My B. For some reason I thought I was responding to HeroR. Re-reading the post I can see, yeah you're contributing to my point.Mr Baggins wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:12 am ...my guy. I was agreeing with your point, and adding to it. Read the post again.
I would have just quoted you otherwise. It was meant to be taken as a general contribution from my end.
"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
So, no source. So why are you stating your theory as a fact?Dragon Wukong wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:48 pmIt's not proof, but it is conjecture. Note that you haven't seen any instances of Kaido's half-beast form pop-up in One Piece outside the manga yet (and keep in mind, the anime keeps really close to the manga all things considered.) This issue with manga vs anime licensing is the official reason for why Bleach: Brave Souls (another product derived from one of Shueisha's published franchises) had been unable to utilize characters and forms from the Thousand-Year Blood War arc despite said arc having ended in the manga ages beforehand. It's an entirely separate deal of licensing than with anime products.HeroR wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:22 pm “ Toyotaro's stuff isn't used outside the manga for licensing reasons.”
Source. Because One Piece doesn’t have this issue. And if it’s licensed, how do manga Easter Eggs still show up in Heroes and Dokkan?
“ Heroes quite literally can't use something like Ultra Ego until we get to that point, which will probably happen AFTER Super Hero.”
Source for this.
The reason why techniques (Goku's Hakai, Vegeta's Gamma Burst Flash) can still be used in games like Heroes is most likely because they don't constitute a form of trademarked or copyrighted "design." So they're free to get away with that loophole before those arcs are properly animated or adapted at some point.
If you want to "no proof" this explanation then go ahead, but it would feel a bit naive of you to hard-wall and say this isn't the case when there are examples of this with other Shueisha properties outside Dragon Ball. Especially when, again, Victory Uchida (Toyotaro/V-Jump's editor) himself had pointed out beforehand in an interview to look forward to the new characters once they've been adapted outside the manga.
The source for said interview I have a hard time finding, but it's been brought up at earlier points in this thread.
You remove any and all exposition and narrative for Jiren by removing Belmod in both continuities. You also remove half the chemistry for Beerus to bounce off of in the arc as a non-combatant and a connection to the antagonists. I'd argue the former is heavily important for the antagonist-side, while the former is mildly necessary for the protagonists. But that's just me.HeroR wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:22 pm “ While all 12 GoDs aren't important in the arc itself, Belmod absolutely is as the God of Destruction of Universe 11. They are also important to the background of the story via their very position.”
And still not important for the USS. They could’ve been removed from the arc and nothing would change.
If they chose Toyotaro to do it exclusively for his history with Heroes then there's arguably no reason the character shouldn't have been drawn instead by the current artist (and artist of the prior 4 series for Heroes) Yoshitaka Nagayama. They asked Toyotaro to do it because of his current standing in regard to Dragon Ball as a whole as the writer/artist of the Super manga, not his past work with Heroes.
I said I'd drop this but I'll comment one more time, you could interpret it as Beerus giving up on UI, or Beerus just tossing out another path for Vegeta to pursue while mocking Whis' technique per his standard behavior. Either way, we'll probably find out who's correct down the line on this one, and I don't particularly care that much about this if you really wanna choose to keep debating it further.
Your theory have issues too. You’re telling me that they have no issues getting the license for Dragon Ball Online so they they can used characters like Towa, Mira, and Fuu for games like Heroes, Dokkan, and Xenoverse, but they somehow struggle to license the manga for something simple like Super Saiyan Black. Especially when Dragon Ball is in a completely different realm compare to Bleach when everything prints money.
And the example of Bleach would only explain why things pass the TOP wasn’t adapted. It doesn't example why almost everything before the TOP is ignored outside of Easter Eggs, unless you’re going to say there’s going to be an adaption of the Super manga like FMA: Brotherhood.
The only god Beerus interactive with was the mouse god and almost off that was a gag. Belmond and Jiren also barely spoke. Jiren’s backstory could have been told Toppo, that’s how little Belmond actually mattered.
Asking a former artist to do new work isn’t unusual, especially for a big release. Especially when it’s just two characters out of everything else that came out of Heroes.
