Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[KentMan]

Goku and Vegeta have both trained extensively since the Moro arc. And Vegeta was stated to have gotten more powerful during his fight with Granolah, which he started off as being dominated and ended as being very competitive.

And he ended up losing to Granolah because UE made him dumber. I didn’t take what Vegeta says seriously about growing stronger with UE. Other wise Beerus would be on Whis level already.

[picc]

My power rankings at the moment, re: strongest in the universe

Gas
Granolah
UE Vegeta
MUI Goku
SSBE Vegeta
UI Omen Goku/SSJ Broly
SSJB Goku (UI) (Kaioken)
SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta

Any stand out issues?

Yeah Uchida doesn’t agree with you on Broly jokes aside. Toyotaro has as of yet never said who was stronger between UI Goku or UE Vegeta. It doesn’t make sense that blue Goku with UI can hold his own against FP Granolah.

I dont know how strong Broly is, its an educated guess.

I'm assuming UE Vegeta is stronger than MUI Goku, because he was stronger -- albeit briefly -- than a being (Granolah) who was wished into being stronger than MUI Goku.

Blue Goku fought a beat down, exhausted Granolah. Remember when the Cell Jr. was kicking the crap out of MSSJ Goku? Didn't mean it was stronger.

[picc]

Goku and Vegeta have both trained extensively since the Moro arc. And Vegeta was stated to have gotten more powerful during his fight with Granolah, which he started off as being dominated and ended as being very competitive.

And he ended up losing to Granolah because UE made him dumber. I didn’t take what Vegeta says seriously about growing stronger with UE. Other wise Beerus would be on Whis level already.

It was stated on the page that he got stronger by taking damage. And it would have made no sense for him to deliberately take that damage if he was not in fact gaining something from it.

In fact, it was the open gaping wound he suffered in SSBE that did him in. If not for that, none of the damage he took in UE was enough to debilitate him.

And Beerus being a GoD is also what AT used to soft retcon his lower power levels from before.

[KentMan]

I dont know how strong Broly is, its an educated guess.

I'm assuming UE Vegeta is stronger than MUI Goku, because he was stronger -- albeit briefly -- than a being (Granolah) who was wished into being stronger than MUI Goku.

Blue Goku fought a beat down, exhausted Granolah. Remember when the Cell Jr. was kicking the crap out of MSSJ Goku? Didn't mean it was stronger.

MUI Goku lost because his accuracy went down as stated by Granolah. Meaning the fight would have been different as shown with Blue Goku and Granolah. UE Vegeta being stronger than UI Goku is speculation that is more likely not true. But who knows as for FP Granolah being exhausted that was only shown after he kicked Goku back to base. He never showed exhaustion yet and even when he was he still beat UE Vegeta.

[KentMan]

It was stated on the page that he got stronger by taking damage. And it would have made no sense for him to deliberately take that damage if he was not in fact gaining something from it.

In fact, it was the open gaping wound he suffered in SSBE that did him in. If not for that, none of the damage he took in UE was enough to debilitate him.

And Beerus being a GoD is also what AT used to soft retcon his lower power levels from before.

He says he’s getting stronger doesn’t mean it might be true. I always thought that his strength depends on his lust for destruction rather than just damage itself. Because when he gets hurt it just revs him up but it also takes a toll on him.

What does this have to do with Beerus not being on Whis level?

[picc]

It was stated on the page that he got stronger by taking damage. And it would have made no sense for him to deliberately take that damage if he was not in fact gaining something from it.

In fact, it was the open gaping wound he suffered in SSBE that did him in. If not for that, none of the damage he took in UE was enough to debilitate him.

And Beerus being a GoD is also what AT used to soft retcon his lower power levels from before.

He says he’s getting stronger doesn’t mean it might be true. I always thought that his strength depends on his lust for destruction rather than just damage itself. Because when he gets hurt it just revs him up but it also takes a toll on him.

