Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[Skar]

The thing about Gohan and his forms is a bit weird, though:

Four years after Majin Buu saga, he uses Ultimate against Beerus. One year after that, he uses Super Saiyan against Freeza. Three years after that, he uses Super Saiyan and Ultimate against random dudes. A possible conclusion to have is that Gohan may simply choose what transformation he'll use.

It's possible Toriyama wrote Gohan only going SSJ in BoG and they colored his hair black against Beerus after the story was written. I think SSJ Gotenks outlasted Gohan in BoG so Gohan might've already lost a lot of power by then. I guess either explanation could work for Super Hero. Gohan either slacked off again and only regains Ultimate by the end of the film or it acknowledges he did train again after RoF but could only use Ultimate in short bursts.

[TheMajinRedComet]

I think we need to let go of the Gohan form debates. After Super I'm just going to assume that he is using whatever form he wants even if it confuses us. I will put it in the same boat as why characters don't fly in early GT and why Goku almost never uses SSJ2 in GT.

[ZombieVito]

Unless they've been training. Considering Broly was as powerful as he was without any real training, he could possibly be stronger than both Goku and Vegeta at this point.

It won't happen but I want Broly vs Beerus in this. That will seriously be hype.

[YamiGoku]

Unless they've been training. Considering Broly was as powerful as he was without any real training, he could possibly be stronger than both Goku and Vegeta at this point.

It won't happen but I want Broly vs Beerus in this. That will seriously be hype.

I don't think this is out of the realm of possibilities considering how often Beerus Likes to test Goku/Vegeta strength, and now Broly is there, and he is very powerful so he may pick Beerus attention.

[ObnoxiousNamek]

I hate all the Toriyama worship and I hate his current vision for the series.

Some on this site might say your out of line for saying this but your right. Someone involved in the production of Super who won’t hold their tongue needs to sit Toriyama down and have a stern talk about his writing and direction (or complete lack thereof) for Dragonball as of late.

Some serious changes need to be made preferably by the end of this year if not sooner. Fire who you need to fire, bring in some new qualified & capable blood just get something done ASAP. Cause as it’s currently constructed now the Dragonball room team is a clusterfuck of mediocrity and talentless hacks.


Star-power & nostalgia bait of grown up kids & “new” shitty forms isn’t enough to salvage this movie which is just an amalgamation of previous Z movies we’ve already seen many times before.

[ZeroNeonix]

I hate all the Toriyama worship and I hate his current vision for the series.

Some on this site might say your out of line for saying this but your right. Someone involved in the production of Super who won’t hold their tongue needs to sit Toriyama down and have a stern talk about his writing and direction (or complete lack thereof) for Dragonball as of late.

Some serious changes need to be made preferably by the end of this year if not sooner. Fire who you need to fire, bring in some new qualified & capable blood just get something done ASAP. Cause as it’s currently constructed now the Dragonball room team is a clusterfuck of mediocrity and talentless hacks.


Star-power & nostalgia bait of grown up kids & “new” shitty forms isn’t enough to salvage this movie which is just an amalgamation of previous Z movies we’ve already seen many times before.

You quoted the wrong person. TheMikado said this. I thought you were putting words in my mouth there for a second.

[KentMan]

Okay so I saw the spoilers for chapter 82 so far Broly Beerus and even Frieza have not been shown. I guess we still have to wait until we know how this connects to the movie.

[ZeroNeonix]

Okay so I saw the spoilers for chapter 82 so far Broly Beerus and even Frieza have not been shown. I guess we still have to wait until we know how this connects to the movie.

Do we have any reason to think the manga will lead into the Super Hero story, or connect in any meaningful way?

[KentMan]

Okay so I saw the spoilers for chapter 82 so far Broly Beerus and even Frieza have not been shown. I guess we still have to wait until we know how this connects to the movie.

Do we have any reason to think the manga will lead into the Super Hero story, or connect in any meaningful way?

It still is gonna connect but apparently not the way we might think. Goku fighting Granolah with just his blue form might answer why Vegeta is still playing catch up in Super Super Hero.

