Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 112 - GT 49-53

[Robo4900]

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 112 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

I think episodes 49 and 50 are okay, and 51-53 are rather good. Wish we got more time with the dragons, though. 50 and 51 could have both done with being two episodes, and the 52-53 one could have done with being three or four. Give the stories more time to develop and breathe, give us more time with the dragons.

Oh well.

Poll time!
GT episode 64 is coming up. Do we put it as a lone GT episode in the same week as the 10th anniversary movie finishing the rewatch off with both of those, or do we expand Week 114 to six episodes so it can include episode 64, then the final week can have the 10th anniversary movie on its own?
Vote now: [Poll concluded; Week 114 will only cover GT 59-63]

Previous thread: Week 111 (GT 44-48)
Next thread: Week 113 (GT 54-58)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 493 - The Strongest Enemy?! The Fearsome Dragon who Uses Dirty Tricks (GT episode 49)
Ocean dub title: The Two-Starred Dragon's Terrifying Secret Technique?
Funimation dub title: The Two-Star Dragon
Originally aired 18th of June 1997
Written by: Shinobu Ōito
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Noboru Koizumi

A large green guy tells Goku and Pan to get out of his swamp. But they don't, and they instead kill him and steal his stuff.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• Missed trivia: In the ViZ version of the Pilaf Arc, when Bulma explains to Goku about the Dragon Balls, he momentarily feels sorry for the dragon having lost his balls, confusing them for testes: "Y'mean... some poor dragon?". The Evil Dragons Arc is focused entirely around killing dragons and taking their balls!
• Missed trivia: On the 24th of May 1997, between GT episodes 45 and 46 airing in Japan, the first "season" of Dragon Ball Z finished airing in the United States, at the conclusion of the Vegeta battle. By all accounts, it was a pretty successful first season, which led to its second season airing in double bills (no doubt improving the show's pacing), beginning in September the same year. Its ratings would continue to be very good well into that second season.
  • KBABZ note: Speaking of which, the original Dragon Ball never had seasons, as do most anime (particularly those adapting an ongoing manga). If you look at any of the US releases of Dragon Ball anime, the seasons are always related to the number of episodes put onto the discs in the set, rather than a specific story arc.
• The Two-Star Dragon claims he has a reputation for being the strongest of the seven Evil Dragons. This may seem to be a simple boast, but given his ability to drain the strength of his opponents away, it's not totally inconceivable he could beat even the One-Star Dragon, if he could survive long enough for that dragon to run out of energy. Given it didn't take long for Goku and Pan to be drained low enough for him to be able to easily deal with them, he probably wouldn't have to survive long against the One-Star Dragon either, so this does actually seem pretty feasible.
  • KBABZ note: It's possible that his intent is to say he's the most dangerous dragon thanks to this ability, rather than the most powerful. In that way he's rather similar to Guldo, who would be the most dangerous member had he mastered being able to hold his breath.
• Judging by the nasal sound of her voice, it seems the actress playing Pan in the Ocean dub of this episode may have had a cold.
• This episode contains the first suggestions of a Dragon just handing over a Dragon Ball. Although we will never see a dragon willingly give up their ball, it is implied a few times that they can give up the balls without dying, they just never do this in the show so Goku and Pan have no choice but to kill the dragons so their balls can be claimed.
• The Two-Star Dragon is the first of four to use the same feet sound as Cell abd Freeza. The Five, Six, and Seven-Star Dragons are the only ones who don't.
• We find out here that Gill can read telepathic communication.
• We also find out that Goku and Pan can each hold their breath for a pretty impressively long time.
• The "proper names" of the Evil Dragons follow a simple scheme: They're the Chinese for [Number] Star Dragon. So for instance, the Chinese for "One" is Yi, so the One-Star Dragon's proper name is Yi Xing Long. Since this is a Japanese show though, these names go through a layer of transliteration into Japanese, giving us Ī-Shinron. The English translations (including the subtitles) tend to flitter between romanising these names and translating them depending on context, implying the romanisations are proper names while the translations are titles, sort of like "I am Kame-Sen'nin, the Turtle Hermit" from ViZ's translation of the manga.
  • The Evil Dragons' names are closely tied to the Dragon Balls themselves, which are referred to by the characters in the Japanese show in Chinese in a similar manner, the one-star ball for instance being Yi Xing Qiu (Ī-Shinchu). The English dubs so far have all eliminated this name scheme so this connection is lost, though the ViZ manga has sometimes referred to the balls using their Chinese names (though how they're romanised varies wildly).
  • The English dubs both changed the romanised names of the Evil Dragons from their original forms. The Ocean version mostly adheres to romanising the Japanese approximation of the Chinese words, but with Shinron swapped out for Shenron for unknown reasons. The spellings are also a little different, Ī-Shinron instead being Ii Shenron (that's two i characters, to be clear). This is pretty minor compared to Funimation's choice to completely rename them all; in order from the One-Star Dragon to the Seven-Star Dragon, they gave them the names Syn, Haze, Eis, Nuova, Rage, Oceanus, and Naturon Shenron. In addition, after the One-Star Dragon gets his big powerup they renamed him Omega Shenron and changed his voice actor for good measure.
  • Funimation's system does completely lose the Chinese counting scheme of the original names, but it does add a new name scheme: The first letter of each dragon from one to seven spells out "SHENRON", which is how Funimation chose to adapt the name Shen Long.
  • The Chinese word for two is actually "Er", but the Two-Star Dragon is Liang Xing Long (or Ryan-Shinron). According to Kanzenshuu's guide on this, the word Liang is closer in meaning to "pair", and its use is pretty mysterious since the two-star Dragon Ball has always been referred to as Er Xing Qiu.

