Are the Saiya-jin stronger than Piccolo in their base forms?

[James R. Cadwell]

Why are Dayspring and I the only ones that can see what the evidence shows?

- Explain how Vegeta stating he can win the Tenkaichi Budokai without using Super Saiya-jin indicates that Piccolo is stronger than his normal form.

- Explain how Babidi and Darbura stating that only non-SSJ Gohan, Vegeta and Goku have impressive powers indicates that Piccolo is stronger than their base forms. (without requiring theories with no supporting evidence)

I honestly don't see how anyone can look at those examples and reach a conclusion contrary to the implication.

However, no one really has provided any real evidence AGAINST Vegeta, Gohan, or Goku being stronger than Piccolo in their base forms in the Buu saga. All we've seen are theoretical denials of Vegeta and Dabura/Babidi's statements. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I just haven't seen a true contradicting piece of evidence against what's been mentioned in favor of this seemingly unwelcomed opinion. I'm a little skeptic about the Cell era, but it seems very true that the base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo by the time Buu shows up.

This is basically a very concise way of describing my primary issue with this entire argument. We only have evidence showing that the base form Saiya-jin are stronger than Piccolo. We don't have any evidence supporting the opposite conclusion.

[Xyex]

Why are Dayspring and I the only ones that can see what the evidence shows?

- Explain how Vegeta stating he can win the Tenkaichi Budokai without using Super Saiya-jin indicates that Piccolo is stronger than his normal form.

Easy, Vegeta always claims to be the strongest. Him saying that is the same as when he said it againt Goku, when he said it against, Frieza, 18, and Perfect Cell. Never has he claimed anyone to be stronger until the Kid Buu fight when he conceded that Goku was his superior.

- Explain how Babidi and Darbura stating that only non-SSJ Gohan, Vegeta and Goku have impressive powers indicates that Piccolo is stronger than their base forms. (without requiring theories with no supporting evidence)

Show me where it says non Super Saiya-jin. Oh, that's right, it dosen't. NEVER does Babidi or Dabura mention that the Saiya-jins are stronger than Piccolo when in their base form. They only indicate that they can sense them and that they feel to be more powerful. That's not proof. Statements like that can be made anyone.

I honestly don't see how anyone can look at those examples and reach a conclusion contrary to the implication.

Which is exactly why I can't understand why you think he's weaker... it makes no sense.

However, no one really has provided any real evidence AGAINST Vegeta, Gohan, or Goku being stronger than Piccolo in their base forms in the Buu saga. All we've seen are theoretical denials of Vegeta and Dabura/Babidi's statements. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I just haven't seen a true contradicting piece of evidence against what's been mentioned in favor of this seemingly unwelcomed opinion. I'm a little skeptic about the Cell era, but it seems very true that the base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo by the time Buu shows up.

This is basically a very concise way of describing my primary issue with this entire argument. We only have evidence showing that the base form Saiya-jin are stronger than Piccolo. We don't have any evidence supporting the opposite conclusion.

We do not have any real evidence that dosen't require assumption that makes Piccolo weaker. Everything you've mentioned requries that you assume something. I'll do your thing now and leave some examples.

- Vegeta's blast against Cell: Surprise attack, no evidence it actually did anything to Cell or effect him in anyway other than noticing someone had tried to attack him.

- Babidi & Dabura's comments: People have been wrong numerous times before about people powers. This in no way is any kind of evidence.

- Vegeta claiming he'd win the Budokai even in his base form: Um, hello, Vegeta!? We're talking about Mr. Arrogant, Eggotistical, Hollier than thou Vegeta here. Of course he'd say that!

[oponok]

Transformations. It's posible that what Babidi and Dabura could feel were the lowered base powers of the Saiya-jin's + the full of their SSJ powers. (What I mean is what their power as SSJ's would be if their lowered base PL was their actual full power.) Where as Piccolo has no tranformations they would only sense his lowered power. This is just one of dozens of explantions.