[Saturnine]

I don't think Toriyama's direction as such is bad for the series - actually it's a nice change after how self-referential of the theatrical movies Z filler and GT was. That stuff had the Toei spirit, the series needs Toriyama spirit instead.

The problem is shortsightedness and making silly statements - they've had to backtrack on so much simply because they didn't have the foresight. Like first Beerus being 10 and SSjG Goku being 6, then how Goku and Vegeta were supposedly able to beat Beerus the first time they got Blue if they fought togetherb also how they backtracked on SBG -> SSj Blue simply because it cut down the number of transformations Goku could use, all because of being worried about long-term sustainability. It's THAT stuff that's killing the franchise and forcing fans to either handwave it or come up with far-fetched in-universe explanations.

[KentMan]

I don't think Toriyama's direction as such is bad for the series - actually it's a nice change after how self-referential of the theatrical movies Z filler and GT was. That stuff had the Toei spirit, the series needs Toriyama spirit instead.

The problem is shortsightedness and making silly statements - they've had to backtrack on so much simply because they didn't have the foresight. Like first Beerus being 10 and SSjG Goku being 6, then how Goku and Vegeta were supposedly able to beat Beerus the first time they got Blue if they fought togetherb also how they backtracked on SBG -> SSj Blue simply because it cut down the number of transformations Goku could use, all because of being worried about long-term sustainability. It's THAT stuff that's killing the franchise and forcing fans to either handwave it or come up with far-fetched in-universe explanations.

They didn’t back track on Beerus being a 10 and Goku SSG being a 6. I was but a few to point out that Goku base in manga and anime were the same. And what was actually said by Whis is that they’ll be able to go toe to toe with Beerus. You can believe it when you see Vegito on how Shin compared his power to Beerus in the manga.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I hate all the Toriyama worship and I hate his current vision for the series.

Some on this site might say your out of line for saying this but your right. Someone involved in the production of Super who won’t hold their tongue needs to sit Toriyama down and have a stern talk about his writing and direction (or complete lack thereof) for Dragonball as of late.

Some serious changes need to be made preferably by the end of this year if not sooner. Fire who you need to fire, bring in some new qualified & capable blood just get something done ASAP. Cause as it’s currently constructed now the Dragonball room team is a clusterfuck of mediocrity and talentless hacks.


Star-power & nostalgia bait of grown up kids & “new” shitty forms isn’t enough to salvage this movie which is just an amalgamation of previous Z movies we’ve already seen many times before.

Lol that's not gonna happen. You might not think the current Dragon Ball is a success, but the banks accounts of those working on the franchise say otherwise and that's all they care about.

[Jord]

I hate all the Toriyama worship and I hate his current vision for the series.

Some on this site might say your out of line for saying this but your right. Someone involved in the production of Super who won’t hold their tongue needs to sit Toriyama down and have a stern talk about his writing and direction (or complete lack thereof) for Dragonball as of late.

Some serious changes need to be made preferably by the end of this year if not sooner. Fire who you need to fire, bring in some new qualified & capable blood just get something done ASAP. Cause as it’s currently constructed now the Dragonball room team is a clusterfuck of mediocrity and talentless hacks.


Star-power & nostalgia bait of grown up kids & “new” shitty forms isn’t enough to salvage this movie which is just an amalgamation of previous Z movies we’ve already seen many times before.

I agree with you but doing that is social suicide due to the culture in Japan. Unfortunately, DB sells well partly due to Toriyama's involvement, disregarding if the quality is up to par. I'd rather see some new blood as well but "story by Toriyama" means a lot over there.
It just seems like Toriyama is just bored with DB seeing as how his output lacks any sense of freshness. And I don't blame him for that. DB has been a factor in most of his professional life.
If it were up to me, I'd rather see him try his hand on some new Dr Slump stuff since I love his gag manga stuff and it's been far too long since we had new Dr Slump media.