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Episode 494 - Saiya Power Bested?! The Electrical Beast, Wu Xing Long (GT episode 50)
Ocean dub title: The Five-Starred Dragon: The Electric Slime Monster!
Funimation dub title: The Five-Star Dragon
Originally aired 25th of June 1997
Written by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Hidehiko Kadota
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

Goku wins a fight using his latest and greatest technique: Blind luck.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• An unknown amount of time has passed since the end of the last episode. Probably not a long time, but perhaps long enough for Pan to retrieve an unseen camera from her bag and have Goku take a picture of her holding the ball so that picture could be framed in her future house and Goku Jr. could see it and be inspired to climb Mt. Paozu...
• Like his predecessor, the Five-Star Dragon claims to be the strongest of the seven Evil Dragons, and like his predecessor he may well have a point; his inflatable exterior took a 10x Kamehameha head-on and didn't get a scratch on it. Unfortunately he got buggered over by unfortunate timing of the rain. Granted, if he'd been a bit smarter and thought to check around for rain clouds, he could have decided to not get so big so he could shelter himself from the rain once it was about to start. If he'd thought ahead like that, he could have beaten Goku and Pan.
• Unlike the flashback in the previous episode, the flashback to the Five-Star Dragon's origin wish is made up of newly-drawn shots, rather than recycled footage.
• If the dragon wanted to kill Goku and Pan, he would have been better off increasing the amperage than the voltage.

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Episode 495 - Liu Xing Long! Find the Weakness of the Great Waterspout Attack (GT episode 51)
Ocean dub title: Pan and Goku vs. The Evil Princess Otto!
Funimation dub title: The Six-Star Dragon
Originally aired 2nd of July 1997
Written by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Takahiro Imamura
Animation supervisor: Kazuya Hisada

Goku and Pan discover a village where, if you take away the need to struggle to find food, everyone becomes a lazy alcoholic.
Goku then tries spinning, that's a good trick, and battles a living beyblade.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• The name Princess Oto likely comes from Oto-Hime (Hime translates to English as "princess"), the name of the princess of the Dragon Palace in a Japanese fairy tale Urashimako.
  • The tale involves a fisherman being rewarded for rescuing a turtle by being taken to the palace for several days (he thinks), then he leaves and is given a box and told not to open it; he returns home and realises he's actually been gone for 100 years. He decides to open the box, and immediately becomes very old.
  • This tale was referenced all the way back in Dragon Ball episode 3, when Bulma wonders aloud whether Turtle will bring her back a box they are not supposed to open, as a reward for them bringing him back to the sea.
• It's not clear how spinning really fast allows the Six-Star Dragon to completely change her appearance.
• It is, however, true that in many myths, dragons tend to take a humanoid form under many circumstances.
• This is the last of the Evil Dragons whose fight is depicted in just one episode.

