Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[Cursed Lemon]

Yes because that’s exactly what I said. That is the only thing those characters ever did in Super. Literally nothing else in the entire series.

I fucking can’t with you. Why even bother.

This is your post.

Beerus arc- Goku needs the power of other Saiyans and Videl ends up being a key part of the ritual.

So even ignoring that Goku being the main character means the series is not obligated to have other characters save the day it still does let other characters contribute in meaningful ways.

This is, presumably, how you would respond to someone who says, "I wish Gohan had a real role in the show after disappointingly getting his ass kicked in the Buu arc, besides getting made 'captain' of Universe 7 who nobody actually listens to".

You are essentially saying "this is what you get, it's good enough, stop complaining". Well it's not.

[MetaMoss]

You seriously tried to say that Gohan/Trunks/Videl/etc. holding hands together for 30 seconds to do the stupid SS god ritual should satisfy anyone who wanted to see those characters involved, and you don't get where I'm coming from? lol

Yes because that’s exactly what I said. That is the only thing those characters ever did in Super. Literally nothing else in the entire series.


I fucking can’t with you. Why even bother.

I think Cursed is making some really solid points in this last page, so I'm disappointed to see you dismiss them so offhandedly. You both could tone down the snark, I'd say, but I will say no more on that.

For each of the sidelined fighters, from Yamcha and Kuririn to Videl and Goten, their narrative relevance was established around their ability to participate in fights. While that's not to say that said narrative relevance can't be shifted to somewhere else, I think it's plain to see that not everybody is satisfied with how those transitions were handled. This is why I like the direction the ToP was taking the sideliners, because they got to fight again, even if for a little while.

[MasenkoHA]

This is, presumably, how you would respond to someone who says, "I wish Gohan had a real role in the show after disappointingly getting his ass kicked in the Buu arc, besides getting made 'captain' of Universe 7 who nobody actually listens to".

You are essentially saying "this is what you get, it's good enough, stop complaining". Well it's not.

No, I was listing things the characters did to contribute to the “big fights” since you’re so hyper focused on the fighting as if the series is nothing but fight scenes.


Gohan actually had a character arc in Super. The series went out of its way to give Gohan a reason to come back as a fighter after he retired for academics, it even had Piccolo retrain him and point out his short comings. Not to mention his Great Saiyaman mini-arc or the episode with Future Trunks that was essentially 20 minutes of Trunks being the avatar for the fan not satisfied with Gohan’s character direction after the Cell Games. Saying helping with the Super Saiyan God ritual and acting as a figurehead team captain is all he did is not only disingenuous but really fucking dumb.

Seriously if you’re not going to make arguments in good faith just don’t bother.

[VegettoEX]

Consider the following:

- Not immediately responding

- Bringing down the antagonism toward each other by about 90%

Please and thank you and this isn't actually a suggestion!

[Cursed Lemon]

No, I was listing things the characters did to contribute to the “big fights” since you’re so hyper focused on the fighting as if the series is nothing but fight scenes.


Gohan actually had a character arc in Super. The series went out of its way to give Gohan a reason to come back as a fighter after he retired for academics, it even had Piccolo retrain him and point out his short comings. Not to mention his Great Saiyaman mini-arc or the episode with Future Trunks that was essentially 20 minutes of Trunks being the avatar for the fan not satisfied with Gohan’s character direction after the Cell Games. Saying helping with the Super Saiyan God ritual and acting as a figurehead team captain is all did is not only disingenuous but really fucking dumb.

Seriously if you’re not going to make arguments in good faith just don’t bother.

I'd like a show of hands here in the DB fandom of who among us specifically wanted to see either of:

1. Gohan starring in a filler episode and fighting some bank robbers

2. Trunks coming to the conclusion that Gohan's character arc leading to him settling down and becoming useless was actually GREAT

The Great Saiyaman shtick used to be entertaining because it was spliced in between moments of Gohan kicking ass. No one is willing to subsist solely on the former with none of the latter. It's compounded further because while everyone else got insane powerups for doing next to nothing prior to the Tournament of Power, he just barely got back to where he already was almost thirty years ago our time. He also has zero confidence in his presentation; when kid Gohan was picking Cell apart at his leisure, when Gohan told Super Buu "fight you, no, I want to kill you", every DB fan was bouncing up and down on their couch. We don't get that anymore.