He just now decide to give up UI after trying for millions of years? There isn’t anything pointing to he just gave up recently.
Last edited by HeroR on Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
The difference being is that Super wasn’t adapted from a manga and the anime rarely used anything from the manga. So it isn’t the same as Shueisha's adapting an 1:1 like One Piece. It stands out more with Dragon Ball because there is no new anime in sight and unlike with what happened with Bleach, Dragon Ball is still very popular. In fact, what’s happening with Dragon Ball is so odd that people who has follow merchandise talked about this along with even stuff from the anime not getting merchandise.Mr Baggins wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:08 pm Shueisha's animated adaptations, without fail and rarely without exception, are the only ones that get any merchandise. I've followed Naruto, One Piece and Bleach for years, and it's especially obvious when you look at Naruto and Bleach. That's not something you need a "source" for; the proof is right there in the pudding.
What you would need a source for is this claim that Heroes doesn't use Ultra Ego because of "manga sales" or whatever. That's absurd on its face, and will most likely be disproven in due time.
But to touch on God Vegeta: when it was originally advertised for DBS Broly, the Super manga was officially shouted out. The larger franchise absolutely sees the manga as valuable, despite what are presumably licensing hiccups. No getting around it.
I also never claimed that didn’t used UE because of sells. I said it’s telling that Heroes went and gave Vegeta his own form when they knew early about UE since they knew about UI to the point that the cards were printed before the anime premier. Heroes almost never give the heroes original forms. It took them over ten years to make an upgrade to Super Saiyan 4.
The manga has value, but for the most part it really doesn’t exist with Super Saiyan God Vegeta being the only real standout.
Also, since we’re talking about manga, if it’s licensed, how did Minus Bardock, Gine, and Kakarot get figures and was shown in Heroes years before they were animated in Broly?
Last edited by HeroR on Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
They've already lost the battle for Universe's strongest.
As Vegeta said there's nothing to protect here.
And he doesnt care if he dies anyway.
Neither saiyans has any power left.
Just 5 minutes ago Granolah was hellbent on their extermination, and Gas is a generic bad guy I guess. But he's not exactly threatened anything they care about.
They could watch the outcome at Whis' place or just sense the outcome now they know where they're fighting.
Why are the saiyans instantly best buddies with Granolah to the point of staying?
Vegeta especially. He wants Granolah to fight his own fight. He's given him the senzu- the tools to do that, so why is he not leaving?
It's also not like they have a problem letting strong evil people go free anyway, just look how they're lettiing Frieza operate.
As Vegeta said there's nothing to protect here.
And he doesnt care if he dies anyway.
Neither saiyans has any power left.
Just 5 minutes ago Granolah was hellbent on their extermination, and Gas is a generic bad guy I guess. But he's not exactly threatened anything they care about.
They could watch the outcome at Whis' place or just sense the outcome now they know where they're fighting.
Why are the saiyans instantly best buddies with Granolah to the point of staying?
Vegeta especially. He wants Granolah to fight his own fight. He's given him the senzu- the tools to do that, so why is he not leaving?
It's also not like they have a problem letting strong evil people go free anyway, just look how they're lettiing Frieza operate.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
No worries. You've always been one of the better contributors here, at least in my opinion. Rarely have you said anything I've found disagreeable.Dragon Wukong wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:29 am My B. For some reason I thought I was responding to HeroR. Re-reading the post I can see, yeah you're contributing to my point.
Oof. Should someone tell him, or should I?
Hint: it's a word that starts with "B", combined with the fact that these are all video games, and it's very relevant to licensing.
But this:
...has nothing to do with licensing, so it's pretty irrelevant to the conversation. Also, the anime isn't ongoing right now. He's dead, Jim.
You seem to keep doing this thing (and other people have pointed this out) where you're moving goalposts and cherrypicking evidence when it benefits you, and that's not very sincere. It just doesn't seem like you're interested in having a genuine discussion about this. I myself am not interested in continuing these protracted back-and-forths you keep doing with everyone, so I'm gonna have to take a rain check on this one.
