Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[Pafupafu]

Good writing can elevate even the least powerful characters in the series. The tournament structure typically allows for weaker characters to face equally powered foes and still have drama. It didn’t really work so well in Super but that’s definitely the mechanism of it. The problem is the writing and plotting just hasn’t been that strong.

Tenshinhan keeping Cell at bay is a perfect example of good writing that has drama to it. More moments like this where supporting characters surprisingly contribute to an overarching goal is where ensemble works best.

I would also say that eliminating the Earthling fighters from the story would be a mistake as Son Goku and Vegeta are primarily motivated to achieve more power but also to protect the ensemble. Some of these Earthling characters have been around since the very earliest chapters of the series and to see their growth and slice of life stories is really fun, they just have to be interesting and well-written.

[dva_raza]

The other characters are preventing the story from truly moving forward. By dropping those characters or replacing them, the series could then evolve. Meaningful character moments for meaningless characters will only keep the story standing still. Or rather, they won't make the story move forward.

I think Toriyama adding new and great characters is enough to give the story many ways to continue and keep evolving. Getting rid of the rest of the cast is unsustainable cause then it wouldn'tbe Dragon Ball anymore, it would kinda lose it's trademark dynamic. Even if it's just getting rid of Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Krillin

[MyVisionity]

The other characters are preventing the story from truly moving forward. By dropping those characters or replacing them, the series could then evolve. Meaningful character moments for meaningless characters will only keep the story standing still. Or rather, they won't make the story move forward.

I think Toriyama adding new and great characters is enough to give the story many ways to continue and keep evolving. Getting rid of the rest of the cast is unsustainable cause then it wouldn'tbe Dragon Ball anymore, it would kinda lose it's trademark dynamic. Even if it's just getting rid of Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Krillin

It can't work both ways. If you're going to add new characters, then inevitably you have to drop some. A balance between old and new characters can only exist but for so long. Shows that don't understand this tend to fall apart. (House, MD)

As long as you have Goku, you have Dragon Ball. The "trademark dynamic" can evolve and change. It has to, in order for the story to move forward. There are more than enough characters that can fill the space left by Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Kuririn.

[ABED]

House fell apart for other reasons than not finding a balance between old and new characters. DB is Goku's story but it's more than just Goku. There are so many great core relationships that to do a nearly complete turnover is the wrong move. Those are dynamics you can't recreate. What you are talking about isn't moving the story forward, it's keeping the franchise going. That's not the same thing.

[BWri]

House fell apart for other reasons than not finding a balance between old and new characters. DB is Goku's story but it's more than just Goku. There are so many great core relationships that to do a nearly complete turnover is the wrong move. Those are dynamics you can't recreate. What you are talking about isn't moving the story forward, it's keeping the franchise going. That's not the same thing.

Yeah, especially characters like Roshi who've deeply affected Goku's growth. I think if one were to strip the series down then keeping Roshi and Krillin are a must. I would say that Krillin should be getting additional developments too.

I'm also over the Goku and Vegeta dynamic. I like Vegeta, but I'd like a new rival for Goku. I know Goku has a lot of rivals now, but it doesn't feel nearly as contentious as early Goku v Piccolo or Goku v Vegeta from Z. Since the Saiyan rivals are now training together it almost feels like a replacement of Goku v Krillin. I'm just not a fan of the dynamic since I now feel it takes away from Vegeta's mystique. I think the rival should also be much more distinct from Goku, aka not a Saiyan.

[super michael]

House fell apart for other reasons than not finding a balance between old and new characters. DB is Goku's story but it's more than just Goku. There are so many great core relationships that to do a nearly complete turnover is the wrong move. Those are dynamics you can't recreate. What you are talking about isn't moving the story forward, it's keeping the franchise going. That's not the same thing.

Yeah, especially characters like Roshi who've deeply affected Goku's growth. I think if one were to strip the series down then keeping Roshi and Krillin are a must. I would say that Krillin should be getting additional developments too.