[Lukmendes]

Still, if they're making the movies with audiences who don't watch the anime in mind, something as big as Freeza being resurrected at all with no flashbacks is huge, you can get what's going on, but it can sound odd anyways.

They kinda work as a trilogy since the only DBS returning characters and transformations appeared in the two previous films. BoG revealed the multiverse so the followup would be the tournament Goku mentioned that also led to Freeza being resurrected again after RoF. If you're someone who only watches the films, you wouldn't know there were actually three arcs between RoF and Broly, other gods above Beerus, any new forms above Blue, or return of other characters that didn't appear in the films like Future Trunks and #17.

Yeah, they work well enough, I still find the Freeza situation to be odd, since Freeza died again last movie, but suddenly he's back in this one? And he was resurrected off-screen if you don't watch the anime? Yeah.

It's not the worst thing in the world, just odd.

A funny example is that I have a friend who usually only watches anime films. When we were talking about Broly, I said "I wonder why Gohan didn't show up to help" and his response was "you saw him in the last movie. He doesn't train anymore and probably even weaker now". Broly doesn't bring up Gohan or that he participated in the tournament Goku talked about so RoF was the last time he saw Gohan. It might also apply to Super Hero. He might not be confused seeing SSJ Gohan again since that's what Gohan used in his last film appearance.

Good point about Gohan, didn't think about that, hell, looking at Broly as a sequel to RoF can somewhat explain why no one else showed up to deal with him, though the lack of Boo can still look weird lol.

One thing I've noticed is how RoF and ToP both specifically avoid letting Freeza learn of Boo, while it makes sense for ToP, Boo isn't in RoF at all, and his presence, or lack of it, wouldn't change the plot, and RoF shows that Freeza is aware of Boo, I wonder if there's a reason why that's the case, or if that's just a coincidence, since RoF was letting the Earthlings and Piccolo fight a bunch of glorified mooks.

It's possible Toriyama wrote Gohan only going SSJ in BoG and they colored his hair black against Beerus after the story was written. I think SSJ Gotenks outlasted Gohan in BoG so Gohan might've already lost a lot of power by then. I guess either explanation could work for Super Hero. Gohan either slacked off again and only regains Ultimate by the end of the film or it acknowledges he did train again after RoF but could only use Ultimate in short bursts.

Gotenks got spanked a bit and then lost, and that's as far as that fight went, you can say he technically took more hits than Gohan, but those were just ass slaps while Gohan had his head smashed into Boo, and fact he spanked Gotenks at all might mean he was taking Gotenks less seriously than anyone else.

The ones who lasted the longest against Beerus in that party were Boo and Vegeta (Even before he got enraged), and Boo was most likely because he's pretty tough to take down since his regeneration is busted, and Vegeta, I dunno, maybe he was stronger than anyone else there, or Beerus was just fucking around with him more for some reason (Definitely a possibility considering Beerus' personality, anime version even added a bunch of extra scenes with him trolling Vegeta), or just rule of drama lol.

I agree with you but doing that is social suicide due to the culture in Japan. Unfortunately, DB sells well partly due to Toriyama's involvement, disregarding if the quality is up to par. I'd rather see some new blood as well but "story by Toriyama" means a lot over there.

Toriyama's presence means a lot in general, a big reason why the Broly movie was so hyped was because we got to see what Toriyama's interpretation of Broly would be like.

[capsulecorp]

I don't think Toriyama's direction as such is bad for the series - actually it's a nice change after how self-referential of the theatrical movies Z filler and GT was. That stuff had the Toei spirit, the series needs Toriyama spirit instead.

The problem is shortsightedness and making silly statements - they've had to backtrack on so much simply because they didn't have the foresight. Like first Beerus being 10 and SSjG Goku being 6, then how Goku and Vegeta were supposedly able to beat Beerus the first time they got Blue if they fought togetherb also how they backtracked on SBG -> SSj Blue simply because it cut down the number of transformations Goku could use, all because of being worried about long-term sustainability. It's THAT stuff that's killing the franchise and forcing fans to either handwave it or come up with far-fetched in-universe explanations.