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Episode 496 - Look Out, Pan! Qi Xing Long's Backup Plan (GT episode 52)
Ocean dub title: The Scheming Seven-Starred Dragon!
Funimation dub title: The Seven-Star Dragon
Originally aired 9th of July 1997
Written by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Tadayoshi Yamamuro

Who would win: Two mighty Saiyan warriors, one of whom is capable of the legendary Super Saiyan transformation which he used to kill the man who destroyed his ancestral home, or one diggy boy?

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• KBABZ: This episode's title rhymes!
  • Robo: I haven't checked to see if the Simmons translation does as well. If anyone has the DVDs or something, let us know.
• Interestingly, the Seven-Star Dragon indicates that he simply doesn't want to give his Dragon Ball to Goku and Pan, no indication that he fears for his life if he gives it up. This is a commonality with many of the dragons; giving up their ball is something they don't want to do, and they end up dying to try to keep it, but it's not necessarily the case that they need the ball to survive. However, the Seven-Star Dragon is different from the others; towards the end of this episode, he claims his body is the Seven-Star Ball itself, which muddies this aspect of the dragons ever so slightly. (Though the real muddying comes from the fact we never actually see a dragon separate from their ball, and during the fight with the One-Star Dragon it's implied quite heavily that all the individual dragons' powers are still within their balls)
• The Seven-Star Dragon at the beginning of this episode is the first time since Android 8 that an opponent has been presented who simply doesn't want to fight.
• Unlike the previous two episodes, the flashback to the wish that created the Seven-Star Dragon uses recycled footage from the Z episodes depicting the wish and the events leading up to that wish.
• Like the first two dragons, the Seven-Star Dragon claims to be the strongest of all, and just like them, he has a point; if he kept taking strong bodies, such as Goku's and Pan's, or even the other dragons, he could pretty believably be the strongest dragon.

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Episode 497 - Pan Vanishes?! A Tearful 10x Kamehameha (GT episode 53)
Ocean dub title: Trapped in the Belly of the Beast! Is Pan Lost for Good?!
Funimation dub title: Saying Goodbye
Originally aired 16th of July 1997
Written by: Shinobu Ōito
Episode director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

A villain capable of absorbing people fires a Kamehameha.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• It's worth noting that, at this point, Goku had no idea if he would be able to revive Pan if he defeated the Seven-Star Dragon. Who's to say that once the dragons were all defeated, the balls would ever be safe to use again?
• Despite him saying the Seven-Star Ball itself is his body in the last episode, the dragon presents a small body of sorts.

.

____

Trivia written by Robo and KBABZ. Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide.

[MasenkoHA]

Personally, I’d rather the 10th anniversary film and the finale have their own separate threads but I understand if you and KBABZ want to end this sooner than later, you guys have stayed committed to this for over 2 years.

[Robo4900]

Personally, I’d rather the 10th anniversary film and the finale have their own separate threads but I understand if you and KBABZ want to end this sooner than later, you guys have stayed committed to this for over 2 years.

That is an interesting proposal that hadn't occurred to me, and that I don't think had occurred to KBABZ either.

Would feel a bit weird to have an episode on its own in a week, though.

Might run a second poll either this week or next week pitting the winner of this poll against that suggestion. I'll talk it over with KBABZ.

[Koitsukai]

I just can't get enough of the first dragon, he cracks me up too much. He is funny in every language, and looks great too.
I was expecting a really serious threat, but this guy was a treat. He was serious and kinda dumb at the same time, and the threat he presented was original.

The next dragons... the electricity dude and the one from the ocean not so much. None of them made me laugh, I couldn't take any of them seriously, and one of them is actually offensive to transgender people, according to Julie. I don't like any of their designs.

The Earth dragon does work, he is also fantastic in every language. And he gets down to business, he is a fucker, he seems so naive and ok at first, and in the second episode he shows his true colors. I don't think Goku thought through the whole not being able to resurrect Pan thing. He could still go to Namek and ask them for one last favour.

From the previous Rewatch, I'm positive that Ih Shinron's dragon was the one that is surfing through clouds right before the filth dragon is introduced. The dragon blends with the air.