I'm also over the Goku and Vegeta dynamic. I like Vegeta, but I'd like a new rival for Goku. I know Goku has a lot of rivals now, but it doesn't feel nearly as contentious as early Goku v Piccolo or Goku v Vegeta from Z. Since the Saiyan rivals are now training together it almost feels like a replacement of Goku v Krillin. I'm just not a fan of the dynamic since I now feel it takes away from Vegeta's mystique. I think the rival should also be much more distinct from Goku, aka not a Saiyan.

If they want old characters to get stronger, then they put in-universe exciting and interesting things, places, etc for them to get stronger. Other anime and cartoon can do it, why can't DBS do it also.

DB/DBZ used to be creative and exciting. In DBS only Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan gets good training.

Don't give lame training and the characters magically gets huge powers, give them unique and creative things for their huge power gain.

The humans/cyborgs/Freeza training was pathetic, they don't deserve their power gains. There was nothing creative or exciting in how they were written.

[Cursed Lemon]

"They're the main character" is hardly a compelling retort when the criticism boils down to "this series is over-reliant on its main character". Like, we know, and that's not the heart of the issue. I understand that some who make this argument also argue for replacing Goku as MC, but de-emphasizing Goku does not require replacing him. There's plenty of precedent in the original run on how to do it.

And again you get that in Super.

Tenshinhan gets his first spotlight episode since his death episode in the Saiyan saga! Gohan gets a character arc that addresses fans criticisms with the character and rectifies it in a way that still feels natural for his character. Bulma gets way more stuff (mostly interacting with Whis and Vegeta) than she had since the Red Ribbon arc. Roshi gets his first spotlight episode since the Piccolo Daimao arc and the series actually touches on his bond with Goku that we haven’t seen also since the Daimao arc. 17 gets brought back and more to do than he ever got in the Cell saga. Future Trunks is close to being the lead in the Zamasu arc. Krillin gets his aforementioned mini arc. 18’s relationship with Krillin is focused way more than it was in Z where it amounted to “oh yeah they’re together and have a kid”


This is why I have a hard time buying fan complaints are anything other than not wanting to understand Goku is the main character and it is not an ensemble show.

The "it's the Goku show" criticism refers to battles.

[MasenkoHA]

"They're the main character" is hardly a compelling retort when the criticism boils down to "this series is over-reliant on its main character". Like, we know, and that's not the heart of the issue. I understand that some who make this argument also argue for replacing Goku as MC, but de-emphasizing Goku does not require replacing him. There's plenty of precedent in the original run on how to do it.

And again you get that in Super.

Tenshinhan gets his first spotlight episode since his death episode in the Saiyan saga! Gohan gets a character arc that addresses fans criticisms with the character and rectifies it in a way that still feels natural for his character. Bulma gets way more stuff (mostly interacting with Whis and Vegeta) than she had since the Red Ribbon arc. Roshi gets his first spotlight episode since the Piccolo Daimao arc and the series actually touches on his bond with Goku that we haven’t seen also since the Daimao arc. 17 gets brought back and more to do than he ever got in the Cell saga. Future Trunks is close to being the lead in the Zamasu arc. Krillin gets his aforementioned mini arc. 18’s relationship with Krillin is focused way more than it was in Z where it amounted to “oh yeah they’re together and have a kid”


This is why I have a hard time buying fan complaints are anything other than not wanting to understand Goku is the main character and it is not an ensemble show.

The "it's the Goku show" criticism refers to battles.

And that’s not really the problem of the series if you all equate fighting to narrative value. Bulma never participates in battles what a completely useless character!!!

[jjgp1112]

"They're the main character" is hardly a compelling retort when the criticism boils down to "this series is over-reliant on its main character". Like, we know, and that's not the heart of the issue. I understand that some who make this argument also argue for replacing Goku as MC, but de-emphasizing Goku does not require replacing him. There's plenty of precedent in the original run on how to do it.

And again you get that in Super.

