Has Toriyama lost his touch?

[SupremeKai25]

You acknowledge that he was a comic relief character but then you disagree when I said he acted like a babysitter? You're contradicting yourself.

And you're strawmanning.

I was pointing out that you were downplaying the originality of that setup by referring to it as mere babysitting, not disagreeing that he was babysitting.

Okay so can you explain what was original about it?

[Majin Buu]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but....

Using Piccolo for comedy, and as the straight man in a comedy duo to boot.

Which I'd say was the most inspired use of him in a while.

[Cursed Lemon]

Taking one of the most distinguished combatants in the entire series and turning him into an errand boy whose sole purpose is to make this face :O is definitely original, because you have to be peerlessly checked out to write that lol

[nhienphan2808]

I view at he lost his touch somewhere during the original manga and in the 20 years with no "official" DB by him, in that he let too many people dictate and control and manipulate his content and characters. Now since 2013 though, while many people think Super is boring and repetitive, or not as good as Z, I just think that's he regaining his touch, his passion, his direction for his characters.

I dont view RoF as a dip in that process, since it's not even meant to be a whole movie. It's the second part in a trilogy of films that has WAY too long breaks between each part and that's the only downside i can find in his approach to writing. Because, the reason his own stuff doesnt seem interesting or good anymore is because in the 20 years and between 2015 and 2018, fans had been obsessing over every number of power level, every hair color, every line the characters could say, every direction DB could go, and made up their own stuff for it, including a whole anime and manga series. I seriously doubt many of us would have the same "booo" reaction to "simple, quick, boring" SSJG Red or Blue if they had been there right after Buu or EOZ and GT back in the 90s. A TOO LONG break, Time, is Toriyama's only weakness, the only thing i can say he lost his touch on. He's too lenient as an original creator. But after all, there's only so much you can do with a series that is supposed to be simple fun. After 20 years, his characters, written by his own hands, are still leagues more unique than every fan and Toei or Toyotaro concepts, tbh. That is HIS touch.

[Aim]

After the mess that is DragonBall Super you have to wonder if and when Toriyama lost his touch. Flanderization of characters, no sense of stakes or progression and weak cop-out endings (Resurrection F) are just a handful of the problems the current product has. I get why TOEI want his name involved with projects, since it makes it more "authentic" but it seems that it isn't synonymous with quality.
When did he lose his touch? Looking back, the Son Goku returns special was entertaining and felt like DragonBall but Battle of Gods was when quality started to dip. While still an entertaining movie, it felt like a step back.
Resurrection F was....well....a mess and from then on we saw sporadic highlights, mostly infused with nostalgia.

BoG was a pretty nice touch imo, I think the atmosphere ruins it, the designs, etc. RoF is terrible. Super is a mixed bag. I have absolutely no doubt it would have been better if Toriyama drew it. He actually understands the characters and remains relatively consistent such as not introducing fusion. It makes sense how Fusion Zamasu wouldn’t be as strong as what we saw, considering Zamasu wasn’t as strong as Son and the gang from the start. I think the Tournament of Power would have been interesting and far better executed than what Toyotaro did. I have a feeling he would have retconned the SSG becoming the base, but maybe he wouldn’t have. Getting rid of all the SS forms and only have SSGSS is appealing to me. Not a fan of 8 different transformations when we could have had “God-like Saiyan - SSGSS” instead of “Base - SS - SS2 - SS3 - SSG - SSGSS - SSGSS (Kaioken or complete or evolution) - UI Omen - UI Mastered (or Ultra Ego)”, it’s just really stupid and overkill now.

Overall the problem is Toei is garbage and Toyotaro isn’t up to the task of doing the manga himself.

[Jord]

After the mess that is DragonBall Super you have to wonder if and when Toriyama lost his touch. Flanderization of characters, no sense of stakes or progression and weak cop-out endings (Resurrection F) are just a handful of the problems the current product has. I get why TOEI want his name involved with projects, since it makes it more "authentic" but it seems that it isn't synonymous with quality.
When did he lose his touch? Looking back, the Son Goku returns special was entertaining and felt like DragonBall but Battle of Gods was when quality started to dip. While still an entertaining movie, it felt like a step back.
Resurrection F was....well....a mess and from then on we saw sporadic highlights, mostly infused with nostalgia.