I think this is right, or at least I agree with it! The manga and especially the anime are mixed as hell but it seems like Toriyama has been most involved with the films and I think those were all a great time, even the overly-fan-servicey ROF.

As for transformations and power levels, we know that Toriyama is more invested in storytelling than consistency. He doesn't really care about them and he is correct not to. Some fans want to turn the series into a spreadsheet, or charts and graphs, and while they are free to do so, I'm glad the author is not.

[Skar]

The ones who lasted the longest against Beerus in that party were Boo and Vegeta (Even before he got enraged), and Boo was most likely because he's pretty tough to take down since his regeneration is busted, and Vegeta, I dunno, maybe he was stronger than anyone else there, or Beerus was just fucking around with him more for some reason (Definitely a possibility considering Beerus' personality, anime version even added a bunch of extra scenes with him trolling Vegeta), or just rule of drama lol.

In the Buu saga, they mentioned when Goku and Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan and that saga ended with Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks above Goku. BoG didn't mention that Goku surpassed them so I figured they both lost power since the Buu saga since Gotenks only used SSJ1 and Gohan used SSJ that was later recolored black. Maybe Vegeta and Mr. Buu were the strongest after Goku at that point.

[The Monkey King]

As for transformations and power levels, we know that Toriyama is more invested in storytelling than consistency. He doesn't really care about them and he is correct not to.

Caring about 'power levels' or 'story telling' isn't mutually exclusive, inconsistencies of any can hurt the story being told and ruin viewer immersion.

A stand out example of this can be seen in the Goku Black/Future Trunks arc. The writers went out of their way to establish that Trunks doesn't stand a chance against base Black no matter what. Then all of a sudden Trunks is fending off and getting hit's on SSJR Black.

All of the tension built up from their previous battle was for nought, why should the audience bother getting invested in a story if anything can happen at any time with no explanation?

Throughout the original Dragon Ball manga Toriyama used power levels and transformations as story telling devices and to great effect. Why else do you think Goku's first super saiyan transformation resulting in him finally gaining the upper hand on Freeza is so iconic?

It's because it's satisfying story telling.

Character interactions aside, throughout the Namek arc Freeza was a consistent threat due to his high power level and multiple transformations, our protagonist being pushed to finally transform himself in order to gain a higher power level than Freeza and defeat him, a basic but ultimately satisfying and consistent narrative through line.

[Dbzk1999]

A stand out example of this can be seen in the Goku Black/Future Trunks arc. The writers went out of their way to establish that Trunks doesn't stand a chance against base Black no matter what. Then all of a sudden Trunks is fending off and getting hit's on SSJR Black.

All of the tension built up from their previous battle was for nought, why should the audience bother getting invested in a story if anything can happen at any time with no explanation?

Is there not an episode of Trunks both putting himself through image training and then getting trained by Vegeta before going back to confront Black the second time (I wanna say it’s similar in the manga but can somebody that reads it confirm that?)? That, and Trunks doesn’t really get hits on SSJR Black until he gets his Rage form, only real time he does is when he saves Goku from an attack Black is about to deliver (which would be attributed to y’know, Black being focused on Goku)

[capsulecorp]

As for transformations and power levels, we know that Toriyama is more invested in storytelling than consistency. He doesn't really care about them and he is correct not to.

Caring about 'power levels' or 'story telling' isn't mutually exclusive, inconsistencies of any can hurt the story being told and ruin viewer immersion.basic but ultimately satisfying and consistent narrative through line.

Indeed, they're not mutually exclusive.

[SupremeKai25]

The problem is that people tend to underestimate just how much of a factor it is to be off-guard.

I have no doubts that SS2 Trunks was an ant to Base Black, because it's what the Story showed up to that point. But he got Black completely off-guard that one time, he came out of nowhere while Black was focused solely on Goku. That's how he managed to do anything that one time.

It's no different than Sorbet almost killing Goku with a laser shot while Goku was focued elswhere. Being off-guard does matter a lot in a battle setting.