I still wonder if the dragons were already destined to have those abilities and characteristics, or if they just landed where they did. The Sun dragon landed inside of a volcano because the volcano was there, or were they searching for a volcano. Was the ice dragon searching for a snowy field or just happened to have been sent there? The first dragon seems to have chosen that lake, so maybe they already have some type of "preference".

[MyVisionity]

Yeah I hate these episodes. They just really don't work at all for me. The plot just falls completely flat. I'm not sure exactly what would have made them better.

Hmm... I liked the Two-Star Dragon calling out Pan for her arched eyebrows!

I also appreciate the scenes of the gang back at Capsule Corp and Mt. Pao-tzu. GT does nice with the family dynamics. It's got a Full House vibe or something.

Five-Star Dragon being born from the wish that revived Goku in the Saiyan arc makes sense, given that he is the Gosei Ryū. Nice that the writers put at least a little thought into these episodes.

Speaking of which, I also like that the dragon born from Oolong's wish for a gal's panties appears as a young woman lol. This episode overall might be one of the better ones, probably because it tries to tell an actual story with actual characters (like Bish lol) instead of just Goku and Pan in an abandoned area fighting a dragon. It feels like something that could come from the Pilaf arc or Black Star arc or some decent filler arc maybe.

I think that I would have enjoyed the battle with Seven Star better if he actually fought Goku as a giant-sized Pan. Or maybe if Goku turned Oozaru to fight him or something.


******
I like the idea of giving Episode 64 its own separate week before the movie. That or the six episode week followed by the movie.

[WittyUsername]

Episode 51 is an interesting episode, in that it tries to have an actual story. The rest of the episodes in this arc are basically just all fighting, so seeing this subplot with a random kid trying to reconnect with his father is pretty unusual. I also think Liu Xing Long actually has a fair amount of personality for a monster of the week, but she only lasted one episode and she’s not really a powerhouse, so people rarely talk about her.

[Koitsukai]

I think this arc was a missed opportunity to have the original team that was going to search for the DBs in space + Pan. I don't know why they dropped Trunks, even Giru is there. I guess, there was some backlash from the fans and they chose to lose Trunks completely, instead of adjusting his character... and having Goten with him would've been a good move.

Just imagine, Goku, Pan, Trunks, Goten and Giru (G&G vibing). It would've been refreshing, and kind of a family trip. Also, the so-called Next Gen as adults and the old gen as a kid, lol.

I still cannot get my head around nobody helping Goku and Pan to do this. At Chichi's house they were having tea, where was Gohan? your daughter is fighting dragons and your father is 10 years old, and where was Trunks? I can understand Vegeta not giving a fuck, and Goten getting laid one last time before the world is over, but Trunks was a little more level-headed, and the guys he spent a year in space with where saving the world again, and he is just nowhere to be seen.

[Robo4900]

I guess, there was some backlash from the fans and they chose to lose Trunks completely, instead of adjusting his character... and having Goten with him would've been a good move.

Like Toriyama, I don't think Toei was paying any attention to any backlash you may imagine happened. Though realistically, I don't think there was any backlash to react to anyway; Japanese fans on the whole either didn't care (and thus didn't watch) or just watched it and kinda enjoyed it.
People forget that it's only really American fans who hate GT with a passion, though that has infected some sectors of the broader English-speaking fandom. In general, global Dragon Ball fans tend to enjoy it, but not love it.

I'll also stress once again something that bothers me that I've discussed before; yes, I'm sure you can imagine various other ways this scenario could have been done that would have appealed to you more, but it's not really a useful criticism of GT's storytelling to say "I wish this show was a different show", you have to engage with it for what it is first to really criticise it. Instead, you're voicing a distaste for it that comes from a place of preferring a show that doesn't exist.

Not saying you're wrong for disliking this arc, but I don't think this particular line of discussion has much bearing on GT's quality itself.

As for myself, I don't think Trunks really came off as much of a well-developed character at any point in GT, and most of the Black-Star Balls hunt arc had nothing to do with him anyway (remember all those times a fight would happen and Trunks would just sit on the sidelines and wait for the fight to be over?), so dropping him but keeping the other three from the original team makes sense for a second ball hunting arc that concludes the story, so on the point of "Why did they junk Trunks?", I'd say there's a justifiable reason.
But also in general I really like this arc as it is, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask for a view on how well Trunks was utilised.