Like I said, in due time you'll probably see what I mean. I'm just gonna leave it at that.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):
Spoiler:
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Hi guys and merry Christmas. But there is an extra page in this manga Super
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I think the movie will confirm their consideration of the manga.
We had 2 arc with some notable addition to the lore. Let's see if anyone says anything about what happened.
We had 2 arc with some notable addition to the lore. Let's see if anyone says anything about what happened.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Oh ok. I tried searching on the forum and found this:Dragon Wukong wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:03 amI'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe that was the interview I saw people commenting on previously.
Spoiler:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I don't think that will happen. Judging by the tone and plot of the movie, they can probably get away without having to reference events that only occurred in the manga, especially since Goku and Vegeta probably won't be much involved when it comes to fights.
It's good to remember that even DBS Broly barely referenced the tournament of power. And the movie just did it through a frame that contained characters that Goku faced / saw fight in both the anime and the manga, in addition to the well-known lack of SSB Kaioken / Evolution / Perfected, plus the brief explanation that Freeza was revived to justify his appearance in the movie (also, without any mention of Ultra Instinct). In other words, it was as vague as it can be about any exclusive manga / anime stuff, even though the anime was fresh in people's minds having just been finished.
But I also don't think any of this is supposed to be "confirmation" or "proof" of wheter they take the manga into account or not (we know they do, as seen with DBS Broly), although I'm sure people will use it as such. Anyway, it seems to be just a trend for Toriyama to create movies that can act as self contained stories, so they can be watched in isolation, requiring very little knowledge of past events (or at least, they can be easily followed just by watching his other canonical movies with some brief explanation about whatever happened in the latest arc). And on top of that, that way they don't really have to commit to other media or specific arcs to tell these stories
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Even on Beerus' planet, stuff like Vegeta's Hakai Training or the earring could be referenced. Unless he resigns it himself by the time of Granolah arc ends so there's no contradiction.TheSaiyanGod wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:00 am I don't think that will happen. Judging by the tone and plot of the movie, they can probably get away without having to reference events that only occurred in the manga, especially since Goku and Vegeta probably won't be much involved when it comes to fights.
Maybe something like "I'll go my own path, I'm not fit to be a Destroyer." and he'll give Beerus the earring back or just destroy it just like Goku resigned from Galactic Patrol last arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Thank you! That's the one I was talking about.Skar wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:39 amI'm not sure which panel that was or if there's a different source confirming what he said.Mister_Popo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:43 pmIntangibleFancy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:36 pm
So was it a simple mistranslation or twitter clickbait?
I saw it on Saiyko Devins (French Youtuber) channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eak54QOMemg&t=724s
Saiyko is mostly correct about this stuff.
He said Uchida only gave that answer during the panel, and did not actually confirm the animes pre-production going on at the moment.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Well he apparently had something in mind, because he said he'd surpass Goku his "own way" before Beerus even said anything about Hakai.
Last edited by TBMx on Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I think they're aiming the movies at the "saw Z as a kid but didn't keep up with Super" crowd, hence why Broly only vaguely referenced the events of Super and Superhero seems to have nothing to do with anything besides Broly.TheSaiyanGod wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:00 amI don't think that will happen. Judging by the tone and plot of the movie, they can probably get away without having to reference events that only occurred in the manga, especially since Goku and Vegeta probably won't be much involved when it comes to fights.
It's good to remember that even DBS Broly barely referenced the tournament of power. And the movie just did it through a frame that contained characters that Goku faced / saw fight in both the anime and the manga, in addition to the well-known lack of SSB Kaioken / Evolution / Perfected, plus the brief explanation that Freeza was revived to justify his appearance in the movie (also, without any mention of Ultra Instinct). In other words, it was as vague as it can be about any exclusive manga / anime stuff, even though the anime was fresh in people's minds having just been finished.
But I also don't think any of this is supposed to be "confirmation" or "proof" of wheter they take the manga into account or not (we know they do, as seen with DBS Broly), although I'm sure people will use it as such. Anyway, it seems to be just a trend for Toriyama to create movies that can act as self contained stories, so they can be watched in isolation, requiring very little knowledge of past events (or at least, they can be easily followed just by watching his other canonical movies with some brief explanation about whatever happened in the latest arc). And on top of that, that way they don't really have to commit to other media or specific arcs to tell these stories
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Given how huge Super was, I'd be surprised if this was a real crowd. Let alone a sizeable crowd...