Then why are we arguing anything at all? Theoretically, your username could actually be DingoRockSlide and you just uploaded code to make it appear as KentMan. Theoretically, my phone could be a duckbilled platypus.

Or, we could just go with what we're shown?

What does this have to do with Beerus not being on Whis level?

I have no idea why it would.

[KentMan]

It was stated on the page that he got stronger by taking damage. And it would have made no sense for him to deliberately take that damage if he was not in fact gaining something from it.

In fact, it was the open gaping wound he suffered in SSBE that did him in. If not for that, none of the damage he took in UE was enough to debilitate him.

And Beerus being a GoD is also what AT used to soft retcon his lower power levels from before.

He says he’s getting stronger doesn’t mean it might be true. I always thought that his strength depends on his lust for destruction rather than just damage itself. Because when he gets hurt it just revs him up but it also takes a toll on him.

Then why are we arguing anything at all? Theoretically, your username could actually be DingoRockSlide and you just uploaded code to make it appear as KentMan. Theoretically, my phone could be a duckbilled platypus.

Or, we could just go with what we're shown?

What does this have to do with Beerus not being on Whis level?

I have no idea why it would.

I’m asking how does UE strengthen Beerus when he’s still weaker than Whis?

[Hugo Boss]

I’m asking how does UE strengthen Beerus when he’s still weaker than Whis?

We have no idea. Beerus might start weaker and eventually turn the tables. That, of course, depends on how Toyotaro would want to write it.

Re: Jiren. He went full power against Goku and even beyond. That’s why he was exhausted after their fight. How do you think that Jiren would fare against Goku or Vegeta the way they are now?

[TheFallenProfit]

He says he’s getting stronger doesn’t mean it might be true. I always thought that his strength depends on his lust for destruction rather than just damage itself. Because when he gets hurt it just revs him up but it also takes a toll on him.

Then why are we arguing anything at all? Theoretically, your username could actually be DingoRockSlide and you just uploaded code to make it appear as KentMan. Theoretically, my phone could be a duckbilled platypus.

Or, we could just go with what we're shown?

What does this have to do with Beerus not being on Whis level?

I have no idea why it would.

I’m asking how does UE strengthen Beerus when he’s still weaker than Whis?

Your question assumes that surpassing Whis is something that can easily be done by just growing stronger.

Obviously Whis's level of power is something that can be achieved as he himself confirmed that Goku could reach his level and even the Grand Priests level if he kept training but it's not easy and would take near impossible amounts of gains to get there.

So Beerus not surpassing Whis doesn't mean he can't grow stronger with Ultra Ego.

[Thani]

I’m asking how does UE strengthen Beerus when he’s still weaker than Whis?

We have no idea. Beerus might start weaker and eventually turn the tables. That, of course, depends on how Toyotaro would want to write it.

Re: Jiren. He went full power against Goku and even beyond. That’s why he was exhausted after their fight. How do you think that Jiren would fare against Goku or Vegeta the way they are now?

Ideally, I'd say Jiren really only had problems with Goku because Ultra Instinct was that good in combat. Normally I'd argue that now that Goku improved in UI he should defeat Jiren easier... but Toyo nerfed it badly by having it falter really quickly. So who knows anymore, huh?

As for UE, it's a more traditional state of fighting, so it depends on raw power.

At the end of the day, Jiren managed to actually keep up with Goku in the ToP when he went beyond his limits. It took a lot out of him, but nothing says he can't do it again, right?

So ideally I'd have them being generally on the same threat level (Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Moro), just changing the way they fight. Obviously that's not the case in canon. :/

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think you can compare Goku’s silver form with the way it was when he used it against Jiren. Merus even acknowledged that Goku’s completed ultra instinct would be more stable because he got stronger. Jiren took advantage of this lack of stability and barely managed to keep up.