--

My view on the Dragons this week: The first Dragon, the toxic energy drain one, was IMO pretty funny and a neat idea for a villain who gets to believably stand up to the protagonists. I also appreciate the fact Goku let Pan fight this guy, but was standing by ready to step in if it got too bad.
The second Dragon, the electricity one, is okay. Not amazing. Feels a bit rushed and yet also anaemic as a story. Ends kinda disappointingly.
The third, the water one, was IMO pretty fun. She's a unique personality, the way she has a hold over the village is neat, though why precisely the whole village became deadbeat alcoholics isn't explained so it leaves the troubling undercurrent of "If you take away people's need to struggle to live, they'll become lazy bums" which is a hell of a political message, and not one I can abide by. Still, the fight is fun at least. I lack the right education to comment on any trans issues inherent to her character or the story, so I won't comment on that either way. It's not really my place to as a straight cis white dude anyway.
The fourth one, which absorbs Pan, is IMO the most interesting so far. He's a pretty cool character at first, not wanting to fight, and then when they get him angry he turns out to be pretty damn unpleasant, and it creates quite the dilemma for Goku. I liked that. Can Goku really kill his granddaughter? It's an interesting one. And this is the first Dragon whose fight takes more than one episode, so we have much more room for the character, his skillset, etc. to develop. I think the previous few could have done with more time as well, and along with that maybe this one could have done with running into a third episode. Give it the space to feel really big, epic, and depict the conflict within Goku about the situation.

[Koitsukai]

I'll also stress once again something that bothers me that I've discussed before; yes, I'm sure you can imagine various other ways this scenario could have been done that would have appealed to you more, but it's not really a useful criticism of GT's storytelling to say "I wish this show was a different show", you have to engage with it for what it is first to really criticise it. Instead, you're voicing a distaste for it that comes from a place of preferring a show that doesn't exist.

Not saying you're wrong for disliking this arc, but I don't think this particular line of discussion has much bearing on GT's quality itself.

As for myself, I don't think Trunks really came off as much of a well-developed character at any point in GT, and most of the Black-Star Balls hunt arc had nothing to do with him anyway (remember all those times a fight would happen and Trunks would just sit on the sidelines and wait for the fight to be over?), so dropping him but keeping the other three from the original team makes sense for a second ball hunting arc that concludes the story, so on the point of "Why did they junk Trunks?", I'd say there's a justifiable reason.
But also in general I really like this arc as it is, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask for a view on how well Trunks was utilised.

I disagree. Starting from the fact that who are we to say what is a useful criticism or not, it's a completely valid criticism to point out something that makes the arc, IMO, lose points: having only 2 out of 10 characters, dropping the 3rd character of the initial bunch, to engage with 7 new enemies is something that makes this part of the arc somewhat repetitive and predictable.
Not that it is wrong on itself, but having no explanation as of why nobody is taking part in this arc until it's too late, is also perfectly valid to point out. The unbalance of the characters in the arc isn't off limits just because one also ventures what else could've been done here.

You might not like other opinions, but if the point of the thread was to only have nice things said about the show, perhaps it should've been stated in the beginning, so all the negative part of the show, which exists, is left out at the time of dropping a comment.

[sangofe]

I guess, there was some backlash from the fans and they chose to lose Trunks completely, instead of adjusting his character... and having Goten with him would've been a good move.

People forget that it's only really American fans who hate GT with a passion, though that has infected some sectors of the broader English-speaking fandom. In general, global Dragon Ball fans tend to enjoy it, but not love it.

Well, GT was not liked at all in France. And it's the only show that didn't get a subbed versions except the first 4 episodes. That could however be to more factors than people just not liking it for what it was. 1) It didn't air on any free channels. 2) It aired several years after the end of DBZ. and 3) Most of the comments you heard online were negative.

I'll also stress once again something that bothers me that I've discussed before; yes, I'm sure you can imagine various other ways this scenario could have been done that would have appealed to you more, but it's not really a useful criticism of GT's storytelling to say "I wish this show was a different show", you have to engage with it for what it is first to really criticise it. Instead, you're voicing a distaste for it that comes from a place of preferring a show that doesn't exist.