This is an assumption, though. What the evidence here shows is that Babidi and Dabura can tell Vegeta, Gohan, and Goku are stronger than Piccolo in their base forms. Since they don't know the Saiyans can transform, they likely don't know their full power. You say what's POSSIBLE, but it's not like Babidi said, "Hey Dabura! Those three dudes with blackhair have secret transformations of which I sense the energy of. The green one's a puss, though." What you say may possibly somehow be what is true, HOWEVER, the fact that the three Saiyans were in their base forms would indicate the opposite. You can theorize, but what's there is what's there. It shows the three Saiyans in there normal forms surpressing their power, Babidi and Dabura sense they're stronger than Piccolo.

No one's really provided any real evidence FOR the Saiya-jins having PL's beyond that of Piccolo while in their base forms. The only thing that even remotely works in favor of that is the Vegeta blast against Cell but that's nothing definitave. James even pointed out Krillin and Gohan handling Ginyu while he was in Goku's body. There are numerous times when people considerably weaker than the other person has done some damage, or at least been an annoyance.

Piccolo couldn't approach Cell. He got blown away. Vegeta could, even after he had the shit slapped out of him by a "SSJ2" Cell.

Why are Dayspring and I the only ones that can see what the evidence shows?

Because you have theories, not hard evidence. You claim that Babidi and Dabura MAY have sensed the Saiyans' SSJ Ki, but there's nothing to show that. That's all nice and good, but what the manga and anime show us is that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are in their normal forms, and Babidi and Dabura sense their current powers. You can hypothesize, but until you show something from the manga or anime that totally proves otherwise, then I can't really change my opinion. The evidence FOR the Saiyans surpassing Piccolo was from the manga, not my head. It's there in (literally) black and white.

Because this time was different. Every other time he unlocked his powers it merely raised his strength for a few moments, and only while angry, then it would go away again. This time it fuled his tranformation into SSJ2, it didn't temporarily raise his power. And gaining a new transformation dosen't power up a person's base form.

After Gohan learned to fight, there's no true indication that he DIDN"T keep his power, he was usually just quickly outclassed after becoming angry, whether it was the Ginyu Force or Freeza.

[James R. Cadwell]

Easy, Vegeta always claims to be the strongest. Him saying that is the same as when he said it againt Goku, when he said it against, Freeza, 18, and Perfect Cell.

Vegeta didn't have to protect his ego during the Tenkaichi Budokai. He could have beaten Piccolo and #18 easily using SSJ. He says it isn't necessary, though.

When has Vegeta ever stated that it was unnecessary to use SSJ against a much more powerful opponent?

Show me where it says non Super Saiya-jin. Oh, that's right, it dosen't. NEVER does Babidi or Dabura mention that the Saiya-jins are stronger than Piccolo when in their base form. They only indicate that they can sense them and that they feel to be more powerful. That's not proof. Statements like that can be made anywhere.

Babidi and Darbura sense that Gohan, Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than Piccolo in their base forms.

Which is exactly why I can't understand why you think he's weaker... it makes no sense.

Why does it make no sense? There is zero evidence supporting the position that Piccolo is stronger.

- Vegeta's blast against Cell: Surprise attack, no evidence it actually did anything to Cell or effect him in anyway other than noticing someone had tried to attack him.

Why didn't Piccolo do this?

- Babidi & Dabura's comments: People have been wrong numerous times before about people powers. This in no way is any kind of evidence.

People have been correct about power levels more often. You dismiss their statements because it is possible that they're wrong. Explain why this reasoning is more valid than accepting the evidence at face-value.

- Vegeta claiming he'd win the Budokai even in his base form: Um, hello, Vegeta!? We're talking about Mr. Arrogant, Eggotistical, Hollier than thou Vegeta here. Of course he'd say that!

Gohan also believes he can win the tournament using his base form.

EDIT: I have a theory that Kuririn is stronger than base form Vegeta. Everyone might have possibly been wrong when they evaluated his power. This possibility refutes all evidence to the contrary.

[TripleRach]

I hope everyone can keep it civil and not get too flustered over this. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

We can all agree that when Piccolo reunited with Kami, he was stronger than all the Saiya-jin at the moment, correct? But shortly after this, the four of them trained intensely in the ROSAT. When the four of them were done with that training, they were all shown to be much stronger than before, yes?