I think right now it’s pretty unlikely that Jiren can manage the same thing, if he doesn’t continue to grow stronger. Goku’s ultra instinct has evolved to a point that even when he is not dodging his body strengths his defenses at an unbelievable rate. Moro was commonly seen taking a lot of heavy attacks from Goku and Vegeta like nothing and when he got even stronger after absorbing OG73-i his wrist was broken by Goku’s abdomen. That’s a huge step forward to not notice.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

An interesting way I see things is that the completed Ultra Instinct of the anime is essentially the extended level of mastery seen in the manga during the Moro and Granolah arcs given its performance against Jiren, if not still superior given how wide the gap is despite Jiren being shown to be stronger comparatively in the anime.

[picc]

I’m asking how does UE strengthen Beerus when he’s still weaker than Whis?

The question doesn't make sense though. Might as well ask how do zenkais and transformations strengthen saiyans when they're still weaker than Beerus.

[KentMan]

We have no idea. Beerus might start weaker and eventually turn the tables. That, of course, depends on how Toyotaro would want to write it.

Re: Jiren. He went full power against Goku and even beyond. That’s why he was exhausted after their fight. How do you think that Jiren would fare against Goku or Vegeta the way they are now?

No idea? So you have no clue as to how UE works and now you don’t know why Beerus is weaker than Whis. Than you assume he will be Whis level or greater that’s wishful thinking.

Jiren vs Goku in the manga is kinda like Cell vs Goku. We know that Cell was still holding back and even than it’s possible to tire out a stronger opponent. As to how Goku and Vegeta will fair against Jiren now is unknown.

[KentMan]

Your question assumes that surpassing Whis is something that can easily be done by just growing stronger.

Obviously Whis's level of power is something that can be achieved as he himself confirmed that Goku could reach his level and even the Grand Priests level if he kept training but it's not easy and would take near impossible amounts of gains to get there.

So Beerus not surpassing Whis doesn't mean he can't grow stronger with Ultra Ego.

That makes no sense and you didn’t answer why Beerus is weaker than Whis. Or why Broly is compared to Beerus possibly being stronger than him thanks to Uchida. Beerus has lived very long it would be ridiculous to say it’s because he’s lazy.

[KentMan]

I’m asking how does UE strengthen Beerus when he’s still weaker than Whis?

We have no idea. Beerus might start weaker and eventually turn the tables. That, of course, depends on how Toyotaro would want to write it.

Re: Jiren. He went full power against Goku and even beyond. That’s why he was exhausted after their fight. How do you think that Jiren would fare against Goku or Vegeta the way they are now?

Ideally, I'd say Jiren really only had problems with Goku because Ultra Instinct was that good in combat. Normally I'd argue that now that Goku improved in UI he should defeat Jiren easier... but Toyo nerfed it badly by having it falter really quickly. So who knows anymore, huh?

As for UE, it's a more traditional state of fighting, so it depends on raw power.

At the end of the day, Jiren managed to actually keep up with Goku in the ToP when he went beyond his limits. It took a lot out of him, but nothing says he can't do it again, right?

So ideally I'd have them being generally on the same threat level (Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Moro), just changing the way they fight. Obviously that's not the case in canon. :/

Canon didn’t change anything Broly is still compared to Beerus thanks to Uchida. Jiren is put in the same league along with Broly in Gokus bio.

[Hugo Boss]

We have no idea. Beerus might start weaker and eventually turn the tables. That, of course, depends on how Toyotaro would want to write it.

Re: Jiren. He went full power against Goku and even beyond. That’s why he was exhausted after their fight. How do you think that Jiren would fare against Goku or Vegeta the way they are now?

No idea? So you have no clue as to how UE works and now you don’t know why Beerus is weaker than Whis. Than you assume he will be Whis level or greater that’s wishful thinking.

Jiren vs Goku in the manga is kinda like Cell vs Goku. We know that Cell was still holding back and even than it’s possible to tire out a stronger opponent. As to how Goku and Vegeta will fair against Jiren now is unknown.