Not saying you're wrong for disliking this arc, but I don't think this particular line of discussion has much bearing on GT's quality itself.

As for myself, I don't think Trunks really came off as much of a well-developed character at any point in GT, and most of the Black-Star Balls hunt arc had nothing to do with him anyway (remember all those times a fight would happen and Trunks would just sit on the sidelines and wait for the fight to be over?), so dropping him but keeping the other three from the original team makes sense for a second ball hunting arc that concludes the story, so on the point of "Why did they junk Trunks?", I'd say there's a justifiable reason.
But also in general I really like this arc as it is, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask for a view on how well Trunks was utilised.

I disagree. Starting from the fact that who are we to say what is a useful criticism or not, it's a completely valid criticism to point out something that makes the arc, IMO, lose points: having only 2 out of 10 characters, dropping the 3rd character of the initial bunch, to engage with 7 new enemies is something that makes this part of the arc somewhat repetitive and predictable.
Not that it is wrong on itself, but having no explanation as of why nobody is taking part in this arc until it's too late, is also perfectly valid to point out. The unbalance of the characters in the arc isn't off limits just because one also ventures what else could've been done here.

You might not like other opinions, but if the point of the thread was to only have nice things said about the show, perhaps it should've been stated in the beginning, so all the negative part of the show, which exists, is left out at the time of dropping a comment.

I liked the originaly of some of the Dragons. I didn't like that it became a Goku and Pan show only. I like a lot more Young Jiji's in Dragon Ball AF take on the Evil Dragons.

[MyVisionity]

I lack the right education to comment on any trans issues inherent to her character or the story, so I won't comment on that either way. It's not really my place to as a straight cis white dude anyway.

It's everyone's place. Don't let your straight cis white male identity stop you from calling out social issues when you see them. You just have to be careful about how you go about it. I understand, however, about not commenting due to a lack of education. But even then, sometimes it's better to say something than to say nothing at all.

[Robo4900]

I lack the right education to comment on any trans issues inherent to her character or the story, so I won't comment on that either way. It's not really my place to as a straight cis white dude anyway.

It's everyone's place. Don't let your straight cis white male identity stop you from calling out social issues when you see them. You just have to be careful about how you go about it. I understand, however, about not commenting due to a lack of education. But even then, sometimes it's better to say something than to say nothing at all.

It's really not, though. It's been said in this thread that Julie on this forum said that Dragon is problematic, but I lack the knowledge to comment on it in any useful way, and I mean... Julie is here on the forum. If someone wants to ask her, they can just go do that. So, who cares what I think, when not only am I not trans, but I'm not educated enough on the stereotypes, issues, etc. to even register that this Dragon might be a problem. Someone suggested she is a problem, I can imagine a few ways that could apply, but I'm hardly in a position to examine or explain that. Even though I could easily just copypaste what Julie said, what if someone else who's trans popped up and disagreed with her read on the character? Well, both of their opinions are far more worthwhile than mine, so I'd rather just stay out of it and let the discussion happen among people who know what they're talking about and who the issue concerns.
It'd be far more useful to ask someone who's black about their opinion on Mr. Popo, right? A lot of white people assumed Popo was a clear cut case, but some black users of this forum had some interesting views to share when there was a thread about Popo a while back.

And really, even if I did know what I was talking about, if you want to understand why this Dragon might be considered problematic to trans people, go and ask a trans person who has previously been known to be good with discussing it!
If you want to hear this cishet white dude's opinions on trans issues, I'll just say this: Trans rights!
I think that's all I need to say on the matter, and better yet, it's all I really want to say on the matter.

I disagree. Starting from the fact that who are we to say what is a useful criticism or not, it's a completely valid criticism to point out something that makes the arc, IMO, lose points: having only 2 out of 10 characters, dropping the 3rd character of the initial bunch, to engage with 7 new enemies is something that makes this part of the arc somewhat repetitive and predictable.
Not that it is wrong on itself, but having no explanation as of why nobody is taking part in this arc until it's too late, is also perfectly valid to point out. The unbalance of the characters in the arc isn't off limits just because one also ventures what else could've been done here.