Tenshinhan gets his first spotlight episode since his death episode in the Saiyan saga! Gohan gets a character arc that addresses fans criticisms with the character and rectifies it in a way that still feels natural for his character. Bulma gets way more stuff (mostly interacting with Whis and Vegeta) than she had since the Red Ribbon arc. Roshi gets his first spotlight episode since the Piccolo Daimao arc and the series actually touches on his bond with Goku that we haven’t seen also since the Daimao arc. 17 gets brought back and more to do than he ever got in the Cell saga. Future Trunks is close to being the lead in the Zamasu arc. Krillin gets his aforementioned mini arc. 18’s relationship with Krillin is focused way more than it was in Z where it amounted to “oh yeah they’re together and have a kid”


This is why I have a hard time buying fan complaints are anything other than not wanting to understand Goku is the main character and it is not an ensemble show.

The "it's the Goku show" criticism refers to battles.

I mean, welcome to Dragon Ball since the Red Ribbon arc.

[Cursed Lemon]

And that’s not really the problem of the series if you all equate fighting to narrative value. Bulma never participates in battles what a completely useless character!!!

Ah yes, I forgot it's impossible to have multiple, separate criticisms of a show. My bad.

[MasenkoHA]

And that’s not really the problem of the series if you all equate fighting to narrative value. Bulma never participates in battles what a completely useless character!!!

Ah yes, I forgot it's impossible to have multiple, separate criticisms of a show. My bad.

It is possible to have multiple separate criticisms.

It’s also possible to have really dumb criticisms. Like “Waaah other characters not strong enough to fight on Goku’s level therefore show bad”

[Cursed Lemon]

It is possible to have multiple separate criticisms.

It’s also possible to have really dumb criticisms. Like “Waaah other characters not strong enough to fight on Goku’s level therefore show bad”

If you think "no one else gets to make a legitimate difference in fights, in a show about fighting, for multiple decades" is not a valid criticism, we have absolutely nothing to discuss.

[MasenkoHA]

It is possible to have multiple separate criticisms.

It’s also possible to have really dumb criticisms. Like “Waaah other characters not strong enough to fight on Goku’s level therefore show bad”

If you think "no one else gets to make a legitimate difference in fights, in a show about fighting, for multiple decades" is not a valid criticism, we have absolutely nothing to discuss.

Which goes back to “Goku is the main character its his story so yes there’s no reason for other characters to be the ones to ultimately defeat the big bad” so yes “waah Kuririn didn’t Kienzan Golden Freeza and send him back to hell in Resurrection F”’ is actually not a valid criticism. It’s just you not liking the series having a singular protagonist instead of being an ensemble. But even ignoring all that

Beerus arc- Goku needs the power of other Saiyans and Videl ends up being a key part of the ritual. Also Super Saiyan God doesn’t end the battle because Beerus is much stronger

Champa arc- Hit throws the fight to Madoka out of respect for Goku

Zamasu arc- Trunks destroys Zamasu’s corpeal body. Goku gets Zenos to wipe out this timeline


Tournament of Power- It’s a battle royal. Everyone plays a part and get some ring outs. Goku, 17, and Freeza end up teaming against Jiren and 17 wins by default and saves the other universes.


So even ignoring that Goku being the main character means the series is not obligated to have other characters save the day it still does let other characters contribute in meaningful ways. So your argument is still just really really bad?

[Skar]

They should have just dropped those characters for Super. GT wisely let go of the Earthling fighters in order to move forward. Super could have just focused on Goku and Vegeta and forgotten the rest. Yeah maybe keep Gohan around.

They have been basically dropped since the Cell saga since most of the non-Saiyan cast retired by then. They came out of retirement for the ToP because each universe needed ten participants. Gohan and #17 were the only returning characters I remember that went up against any heavy hitters from other universes while the humans stayed in their lane and fought the much weaker participants. In the Moro arc, he freed the prisoners which might've only happened to give the other Z fighters a chance to fight.

I think this more like a last hurray for those characters and their fans than trying to permanently bring them back into the story. In the arcs where there aren't any henchmen, most of the side characters don't show up at all or only appear in the background. Tien, 18, and Piccolo attempted to fight Beerus in BoG but only lasted a second. Side characters only fought Freeza's henchmen in RoF and the strongest among them, Gohan, was KOed by Freeza in one hit.