Broly vaguely referenced the events of Super precisely because everyone already watched Super anyway (Super also finished airing a few months before Broly aired)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I know they can (they could even get Goku and Vegeta to briefly mention Granolah or the Heeters), I just don't think they will because it's not really necessary. The plot of the movie is going in a totally different direction and apparently Goku and Vegeta are going to have a much smaller role, so on top of all of that they will hardly even need to use anything beyond Super Saiyan Blue (if they even use Super Saiyan forms at all).Xeogran wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:44 am
Even on Beerus' planet, stuff like Vegeta's Hakai Training or the earring could be referenced. Unless he resigns it himself by the time of Granolah arc ends so there's no contradiction.
Maybe something like "I'll go my own path, I'm not fit to be a Destroyer." and he'll give Beerus the earring back or just destroy it just like Goku resigned from Galactic Patrol last arc.
And I think if they can avoid referencing previous material that doesn't have a direct bearing on the film's story, they will. As I said they even avoided major expositons about the ToP, and it seems they really only mentioned it because they needed to explain that Freeza was alive. Not even Ultra Instinct (which was a big deal in that arc) was mentioned. So I think the same will happen with Granolah arc and Super Hero, which will be more like a slice of life story anyway. But of course I can be wrong in the end, we have to wait and see.
But also as I said, I don't think this will be any kind of "proof" for whatever people want it to be, since it looks like Toriyama is heading in the direction of self contained / isolated stories for his canonical movies
Yes, it is possible. One can watch BoG, RoF and Broly one after the other and can understand the story without getting totally lost (assuming he hasn't been following DBS), and I think that's the direction Toriyama might be heading since Super Hero looks like it will do the same. It's almost like a continuity of its own, even though it somehow borrows elements from other media as well.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
"Almost like"? Pretty sure it's crystal clear that the movies are in another coninuity at this point.
And as someone who sticks to them, I'd say that the only thing one can be a bit confused about is by Freeza being alive and appearing in Movie 1. Not that you need to waste time watching or reading Universe Survival saga in order to understand that, but you need to know that at the end of it, Freeza was brought back.
The movie kind of explains this, though Goku just says Freeza helped them during the tournament. Maybe it's possible to jump to the conclusion that Freeza's reward was to be revived, that'd be one hell of a (correct) guess!
Other than that detail, yeah, you can watch just the movies and still be able to understand what's going on, it's not like Dragon Ball is that deep to begin with.
And as someone who sticks to them, I'd say that the only thing one can be a bit confused about is by Freeza being alive and appearing in Movie 1. Not that you need to waste time watching or reading Universe Survival saga in order to understand that, but you need to know that at the end of it, Freeza was brought back.
The movie kind of explains this, though Goku just says Freeza helped them during the tournament. Maybe it's possible to jump to the conclusion that Freeza's reward was to be revived, that'd be one hell of a (correct) guess!
Other than that detail, yeah, you can watch just the movies and still be able to understand what's going on, it's not like Dragon Ball is that deep to begin with.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Super is definitely not as big as you make it seem. I know a lot of people who went to see Broly at the cinema and haven't seen Dragon Ball since Z or BoG/RF. Not everyone has the time to sit through a weekly 131 episode series.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:25 amGiven how huge Super was, I'd be surprised if this was a real crowd. Let alone a sizeable crowd...
Broly vaguely referenced the events of Super precisely because everyone already watched Super anyway (Super also finished airing a few months before Broly aired)
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Yes, I know about the anime, but that isn’t the point. The point is that even stuff before the anime ended gets almost nothing. Forget Moro and Granola, where is the stuff before that point? Using Bleach as an example doesn’t explain why there is no Super Saiyan Black merchandise and even people who follow merchandise says this is odd.Mr Baggins wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:14 amNo worries. You've always been one of the better contributors here, at least in my opinion. Rarely have you said anything I've found disagreeable.Dragon Wukong wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:29 am My B. For some reason I thought I was responding to HeroR. Re-reading the post I can see, yeah you're contributing to my point.