Again, I wasn't saying you're wrong for disliking the arc or that you're wrong for disliking the choice to drop Trunks, but this arc is somewhat defined by the fact it's just Pan and Goku, plus the sapient radar, and I don't see how putting in a couple of extra characters would address your view that the 7 fights feel "repetitive and predictable". If the different ways the fights tend to go before they reach the conclusion of the good guys winning isn't enough for you, I don't see how Trunks, Goten, and Gohan hanging around like you wanted would change any of that.

"I find this arc repetitive and predictable" - okay, fine. I disagree, and I don't understand how, but I'm not saying you're wrong for holding this opinion, I just disagree with it.
"they should have involved a bunch of the other characters" - this is you proposing a solution without a problem. It's not a criticism, it's a wish.

You might not like other opinions, but if the point of the thread was to only have nice things said about the show, perhaps it should've been stated in the beginning, so all the negative part of the show, which exists, is left out at the time of dropping a comment.

I never at any point said that you're wrong for having or sharing these opinions, in fact I said the opposite a couple of times.
I was voicing a criticism of your criticism, that's all. If you can't take a criticism of your criticism, then why talk on an open forum?

The only discussions I don't like to see in these threads are out-of-control power level discussions, and MyVisionity being an utter creep. Anything else is fair game basically, even if I personally disagree with the views expressed.

Like, if you came and said "GT sucks. Super is better", you know I'm going to disagree with you quite strongly if I feel like engaging with that line of discussion, but that isn't me saying a view isn't welcome here, it's me voicing my side of the discussion.
And in this case, I think part of your argument feels like it isn't actually criticism, so I'm going to tell you that that's what I think.

[Jord]

I really like the designs of these first few dragons. They're a diverse bunch and the water one has one of the best and most unique designs for a female villain in the series. What I dislike is the pacing and how the first set are beaten so quickly. It removes a bit of the drama that build up when the evil dragon appeared from the dragon balls. (Also, a shame how they didn't have to face that dragon since he had an interesting design and personality.)
I get the idea (7 dragons for 7 wishes) but I'd rather would have seen less dragons so we could get more out of them.

[Koitsukai]

I disagree. Starting from the fact that who are we to say what is a useful criticism or not, it's a completely valid criticism to point out something that makes the arc, IMO, lose points: having only 2 out of 10 characters, dropping the 3rd character of the initial bunch, to engage with 7 new enemies is something that makes this part of the arc somewhat repetitive and predictable.
Not that it is wrong on itself, but having no explanation as of why nobody is taking part in this arc until it's too late, is also perfectly valid to point out. The unbalance of the characters in the arc isn't off limits just because one also ventures what else could've been done here.

Again, I wasn't saying you're wrong for disliking the arc or that you're wrong for disliking the choice to drop Trunks, but this arc is somewhat defined by the fact it's just Pan and Goku, plus the sapient radar, and I don't see how putting in a couple of extra characters would address your view that the 7 fights feel "repetitive and predictable". If the different ways the fights tend to go before they reach the conclusion of the good guys winning isn't enough for you, I don't see how Trunks, Goten, and Gohan hanging around like you wanted would change any of that.

"I find this arc repetitive and predictable" - okay, fine. I disagree, and I don't understand how, but I'm not saying you're wrong for holding this opinion, I just disagree with it.
"they should have involved a bunch of the other characters" - this is you proposing a solution without a problem. It's not a criticism, it's a wish.

You might not like other opinions, but if the point of the thread was to only have nice things said about the show, perhaps it should've been stated in the beginning, so all the negative part of the show, which exists, is left out at the time of dropping a comment.

I never at any point said that you're wrong for having or sharing these opinions, in fact I said the opposite a couple of times.
I was voicing a criticism of your criticism, that's all. If you can't take a criticism of your criticism, then why talk on an open forum?

The only discussions I don't like to see in these threads are out-of-control power level discussions, and MyVisionity being an utter creep. Anything else is fair game basically, even if I personally disagree with the views expressed.

Like, if you came and said "GT sucks. Super is better", you know I'm going to disagree with you quite strongly if I feel like engaging with that line of discussion, but that isn't me saying a view isn't welcome here, it's me voicing my side of the discussion.
And in this case, I think part of your argument feels like it isn't actually criticism, so I'm going to tell you that that's what I think.