[Cursed Lemon]

Which goes back to “Goku is the main character its his story so yes there’s no reason for other characters to be the ones to ultimately defeat the big bad” so yes “waah Kuririn didn’t Kienzan Golden Freeza and send him back to hell in Resurrection F”’ is actually not a valid criticism. It’s just you not liking the series having a singular protagonist instead of being an ensemble.

Yes, just as you pointed out, this is the Goku show, and no, as we've said multiple times, we don't like that. Someone mentioned One Punch Man earlier so let's compare/contrast.

Is Saitama, the main character and primary focus, by far the strongest character in the show, to the point that other characters have absolutely no chance at reaching his level? Yes, absolutely. In that sense he's a lot like Goku, save for the presence of Vegeta.

However, unlike Dragon Ball, One Punch Man dedicates a wealth of resources to giving supporting characters interesting, protracted, well-choreographed fights with good production. Let me say that again - fights. Not training sessions, not cheerleading on the sidelines, not only appearing to a significant capacity in slice-of-life filler episodes. The supporting characters are fighters and so they get to fight, and when I say "fight" I don't mean helplessly standing in the way of a villain that only Saitama can beat.

It would be different if every character in Dragon Ball was a version of Bulma, a non-fighter who contributed in other ways. But they're not. It's a huge cast of fighters and they never get to fight, and even on the rare occasion that they do, they exist solely to highlight how strong the big bad is before Goku comes in and saves the day. It's not interesting, it's not suspenseful, it's not fun.

With that in mind, here's the simple list of things we want to see:

1. Other fighter characters involved

2. Those characters get to actually fight

3. Those fights are interesting and have consequence

4. Those fights make logical sense

So when you throw things at me like:

Beerus arc- Goku needs the power of other Saiyans and Videl ends up being a key part of the ritual.

Zamasu arc- Trunks destroys Zamasu’s corpeal body.

Tournament of Power- It’s a battle royal. Everyone plays a part and get some ring outs. Goku, 17, and Freeza end up teaming against Jiren and 17 wins by default and saves the other universes.

In which the fighters raise their hands in the air and literally nothing else, a super saiyan 2-at-best character fights a super-saiyan-blue-fusion-tier opponent and then accidentally discovers how to create a spirit bomb and channel it into a lightsaber, or their screen time is primarily exposition-driven and none of them get even so much as a 5-second segment above 10FPS or a single kick as awesome as this one, do you really think we're going to be satisfied?

[MasenkoHA]

With that in mind, here's the simple list of things we want to see:

1. Other fighter characters involved

They are

2. Those characters get to actually fight

They do

3. Those fights are interesting and have consequence

“These fights are interesting” is so subjective I can’t really argue for or against it. You’re not wrong if you don’t find the fights in Dragon Ball interesting. I’m curious why you’re on a Dragon Ball forum but again you’re not wrong to find the fights uninteresting.


Also for consequences. What the hell does that even mean? You continue to ignore that these characters do contribute to the tournament of power. Just because 18 doesn’t knock out Jiren in One Punch Man doesn’t make her contribution to defeating Ribrianne any less important to their goal of being the last standing universe. Just because Gohan didn’t turn into Mystic Sacred Daddy God Ultra Super Saiyan Swagger Gohan and fart the competition out doesn’t make his coming back as a fighter from his retirement any less meaningful for the character (assuming Super Heroes goes somewhere with it and doesn’t reset him back to square one)

4. Those fights make logical sense

By this I’m going to assume you mean the power scaling thing. Which has always been whatever. It’s just one of those silly things . You either accept it or you don’t. And that’s fine if the power scaling bothers you(but again why bother with Dragon Ball when it’s always been like that?!?) but don’t complain in the same breath that Roshi and Krillin shouldn’t be in the ToP but also get mad that Goku has a lot more to do as a fighter than those two. You can’t have it both ways.

Beerus arc- Goku needs the power of other Saiyans and Videl ends up being a key part of the ritual.

Zamasu arc- Trunks destroys Zamasu’s corpeal body.

], do you really think we're going to be satisfied?