Once again, you keep repeating that these scenes are good enough and we should be satisfied with them. Once again I say, a lot of people aren't.

[JulieYBM]

Raising my hand.

I don't need to see Gohan having big fights.

[BWri]

"They're the main character" is hardly a compelling retort when the criticism boils down to "this series is over-reliant on its main character". Like, we know, and that's not the heart of the issue. I understand that some who make this argument also argue for replacing Goku as MC, but de-emphasizing Goku does not require replacing him. There's plenty of precedent in the original run on how to do it.

And again you get that in Super.

Tenshinhan gets his first spotlight episode since his death episode in the Saiyan saga! Gohan gets a character arc that addresses fans criticisms with the character and rectifies it in a way that still feels natural for his character. Bulma gets way more stuff (mostly interacting with Whis and Vegeta) than she had since the Red Ribbon arc. Roshi gets his first spotlight episode since the Piccolo Daimao arc and the series actually touches on his bond with Goku that we haven’t seen also since the Daimao arc. 17 gets brought back and more to do than he ever got in the Cell saga. Future Trunks is close to being the lead in the Zamasu arc. Krillin gets his aforementioned mini arc. 18’s relationship with Krillin is focused way more than it was in Z where it amounted to “oh yeah they’re together and have a kid”


This is why I have a hard time buying fan complaints are anything other than not wanting to understand Goku is the main character and it is not an ensemble show.

The "it's the Goku show" criticism refers to battles.

When it comes to the manga, the Goku and Vegeta show criticism also involves the plot and subplots since the others are featured very little. Also, Tien's episode in the anime was actually a Roshi/Goku episode. Learning about Tien and his dojo and getting to see it first-hand was nice but he wasn't really the focus which was an odd choice because every other character was the focus of their recruitment episode and given great moments. But at least it was something.

Other than that, Super did well (for late DB standards) with its sub characters during the lead up to the ToP and even during the ToP itself. I enjoyed both far more than the manga of the same arc. The manga then followed suit with the Moro arc which gave the entire "team" decent fights and character moments. I've greatly enjoyed the anime's additional focus on the characters, though I know more interesting scenarios can still be crafted. I loved Krillin's anime arc for instance and felt that it could have been built even further if Toriyama-san was in on it.

Bulma and Roshi have probably gotten the best treatment out of everyone when it comes to the DB revival era, as in they've only added more great moments to their character legacies and in Bulma's case, added much more to the character herself. I love that.

[Cursed Lemon]

Raising my hand.

I don't need to see Gohan having big fights.

Are you sure

Are you sure you don't want to see that sly grin

Those sinewy lines of muscle

That confident alpha strut

That sweat-dripping exertion

Are you sure, Julie

[VegettoEX]

Dragon Ball's original serialization was interesting because Toriyama wasn't afraid to just fucking ditch characters. Lunch? Upa? Sno? Gone. Yamcha? Chaiotzu? Sidelines. Tenshinhan? Weirdly got the Cell and Boo moments. Kinda in-character I guess. I dunno. Conflicted on that.

And that's why I thought bringing Gohan to the expected conclusion and then Toriyama being like "whoooooooooa-ho-ho wait actually nevermind" was... amazing? And then he freaks out and second-guesses himself and brings him back as Ultimate. And... I actually don't care that much for his Ultimate self the Boo fight.

And that's why I couldn't get behind Super constantly being Gohan yes! Gohan no! Fights yes! Fights no! Confident yes! Confident no! Stella got her groove back! And do did Gohan!

The ice cream scene is my favorite. It's the most memorable to me. It's the Gohan I wanted to see. It literally is the Gohan we see in chapters 518 and 519. That's where I want Gohan to go, because that's where he literally does go.

So I guess I'm raising my hand, too? I think Toriyama should have stuck to his guns, and I wish the Toei staff... well, we're getting into that larger discussion about how Super can't move beyond rehashing all of the plot points and actual panel-for-panel-sometimes highlights of the original...

I want commitment, and this modern series' storytelling ain't it.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Raising my hand.