Oof. Should someone tell him, or should I?
Hint: it's a word that starts with "B", combined with the fact that these are all video games, and it's very relevant to licensing.
But this:
...has nothing to do with licensing, so it's pretty irrelevant to the conversation. Also, the anime isn't ongoing right now. He's dead, Jim.
You seem to keep doing this thing (and other people have pointed this out) where you're moving goalposts and cherrypicking evidence when it benefits you, and that's not very sincere. It just doesn't seem like you're interested in having a genuine discussion about this. I myself am not interested in continuing these protracted back-and-forths you keep doing with everyone, so I'm gonna have to take a rain check on this one.
Like I said, in due time you'll probably see what I mean. I'm just gonna leave it at that.
“ Like I said, in due time you'll probably see what I mean. I'm just gonna leave it at that.”.
People been telling me that for years.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
In Japan, Super took over the Z name as the primary Dragon Ball brand, Zamasu and Jiren are more popular than Cell with Black rivaling Frieza and Broly, and Super is the reason Dragon Ball makes more than One Piece in Japan where it was Toei’s main money maker for over a decade. It’s just as big as SupremeKai25 suggests.Yuji wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:59 pmSuper is definitely not as big as you make it seem. I know a lot of people who went to see Broly at the cinema and haven't seen Dragon Ball since Z or BoG/RF. Not everyone has the time to sit through a weekly 131 episode series.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:25 amGiven how huge Super was, I'd be surprised if this was a real crowd. Let alone a sizeable crowd...
Broly vaguely referenced the events of Super precisely because everyone already watched Super anyway (Super also finished airing a few months before Broly aired)
Honestly, the US is really the only market that still uses the Z label as the prime market source. And even then, you have Blue Goku in the Marcy Parade.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Super literally broken streaming sites when certain episodes dropped (like the Goku vs. Jiren "OVA"). And there were massive crowds watching it live-stream towards the end of the show. It absolutely was big.Yuji wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:59 pmSuper is definitely not as big as you make it seem. I know a lot of people who went to see Broly at the cinema and haven't seen Dragon Ball since Z or BoG/RF. Not everyone has the time to sit through a weekly 131 episode series.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:25 amGiven how huge Super was, I'd be surprised if this was a real crowd. Let alone a sizeable crowd...
Broly vaguely referenced the events of Super precisely because everyone already watched Super anyway (Super also finished airing a few months before Broly aired)
I didn't deny that there might be some people who haven't watched it for whatever reason, but not nearly enough to make a noteworthy minority...
Also 131 episodes aren't that many, and if you skip the first two arcs (which are just retelling), the actual episodes that tell a new story are roughly 100 episodes (even fewer if you want to remove other "filler" episodes like the "filler" episodes between FT and ToP arcs). If someone doesn't have the time to sit through roughly 100 episodes they probably don't have the time to watch anime period.
Yes. In all official polls I've seen, Goku Black consistently ranks as one of the most popular characters/villains in the franchise, surpassed only by Frieza (and by Broly in one poll I've seen).HeroR wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:58 pmIn Japan, Super took over the Z name as the primary Dragon Ball brand, Zamasu and Jiren are more popular than Cell with Black rivaling Frieza and Broly, and Super is the reason Dragon Ball makes more than One Piece in Japan where it was Toei’s main money maker for over a decade. It’s just as big as SupremeKai25 suggests.Yuji wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:59 pmSuper is definitely not as big as you make it seem. I know a lot of people who went to see Broly at the cinema and haven't seen Dragon Ball since Z or BoG/RF. Not everyone has the time to sit through a weekly 131 episode series.SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:25 am
Given how huge Super was, I'd be surprised if this was a real crowd. Let alone a sizeable crowd...
Broly vaguely referenced the events of Super precisely because everyone already watched Super anyway (Super also finished airing a few months before Broly aired)
Honestly, the US is really the only market that still uses the Z label as the prime market source. And even then, you have Blue Goku in the Marcy Parade.