No because the problems go back to

1. Not accepting that Goku is the main character

2. Getting upset that Dragon Ball is and always has been a silly chop socky martial arts kids show made so Toriyama can buy cigarettes and he doesn’t have charts and graphs explaining how strong each character to be and how to “logically” get them to the next level

3. Ignoring that characters can contribute more to a show than just fighting the big bad. Even “fighters” can have purpose related to their CHARACTER and not their status as your favorite character to play in Dragon Ball Tenkaichi Butoden Fighter Z for PS5


The first 2 is just not accepting what Dragon Ball is, which again, totally fine there are a lot of shows better than Dragon Ball (not the kind of stuff that gets brought up in this forum a lot by hey) and the last is just straight up bad media criticism.

[Cursed Lemon]

So you're just gonna completely ignore the comparison that I made to Saitama/OPM which addresses everything you just said? While Saitama v. the big bad Boros was going on, you had several of the supporting heroes fighting against Melzargard, a villain of their relative level and one that required problem-solving to defeat, while protecting the surface from being annihilated by the ship's artillery fire. Behold - utilization, logic, intrigue, consequence. Name one fight in the last 20 years of Dragon Ball that managed to do all that.

Did the fight between the supporting cast and the saibamen/Nappa suddenly not make Dragon Ball the Goku show? Because that was a fantastic use of the rest of the characters and something that hasn't been recreated since.

And it's not like we can't be satisfied, either. Vegeta vs. Broly is probably the best pure fight in DB history, hell it's better than the Goku vs. Broly fight immediately after. They took a well-liked character who wasn't Goku and respected him, let him get on with some swagger, even when he LOST the fight. That's what people want to see and it did nothing to detract from GoKu aS tHe MaIn ChArAcTer.

[MasenkoHA]

So you're just gonna completely ignore the comparison that I made to Saitama/OPM which addresses everything you just said? While Saitama v. the big bad Boros was going on, you had several of the supporting heroes fighting against Melzargard, a villain of their relative level and one that required problem-solving to defeat, while protecting the surface from being annihilated by the ship's artillery fire. Behold - utilization, logic, intrigue, consequence. Name one fight in the last 20 years of Dragon Ball that managed to do all that.

Mostly because I don’t care about OPM nor is it relevant. I’m glad you like OPM. Enjoy


It’s also tiresome running in circles with you.

I shouldn’t have to explain why Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu and Piccolo dying in the Saiyan arc still matters to the story

I shouldn’t have to explain why Tenshinhan temporarily stopping Cell so 18 can escape is still contributing

And again the Tournament of Power thing.

And it's not like we can't be satisfied, either. Vegeta vs. Broly is probably the best pure fight in DB history, hell it's better than the Goku vs. Broly fight immediately after. They took a well-liked character who wasn't Goku and respected him, let him get on with some swagger, even when he LOST the fight. That's what people want to see and it did nothing to detract from GoKu aS tHe MaIn ChArAcTer.

It also had a movie budget and assets.


It kind of sounds like your actual issue with Dragon Ball Super is the cheap animation and fight choreography not being impressive to you. Totally valid! The low budget of Super has always been a source of ridicule. I also have absolutely no clue what the fuck is has to do with this particular thread.

[Cursed Lemon]

I shouldn’t have to explain why Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chaozu and Piccolo dying in the Saiyan arc still matters to the story

I shouldn’t have to explain why Tenshinhan temporarily stopping Cell so 18 can escape is still contributing

Those events occurred in Biblical times.

It kind of sounds like your actual issue with Dragon Ball Super is the cheap animation and fight choreography not being impressive to you. Totally valid! The low budget of Super has always been a source of ridicule. I also have absolutely no clue what the fuck is has to do with this particular thread.

You seriously tried to say that Gohan/Trunks/Videl/etc. holding hands together for 30 seconds to do the stupid SS god ritual should satisfy anyone who wanted to see those characters involved, and you don't get where I'm coming from? lol

[MasenkoHA]

You seriously tried to say that Gohan/Trunks/Videl/etc. holding hands together for 30 seconds to do the stupid SS god ritual should satisfy anyone who wanted to see those characters involved, and you don't get where I'm coming from? lol

Yes because that’s exactly what I said. That is the only thing those characters ever did in Super. Literally nothing else in the entire series.


I fucking can’t with you. Why even bother.