I don't need to see Gohan having big fights.

Are you sure

Are you sure you don't want to see that sly grin

Those sinewy lines of muscle

That confident alpha strut

That sweat-dripping exertion

Are you sure, Julie

I love you Cursed Lemon. LOL.

[PurestEvil]

I find it dreadfully coincidental how this discussion has gone into a tangent about the flaws of Gohan's battle participation in Super when there is a new film literally starring Gohan as a major fighting character coming out in a few months.

[Cursed Lemon]

Dragon Ball's original serialization was interesting because Toriyama wasn't afraid to just fucking ditch characters. Lunch? Upa? Sno? Gone. Yamcha? Chaiotzu? Sidelines. Tenshinhan? Weirdly got the Cell and Boo moments. Kinda in-character I guess. I dunno. Conflicted on that.

And that's why I thought bringing Gohan to the expected conclusion and then Toriyama being like "whoooooooooa-ho-ho wait actually nevermind" was... amazing? And then he freaks out and second-guesses himself and brings him back as Ultimate. And... I actually don't care that much for his Ultimate self the Boo fight.

And that's why I couldn't get behind Super constantly being Gohan yes! Gohan no! Fights yes! Fights no! Confident yes! Confident no! Stella got her groove back! And do did Gohan!

The ice cream scene is my favorite. It's the most memorable to me. It's the Gohan I wanted to see. It literally is the Gohan we see in chapters 518 and 519. That's where I want Gohan to go, because that's where he literally does go.

So I guess I'm raising my hand, too? I think Toriyama should have stuck to his guns, and I wish the Toei staff... well, we're getting into that larger discussion about how Super can't move beyond rehashing all of the plot points and actual panel-for-panel-sometimes highlights of the original...

I don't disagree with anything said here. Gohan has two arguably conflicting traits as a character; 1) quiet by nature and doesn't like conflict, 2) one of the most prodigiously powerful characters on the show, speculatively with the highest ceiling of them all. Logically, that leaves him to follow one of two narratives, the one being what Trunks realized in that a quiet family life is actually what all this fighting is supposed to be about, the other being about using what you love to fuel your power to fight and protect. So as mentioned, for him to exist in this unsatisfying third-string middle ground does a disservice to either manifestation and, with context to the current discussion, doesn't do a thing for anyone who is a fan of Gohan the character, which is endemic of the general mishandling or downright neglect of a lot of the supporting cast since the Cell saga ended.

"It's not an ensemble cast", and yet there the ensemble is, involved but in a pitiful capacity.

EDIT: I will say this, Yamcha's utilization in the baseball game is a positive example of checking a character out but revisiting them.

I find it dreadfully coincidental how this discussion has gone into a tangent about the flaws of Gohan's battle participation in Super when there is a new film literally starring Gohan as a major fighting character coming out in a few months.

Keeping an eye out for that one.

[MetaMoss]

And that's why I couldn't get behind Super constantly being Gohan yes! Gohan no! Fights yes! Fights no! Confident yes! Confident no! Stella got her groove back! And do did Gohan!

The ice cream scene is my favorite. It's the most memorable to me. It's the Gohan I wanted to see. It literally is the Gohan we see in chapters 518 and 519. That's where I want Gohan to go, because that's where he literally does go.

So I guess I'm raising my hand, too? I think Toriyama should have stuck to his guns, and I wish the Toei staff... well, we're getting into that larger discussion about how Super can't move beyond rehashing all of the plot points and actual panel-for-panel-sometimes highlights of the original...

I want commitment, and this modern series' storytelling ain't it.

So for me, now that I'm remembering this shit, this is the big example where bringing a fighter back to fighting was the absolutely wrong call. We've got Gohan, the character with the best (and dare I say, the only good) transition away from fighting, and they decide to go back on it, because now wasn't he just so cool when he fought Cell and Boo?

I'm drawing on my memories from watching Super 3+ years ago to contribute to this thread, and as I'm remembering more and more, I'm also remembering why I'm in no hurry to revisit it.

[ABED]

Even in a fighting series, How strong the fighters are isn't the only source of value to the story.

[JulieYBM]

Raising my hand.

