren't important in the arc itself, Belmod absolutely is as the God of Destruction of Universe 11. They are also important to the background of the story via their very position.

Beerus never specifically says "UI isn't for me", he just tells Vegeta he has his own technique as well that would be worth him learning. This is as far as I'll comment regarding this particular paragraph, as I think it ultimately comes down to a difference in interpretation between the dialogue for you and me, and ultimately one of us will be proven right or wrong as the story continues.

“ Toyotaro's stuff isn't used outside the manga for licensing reasons.”

Source. Because One Piece doesn’t have this issue. And if it’s licensed, how do manga Easter Eggs still show up in Heroes and Dokkan?

“ Heroes quite literally can't use something like Ultra Ego until we get to that point, which will probably happen AFTER Super Hero.”

Source for this.

“ While all 12 GoDs aren't important in the arc itself, Belmod absolutely is as the God of Destruction of Universe 11. They are also important to the background of the story via their very position.”

And still not important for the USS. They could’ve been removed from the arc and nothing would change.

“ they still have Toyotaro actively participating in a way Toriyama would occasionally by having Toyotaro design Heroes characters (Sealas and Ahms.)”

Odd example when Toyo did Heroes years before working with Toriyama. He even did the Heroes manga for a time.

“ Beerus never specifically says "UI isn't for me", ”

Hw literally said moving without thinking didn’t suit a destroyer. Toyo isn’t subtitle.

[Dragon Wukong]

“ Toyotaro's stuff isn't used outside the manga for licensing reasons.”

Source. Because One Piece doesn’t have this issue. And if it’s licensed, how do manga Easter Eggs still show up in Heroes and Dokkan?

“ Heroes quite literally can't use something like Ultra Ego until we get to that point, which will probably happen AFTER Super Hero.”

Source for this.

It's not proof, but it is conjecture. Note that you haven't seen any instances of Kaido's half-beast form pop-up in One Piece outside the manga yet (and keep in mind, the anime keeps really close to the manga all things considered.) This issue with manga vs anime licensing is the official reason for why Bleach: Brave Souls (another product derived from one of Shueisha's published franchises) had been unable to utilize characters and forms from the Thousand-Year Blood War arc despite said arc having ended in the manga ages beforehand. It's an entirely separate deal of licensing than with anime products.

The reason why techniques (Goku's Hakai, Vegeta's Gamma Burst Flash) can still be used in games like Heroes is most likely because they don't constitute a form of trademarked or copyrighted "design." So they're free to get away with that loophole before those arcs are properly animated or adapted at some point.

If you want to "no proof" this explanation then go ahead, but it would feel a bit naive of you to hard-wall and say this isn't the case when there are examples of this with other Shueisha properties outside Dragon Ball. Especially when, again, Victory Uchida (Toyotaro/V-Jump's editor) himself had pointed out beforehand in an interview to look forward to the new characters once they've been adapted outside the manga.

The source for said interview I have a hard time finding, but it's been brought up at earlier points in this thread.

“ While all 12 GoDs aren't important in the arc itself, Belmod absolutely is as the God of Destruction of Universe 11. They are also important to the background of the story via their very position.”

And still not important for the USS. They could’ve been removed from the arc and nothing would change.

You remove any and all exposition and narrative for Jiren by removing Belmod in both continuities. You also remove half the chemistry for Beerus to bounce off of in the arc as a non-combatant and a connection to the antagonists. I'd argue the former is heavily important for the antagonist-side, while the former is mildly necessary for the protagonists. But that's just me.

“ they still have Toyotaro actively participating in a way Toriyama would occasionally by having Toyotaro design Heroes characters (Sealas and Ahms.)”

Odd example when Toyo did Heroes years before working with Toriyama. He even did the Heroes manga for a time.

If they chose Toyotaro to do it exclusively for his history with Heroes then there's arguably no reason the character shouldn't have been drawn instead by the current artist (and artist of the prior 4 series for Heroes) Yoshitaka Nagayama. They asked Toyotaro to do it because of his current standing in regard to Dragon Ball as a whole as the writer/artist of the Super manga, not his past work with Heroes.

“ Beerus never specifically says "UI isn't for me", ”

Hw literally said moving without thinking didn’t suit a destroyer. Toyo isn’t subtitle.

I said I'd drop this but I'll comment one more time, you could interpret it as Beerus giving up on UI, or Beerus just tossing out another path for Vegeta to pursue while mocking Whis' technique per his standard behavior. Either way, we'll probably find out who's correct down the line on this one, and I don't particularly care that much about this if you really wanna choose to keep debating it further.

[Mr Baggins]

Shueisha's animated adaptations, without fail and rarely with exception, are the only ones that get any merchandise. I've followed Naruto, One Piece and Bleach for years, and it's especially obvious when you look at Naruto and Bleach. That's not something you need a "source" for; the proof is right there in the pudding.

What you would need a source for is this claim that Heroes doesn't use Ultra Ego because of "manga sales" or whatever. That's absurd on its face, and will most likely be disproven in due time.

But to touch on God Vegeta: when it was originally advertised for DBS Broly, the Super manga was officially shouted out. The larger franchise absolutely sees the manga as valuable, despite what are presumably licensing hiccups. No getting around it.

[Skar]

I was looking for that interview with Toyotaro's editor but this is all I found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonball/com ... new_anime/

Comment: I hope we can someday see Moro’s story on TV!
Uchida: I also cannot wait to see him! I hope someone can portray him like the detestable person that he is!

[Dragon Wukong]

Shueisha's animated adaptations, without fail and rarely without exception, are the only ones that get any merchandise. I've followed Naruto, One Piece and Bleach for years, and it's especially obvious when you look at Naruto and Bleach. That's not something you need a "source" for; the proof is right there in the pudding.

What you would need a source for is this claim that Heroes doesn't use Ultra Ego because of "manga sales" or whatever. That's absurd on its face, and will most likely be disproven in due time.

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with manga sales. You aren't going to see Code outside the manga until he appears in the Boruto anime, you arent't going to see Kaido's half-beast form outside the manga until he appears in the One Piece anime, we didn't see Ichigo's final zanpakuto outside the manga until they started licensing the manga content separately from the anime for videogames. This is why those units were considered limited in Bleach: Brave Souls. Seriously, google it. It was a thing. This isn't a situation exclusive to Dragon Ball. Until you can acknowledge what I'm talking about outside of Dragon Ball this discussion isn't going to go any further, because what I'm talking about isn't based on empirical evidence I can simply link to in regard to Dragon Ball but a reasonable conjecture based off information we can gather with other properties owned by Shueisha.

I really hope you can read the entirety of the above paragraph and actually understand what I'm pointing out here. Ultra Ego is the equivalent to Code/Kaido's Beast form/Ichigo's Zanpakuto here.

I was looking for that interview with Toyotaro's editor but this is all I found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonball/com ... new_anime/

Comment: I hope we can someday see Moro’s story on TV!
Uchida: I also cannot wait to see him! I hope someone can portray him like the detestable person that he is!

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe that was the interview I saw people commenting on previously.

[Mr Baggins]

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with manga sales.

...my guy. I was agreeing with your point, and adding to it. Read the post again.

I would have just quoted you otherwise. It was meant to be taken as a general contribution from my end.

Comment: I hope we can someday see Moro’s story on TV!
Uchida: I also cannot wait to see him! I hope someone can portray him like the detestable person that he is!

If anything, I'd say that also points to the inevitability of an adaptation in the future.