It has been my belief that SSJ is multiplicative, and I do have basis for this. If SSJ1 were a set level, why is it that Trunks is stronger than Goten? It's also obvious that the Fusion characters in their base form are already considerably stronger than any accepted level of SSJ, so why would they bother to use SSJ if it weren't multiplicative of their present power? There is also the Vegeta vs Puipui example I mentioned earlier in the thread.

One might argue, "If SSJ is just multiplicative factor against their base form, why do they bother learning new transformations instead of just getting stronger in their base?" My answer for that would be that it's the same reason Gokuu would increase his factor of Kaiouken instead of stopping to train further: convenience, and time limits.

I don't entirely agree that the base Saiya-jin had all surpassed Piccolo in the Cell Saga (though I don't necessarily disagree, either), but I think it's definitely feasible by the Buu saga.

I would also like to note that Babidi and Darbura couldn't have been fully aware of the benefits of SSJ if they were so shocked by Vegeta's performance against Puipui, as well as Gokuu's performance against Yakon. At the very least, they had certainly underestimated the three Saiya-jin. To completely throw out their observations is to say that they underestimated Piccolo by even more than that, and there really is no evidence to support such a suggestion.

[Xyex]

I've seen the SSJ form is a changeable increase. At the beggining it's dependant upon your base power but your skill and ability, among other factors, enables your SSJ state be stronger or weaker than someone elses. Stronger even if your base is weaker kind of thing. That explains why Goku and Gohan remained in their SSJ states before the Cell Games.

[Deus ex Machina]

One might argue, "If SSJ is just multiplicative factor against their base form, why do they bother learning new transformations instead of just getting stronger in their base?" My answer for that would be that it's the same reason Gokuu would increase his factor of Kaiouken instead of stopping to train further: convenience, and time limits.

I completly agree with you on this point, but I also believe that training as a SSJ will increase that fighters power AS a SSJ. For example, a normal SSJ transformation multiplied Goku's battle power 50x against Freeza, but after training in the room of spirit & time, that increase could've been 100x. I also believe that while the multiplication factor can be raised, I also believe it has a limit. Goku didn't even spend a full year inside and said that he had already reached his limits.

I don't entirely agree that the base Saiya-jin had all surpassed Piccolo in the Cell Saga (though I don't necessarily disagree, either), but I think it's definitely feasible by the Buu saga.

I think everyone is over-looking a big factor here; Babidi claimed that their was only 3 very large powers, but all of the Z-senshi were suppressing their Ki. It just may be that Piccolo was better at hiding his Ki than the others, making him appear weaker.

[Xyex]

I think everyone is over-looking a big factor here; Babidi claimed that their was only 3 very large powers, but all of the Z-senshi were suppressing their Ki. It just may be that Piccolo was better at hiding his Ki than the others, making him appear weaker.

Thank-you! I've said this before too. Piccolo just seems to have a more strategic mind than the others, with the possible exception of Vegeta, but he's not one for subtlety.

[Izlude]

And besides... we all know if Dabura didnt spit his potty mouth on Piccolo, he would of gotten his ass beat by the green man himself.

[James R. Cadwell]

I completly agree with you on this point, but I also believe that training as a SSJ will increase that fighters power AS a SSJ. For example, a normal SSJ transformation multiplied Goku's battle power 50x against Freeza, but after training in the room of spirit & time, that increase could've been 100x. I also believe that while the multiplication factor can be raised, I also believe it has a limit. Goku didn't even spend a full year inside and said that he had already reached his limits.

It seems like a limit to the multiplication factor is a necessary component to that theory -- otherwise it wouldn't make sense for SSJ characters to expend much effort on their normal forms, when they obviously do.

I think everyone is over-looking a big factor here; Babidi claimed that their was only 3 very large powers, but all of the Z-senshi were suppressing their Ki. It just may be that Piccolo was better at hiding his Ki than the others, making him appear weaker.

No. This point was addressed earlier. Babidi and Darbura described three impressive energies. Three battle powers suppressed to 5000 aren't "amazing energies". It's obvious that the "ki" suppression trick just wasn't fooling Babidi and Darbura.

And besides... we all know if Dabura didnt spit his potty mouth on Piccolo, he would of gotten his ass beat by the green man himself.