That’s not what I said. I said we have no idea if UE would be enough for Beerus to be on Whis’ level or above. That obviously doesn’t mean Beerus can’t get stronger, even if he doesn’t reach Whis’ level. And of course we know how UE works by Vegeta’s explanation.

That fight is nothing like Cell vs. Goku. Cell was holding back, Jiren wasn’t. Jiren actually was breaking his own limits to keep up with Goku.

[TheFallenProfit]

Your question assumes that surpassing Whis is something that can easily be done by just growing stronger.

Obviously Whis's level of power is something that can be achieved as he himself confirmed that Goku could reach his level and even the Grand Priests level if he kept training but it's not easy and would take near impossible amounts of gains to get there.

So Beerus not surpassing Whis doesn't mean he can't grow stronger with Ultra Ego.

That makes no sense and you didn’t answer why Beerus is weaker than Whis. Or why Broly is compared to Beerus possibly being stronger than him thanks to Uchida. Beerus has lived very long it would be ridiculous to say it’s because he’s lazy.

It makes perfect sense and is represented in the narrative. I did answer why. You just didn't like the answer. The gap between the power of an angel and the power of a God is astronomically large and vast to the point where it would take a near impossible amount of growth to even come close to them. This has been shown in the narrative several times. You would have to prove how the gap is small enough to be closed by a few power increases for your point to make any sense.

What do you mean "why is Broly compared to Beerus"? He's obviously within his realm of power hence the comparison. Beerus has been stated to literally be asleep for millions of years and even when he's awake he does nothing but loaf around and eat. The fact that you would even think to say it's ridiculous to say he's lazy has me thinking you didn't really watch or read the series to understand his character because there's no way you could logically come to that conclusion given everything we see of him.

[KentMan]

That’s not what I said. I said we have no idea if UE would be enough for Beerus to be on Whis’ level or above. That obviously doesn’t mean Beerus can’t get stronger, even if he doesn’t reach Whis’ level. And of course we know how UE works by Vegeta’s explanation.

That fight is nothing like Cell vs. Goku. Cell was holding back, Jiren wasn’t. Jiren actually was breaking his own limits to keep up with Goku.

I’m going with it revs you up because again by your thoughts and opinion Beerus should already be equal or stronger than Whis. Vegeta UE statement is really ambiguous as what he means. Maybe it does literally strengthen someone or maybe it’s something else.

When I say like cell I’m not counting cell regeneration power. And Jiren as revealed when fighting Goku and Vegeta still had a lot of power. Meaning he was close to using his super full power as the wiki calls it. If Goku and him were equals Goku would never had lost or fail to knock Jiren down or out.

[KentMan]

It makes perfect sense and is represented in the narrative. I did answer why. You just didn't like the answer. The gap between the power of an angel and the power of a God is astronomically large and vast to the point where it would take a near impossible amount of growth to even come close to them. This has been shown in the narrative several times. You would have to prove how the gap is small enough to be closed by a few power increases for your point to make any sense.

What do you mean "why is Broly compared to Beerus"? He's obviously within his realm of power hence the comparison. Beerus has been stated to literally be asleep for millions of years and even when he's awake he does nothing but loaf around and eat. The fact that you would even think to say it's ridiculous to say he's lazy has me thinking you didn't really watch or read the series to understand his character because there's no way you could logically come to that conclusion given everything we see of him.

Again that makes no sense Goku is already tangling with destroyer level opponents. And unlike Beerus it didn’t take Goku that long to reach that kinda strength. Jiren is stronger than a destroyer and as far as we know he doesn’t have divine ki. I know there’s a gap but it’s not impossible to reach and surpass it.

You’re not understanding that Broly someone who just appeared recently. Had Goku tell the audience that he’s probably stronger than Beerus. He was never said to be weaker and that says something. That Goku doesn’t see Beerus as the strongest with the exception of Whis and the GP.