Well, to you it isn't a problem, to me it is, because I'm bored of seeing the same two characters over and over, when the set up opens up the space for the rest of the cast that had been sidelined for dozens of episodes. We had 3 characters, now we have 2. You like that, I do not. I criticize that route they took.

I wanted more dynamics between them, I wanted to see interactions between different characters, I want more than just a couple of scenes vs Android 19 of Goten and Trunks. And if I'm not getting that, I'd like to know why, an in-universe reason as of why nobody is helping them, what was so important that they weren't fighting the greatest threat ever?
I mean, is it so crazy and so not-a-critique to want this to be addressed? to want to know why now everybody is still sidelined?

The previous arcs were set up in such a way that it was justified not seeing that, not everybody can go to space, not everybody can fight Super 17, but this one had the ideal set up for it and it still relied on the old formula, but dropping another character.
This is my main problem with this arc, 7 dragons and only Goku and his 10 year old sidekick fighting them back, without news about the rest of the cast until Goku got destroyed by the last dragon. You don't think it's a critique, fine, it is still a problem I have with the arc.

[sunsetshimmer]

they renamed him Omega Shenron and changed his voice actor for good measure.

As much as i like how they changed their names to make them easier to remember and form SHENRON, i despise entire "Omega" thing. That was completely pointless change, especially considering he still calls himself Omega and retains his new voice even after losing all the dragon balls. FUNimation really didn't think that out very well.

I just can't get enough of the first dragon, he cracks me up too much. He is funny in every language, and looks great too.
I was expecting a really serious threat, but this guy was a treat. He was serious and kinda dumb at the same time, and the threat he presented was original.

He's underrated. I will never understand that popular "only last three dragons were cool" opinion. I actually consider Syn and Eis to be worst dragons right after Rage who was terrible.

one of them is actually offensive to transgender people

I still disagree with that but maybe i lack point of view. I recently met transgender girl so i'd have to ask her what she thinks about that. I have big hopes for that relationship and willing to learn more so maybe i'll change my mind about that someday.

probably because it tries to tell an actual story with actual characters (like Bish lol) instead of just Goku and Pan in an abandoned area fighting a dragon.

Too bad we never heard about Bish anymore considering Pan promised him to visit them again. Would be cool to mention him at least in TV special if only it was made after GT instead of middle of series. Who knows, maybe he's Goku's Jr. grandpa lol.

I don't know why they dropped Trunks, even Giru is there.

Yeah i will never understand why Trunks was thrown aside after first arc. Even in Baby arc (that was direct sequel of first arc) he didn't have big role except for one heroic moment when he saved Pan and faced Baby. Would be better if he never got infected just like Goku and Pan.

[Robo4900]

Well, I think the poll's result is fairly clear. 59-63 being one episode longer is not what people want. 64 and the movie being together in one week is the winner of those two options.

However, in the next thread I'll run another poll, for whether 64 is on its own, followed by the movie in its own week, or if we have the two in the same week.

I'll still leave this poll open for the couple of days left until the next thread, but I don't expect the result to change, so I thought I'd explain the plan for next week right now.

[Gilby1385]

Well, I think the poll's result is fairly clear. 59-63 being one episode longer is not what people want. 64 and the movie being together in one week is the winner of those two options.

Last time I viewed the results I thought I was going to lose again, like with that poll over where the 10th anniversary movie should be placed. I was surprised to see the choice I went with winning so fast!

[Xeogran]

In regards to the Oceanus Shenron fight, am I the only one wondering where did Pan get a spare set of identical clothes for Goku?

His clothes got shrunken alongside his body back in Episode 1.

[Robo4900]

In regards to the Oceanus Shenron fight, am I the only one wondering where did Pan get a spare set of identical clothes for Goku?

His clothes got shrunken alongside his body back in Episode 1.

Maybe he got a tailor to make him another few sets before he left, and Pan still had a change of clothes or two of his in her backpack from the search for the Black-Star Balls. (Or she went and grabbed a set before joining Goku on the Evil Dragons quest, knowing how his clothes tend to get ripped up or lost in these sorts of fights)

BTW, thread for today is nearly ready. KBABZ is just doing a run-through of the trivia, which we'll inevitably argue about for a while before we're both happy for the thread to get posted.