I wouldn't have minded seeing a brief fight between Piccolo and Darbura, even though it would have been over quickly.

[Dayspring]

No. This point was addressed earlier. Babidi and Darbura described three impressive energies. Three battle powers suppressed to 5000 aren't "amazing energies". It's obvious that the "ki" suppression trick just wasn't fooling Babidi and Darbura.

It is if he's comparing to them every other PL on the planet. It would also explain why they were freaked when Goku+co went SSJ.

I wouldn't have minded seeing a brief fight between Piccolo and Darbura, even though it would have been over quickly.

Not necessarilly. He may have spat on him to avoid just that. Dabura was only as strong as Cell, afterall. Piccolo had 7 years to close the gap. Though I think he'd still lose, I think Piccolo would have lasted better than PuiPui against Vegeta.

[Neon Z]

Not necessarilly. He may have spat on him to avoid just that. Dabura was only as strong as Cell, afterall. Piccolo had 7 years to close the gap. Though I think he'd still lose, I think Piccolo would have lasted better than PuiPui against Vegeta.

There's no proof that Piccolo trained during those 7 years.

Even though Goku stated that Dabura was as strong as Cell, later, he corrected himself, and said that Dabura was stronger than Cell.

[Xyex]

No. This point was addressed earlier. Babidi and Darbura described three impressive energies. Three battle powers suppressed to 5000 aren't "amazing energies". It's obvious that the "ki" suppression trick just wasn't fooling Babidi and Darbura.

Aren't you forgetting something? Like the fact they're on Earth? Like the fact they scouted the planet hundreds of years ago? Like the fact that even 1,000 is damn impressive for Earth when you don't know about the events that have happened over recent years or the presence of the Saiya-jins. For all you know Piccolo's power was suppressed to 50, Goku and Gohan where at 3,500 and Vegeta was at 5,000. Those would be impressive to Dabura and Babidi.

There's no proof that Piccolo trained during those 7 years.

Show me the proof that he didn't train. Since when would Piccolo NOT train? He always trains. Him not training would be the same as Goku doing advanced calculas or Vegeta writing sappy poetry.

[Neon Z]

Why would he train? Piccolo surely doesn't dislike fighting, but he has never shown any special interest towards it.

Piccolo trained:

1- To kill Goku, and conquer the world, in db.

2- To kill Goku, and conquer the world, between db and a dbz.

3- To defeat the Sayajins and conquer the world, dbz.

4- To defeat Freeza and save Gohan.

5- To protect Earth from the androids, dbz.

6- To protect Earth from Cell, dbz.

He never trained just to get stronger, or simply to become stronger than someone else, without wanting to kill that person.

He only showed some interest towards fighting in db, during the last budokai, but that wasn't anything special, he just commented that the tournament was getting "fun" when he thought that he had killed Kuririn.

Also, all those times that Piccolo trained, but the training to fight against Cell, Yamcha also trained. No one says that Yamcha trains all the time, so, why are you saying that Piccolo always trains?

[Xyex]

No one debates that Vegeta trained during the seven years before Buu and yet, from his arrival onward the only reason he trained was to surpass and kill Frieza and Goku, and by the end of the Cell games both of them were dead. Besides, what else is Piccolo going to do? He's a fighter after all. And he did enter the tournament which shows he has an interest in fighting. So you still haven't given any evidence that he didn't train. Only Yamcha, Krillin, and Gohan slacked off.

[Dayspring]

Also, using your (Neon's) arguments, why did Piccolo train between Namek and Freeza's arrival on Earth? Even if you argue that he's pure good now, he'd train, like everyone else, just for the sake of it and/or in case of future attacks from unknown ennemies.

[James R. Cadwell]

Aren't you forgetting something? Like the fact they're on Earth? Like the fact they scouted the planet hundreds of years ago? Like the fact that even 1,000 is damn impressive for Earth when you don't know about the events that have happened over recent years or the presence of the Saiya-jins. For all you know Piccolo's power was suppressed to 50, Goku and Gohan where at 3,500 and Vegeta was at 5,000. Those would be impressive to Dabura and Babidi.