I don't need to see Gohan having big fights.

Are you sure

Are you sure you don't want to see that sly grin

Those sinewy lines of muscle

That confident alpha strut

That sweat-dripping exertion

Are you sure, Julie

I can get that from comedy and slice-of-life episodes.

I dunno. Ask me again when someone who is not Toriyama or trying to follow his rules writes a Gohan battle story.

But boy, I can't wait to see Broli in all his impregnating glory again.

[Nagyzöld]

Consider the following:

- Not immediately responding

- Bringing down the antagonism toward each other by about 90%

Please and thank you and this isn't actually a suggestion!

There's a huge difference between how Cursed Lemon respectfully responds versus MasenkoHa who just...responds but whatever

[ABED]

for him to exist in this unsatisfying third-string middle ground does a disservice to either manifestation and, with context to the current discussion, doesn't do a thing for anyone who is a fan of Gohan the character, which is endemic of the general mishandling or downright neglect of a lot of the supporting cast since the Cell saga ended.

What's this supposed middle ground? Gohan's now in a place where he'll fight if he has to and uses his book smarts in combination with his innate talent. The fans of Gohan who complain do so simply because they want him to be the strongest. It's not about character.

[MasenkoHA]

Even in a fighting series, How strong the fighters are isn't the only source of value to the story.

Thank you. This x1000. This has been what I’ve been trying to say.

[MetaMoss]

Even in a fighting series, How strong the fighters are isn't the only source of value to the story.

Thank you. This x1000. This has been what I’ve been trying to say.

And what others are trying to say is that this series really doesn't give much narrative value at all to non-fighters.

[MasenkoHA]

And that's why I thought bringing Gohan to the expected conclusion and then Toriyama being like "whoooooooooa-ho-ho wait actually nevermind" was... amazing? And then he freaks out and second-guesses himself and brings him back as Ultimate. And... I actually don't care that much for his Ultimate self the Boo fight.

So the thing with Gohan is, completely disregarding anything to happen in Super, Toriyama has always played fair with that character. He was introduced as Goku’s son who has no real interest in fighting and wanted to be a scholar and he ends the story as a scholar. I can understand fans not liking that Gohan didn’t become the strongest character in the whole universe. But Toriyama never pulled a fast one on them. This isn’t like Tenshinhan where he was introduced as Goku’s equal and then sidelined after his atonement arc in the Daimao saga. Or Piccolo Jr who was handpicked by Goku to be his archenemy and then got dumped for Vegeta in the very next arc and Piccolo ended up being the babysitter for the Saiyan Little League.

And that's why I couldn't get behind Super constantly being Gohan yes! Gohan no! Fights yes! Fights no! Confident yes! Confident no! Stella got her groove back! And do did Gohan!

The ice cream scene is my favorite. It's the most memorable to me. It's the Gohan I wanted to see. It literally is the Gohan we see in chapters 518 and 519. That's where I want Gohan to go, because that's where he literally does go.

So I guess I'm raising my hand, too? I think Toriyama should have stuck to his guns, and I wish the Toei staff... well, we're getting into that larger discussion about how Super can't move beyond rehashing all of the plot points and actual panel-for-panel-sometimes highlights of the original...

I want commitment, and this modern series' storytelling ain't it.

Super is it’s really into its fan service. Gohan didn’t need to become a fighter again but fans were really mad he became a suburban dad dork so Toei/Shueisha/Toyotaro makes him get back into fighting in a way that feels genuine for that character. I.E wanting to help people he cares about.


I also don’t especially care that Toriyama sidelines characters he no longer has use for but stuff like Roshi and Tenshinhan and Kuririn being in the Tournament of Power is undeniably in response to complaints of those characters getting shoved to the background in the original manga/

And what others are trying to say is that this series really doesn't give much narrative value at all to non-fighters.

What constitutes narrative value? Minor and supporting characters exist for a reason. There’s nothing wrong with Kuririn just being Goku’s childhood best friend and first training partner who settled down to get married after Goku surpassed him a long time ago. That doesn’t make Kuririn useless. It makes the story feel richer that Goku has a social circle that isn’t just guys fighting at his level to take care of the current threat.