The number I gave was just an example.

The purpose of suppressing their "ki" was to remain hidden from Babidi and Darbura. A battle power of approximately 300 - 1,500 is enough to register on every scouter for kilometers. Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo could avoid being detected as they approached Freeza's forces on Earth, so they must be capable of lowering their battle power way below that level. Goku couldn't be that much worse at the technique.

It's more likely that everyone had their battle power suppressed as well as possible (below the scouter detection threshold) and Babidi and Darbura could just see through that trick. Remember, they specifically identified Kaioshin and Kibito, three amazing energies, and two not worth mentioning. There's no reason to assume that Piccolo is an order of magnitude better at concealing his energy -- otherwise why not assume that Kuririn was equally capable and Babidi and Darbura were wrong about him, too?

Not necessarilly. He may have spat on him to avoid just that.

IIRC, Babidi instructed Darbura to kill everyone besides the three people with impressive energy.

Dabura was only as strong as Cell, afterall. Piccolo had 7 years to close the gap. Though I think he'd still lose, I think Piccolo would have lasted better than PuiPui against Vegeta.

Piccolo said Kaioshin was much stronger than him. Kaioshin thought it might be necessary to gang-up against Pui-Pui.

[Neon Z]

Also, using your (Neon's) arguments, why did Piccolo train between Namek and Freeza's arrival on Earth? Even if you argue that he's pure good now, he'd train, like everyone else, just for the sake of it and/or in case of future attacks from unknown ennemies.

Is it ever stated that he trained during that time frame? If it is, then, my theory was wrong, and Piccolo surely trained before Boo Saga.

[Xyex]

Aren't you forgetting something? Like the fact they're on Earth? Like the fact they scouted the planet hundreds of years ago? Like the fact that even 1,000 is damn impressive for Earth when you don't know about the events that have happened over recent years or the presence of the Saiya-jins. For all you know Piccolo's power was suppressed to 50, Goku and Gohan where at 3,500 and Vegeta was at 5,000. Those would be impressive to Dabura and Babidi.

The number I gave was just an example.

The purpose of suppressing their "ki" was to remain hidden from Babidi and Darbura. A battle power of approximately 300 - 1,500 is enough to register on every scouter for kilometers. Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo could avoid being detected as they approached Freeza's forces on Earth, so they must be capable of lowering their battle power way below that level. Goku couldn't be that much worse at the technique.

Flying requires Ki. Show me that Dabura didn't sense them flying in? That's all it would take.

Dabura was only as strong as Cell, afterall. Piccolo had 7 years to close the gap. Though I think he'd still lose, I think Piccolo would have lasted better than PuiPui against Vegeta.

Piccolo said Kaioshin was much stronger than him. Kaioshin thought it might be necessary to gang-up against Pui-Pui.

Piccolo ASSUMED that Shin was stronger than him. He said that Shin was stronger than everyone. He backed out of the fight out of respect, even if he wasn't certain who Shin was yet, not because he wouldn't win. And Shin sucks at power estimates, I highly doubt Pui Pui was even as powerfull as Frieza's full power. He'd be lucky to be that close.

[James R. Cadwell]

Flying requires Ki. Show me that Dabura didn't sense them flying in? That's all it would take.

So Piccolo uses less "ki" when flying than anyone else? Prove this. By the way, asking someone to prove a negative is fallacious logic.

Piccolo ASSUMED that Shin was stronger than him.

Prove that Piccolo was making an assumption. Quote/scene reference? When did Piccolo say "I was only assuming that Kaioshin had more power"?

He said that Shin was stronger than everyone.

When?

He backed out of the fight out of respect, even if he wasn't certain who Shin was yet, not because he wouldn't win.

That's your assumption. Piccolo only says that Kaioshin was much stronger than him. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, we have no reason to assume Piccolo was lying.

And Shin sucks at power estimates.

Evidence?

I highly doubt Pui Pui was even as powerfull as Freeza's full power. He'd be lucky to be that close.

Your opinion. Kaioshin thought it might be necessary to gang-up against Pui-Pui. Kaioshin also says he could have defeated Freeza with a single attack. You have never provided an example of Kaioshin overestimating another character's power level.