BoG was a pretty nice touch imo, I think the atmosphere ruins it, the designs, etc. RoF is terrible. Super is a mixed bag. I have absolutely no doubt it would have been better if Toriyama drew it. He actually understands the characters and remains relatively consistent such as not introducing fusion. It makes sense how Fusion Zamasu wouldn’t be as strong as what we saw, considering Zamasu wasn’t as strong as Son and the gang from the start. I think the Tournament of Power would have been interesting and far better executed than what Toyotaro did. I have a feeling he would have retconned the SSG becoming the base, but maybe he wouldn’t have. Getting rid of all the SS forms and only have SSGSS is appealing to me. Not a fan of 8 different transformations when we could have had “God-like Saiyan - SSGSS” instead of “Base - SS - SS2 - SS3 - SSG - SSGSS - SSGSS (Kaioken or complete or evolution) - UI Omen - UI Mastered (or Ultra Ego)”, it’s just really stupid and overkill now.

Overall the problem is Toei is garbage and Toyotaro isn’t up to the task of doing the manga himself.

I did like BoG as well. Was a fun movie.
What's interesting about your post is that you say it would be better if Toriyama drew it but to me, the problem to me is more storyline-related than the actual drawings. Do you specifically dislike the way Toyotaro draws?

I agree on cutting down on transformation. The whole of DBZ had 3 mayor transformation. Super has just as many in less than half the number of episodes, with SSG immediately losing impact since they obtained SSGSS just a short while later.
The uniqueness of SSGSS also faded pretty quickly and it just became the base form, like how SSJ became basically the base (fighting) form. At least UI was treated like something new and special.

[Saiya6Cit]

Toriyama did not lose his touch, he just never had it.

Toriyama did never care much about dragon ball, mainly about Dr. Slump.


The best ideas such as Goku's hair style was not even his. After OG DB he had no story to tell, he was forced to continue the story because it was selling well and took inspiration from american comic in order to continue.

I forgive him for everything he has done with the franchise because I understand he has created something way bigger than him, and at this point it's not in his hands, similar to George Lucas...

[Kakarotto92]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but....

Using Piccolo for comedy, and as the straight man in a comedy duo to boot.

Which I'd say was the most inspired use of him in a while.

Agreed. Big Piccolo fan and I never had a problem with him in the Boo arc. If anything, that part of the arc is one of the reasons I wish we had a "Next Generation" series, with those three as the main characters (post-EoZ).

[Vijay]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but....

Using Piccolo for comedy, and as the straight man in a comedy duo to boot.

Which I'd say was the most inspired use of him in a while.

Agreed. Big Piccolo fan and I never had a problem with him in the Boo arc. If anything, that part of the arc is one of the reasons I wish we had a "Next Generation" series, with those three as the main characters (post-EoZ).

Finally, came across 2 ppl sharing similar thoughts on Piccolo-san

Surely would've liked him to have a fight or two in Majin Arc, but given the insane power-levels AT really went with unique direction & felt Piccolo was dope as mentor. If only he had disciplined the kids lil morehehe

Enjoyed his gags & as said, would've liked some sorta potential unlock/ritual was done to place him on top 5 fighters in EoZ

[PurestEvil]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but....

Using Piccolo for comedy, and as the straight man in a comedy duo to boot.

Which I'd say was the most inspired use of him in a while.

Agreed. Big Piccolo fan and I never had a problem with him in the Boo arc. If anything, that part of the arc is one of the reasons I wish we had a "Next Generation" series, with those three as the main characters (post-EoZ).

I didn't mind him taking the role of a mentor once again for Goten and Trunks. That "mentor" angle is one of my favorite traits of his character, personally.

[Hugo Boss]

Finally, came across 2 ppl sharing similar thoughts on Piccolo-san

From what I’m seeing here we are 5.

I think this is the best use of Piccolo in the current state of the story. I wouldn’t bring him to fight in major fights directly anymore, only for mentorship or comedy tone. But fighting in a movie with low stakes, I think it’s fine.

[capsulecorp]

Finally, came across 2 ppl sharing similar thoughts on Piccolo-san

From what I’m seeing here we are 5.

I think this is the best use of Piccolo in the current state of the story. I wouldn’t bring him to fight in major fights directly anymore, only for mentorship or comedy tone. But fighting in a movie with low stakes, I think it’s fine.

Piccolo was great as a villain, good as a fighter, and he's fun as support. One of the best things about DB is how characters change and, yes, sometimes get left behind. Sometimes fans fall so deeply in love with a character that they forget this simple truth...

[Vijay]

Finally, came across 2 ppl sharing similar thoughts on Piccolo-san

From what I’m seeing here we are 5.

I think this is the best use of Piccolo in the current state of the story. I wouldn’t bring him to fight in major fights directly anymore, only for mentorship or comedy tone. But fighting in a movie with low stakes, I think it’s fine.

Piccolo was great as a villain, good as a fighter, and he's fun as support. One of the best things about DB is how characters change and, yes, sometimes get left behind. Sometimes fans fall so deeply in love with a character that they forget this simple truth...

Its natural part of plot & character progression. As villains are built-up stronger than the next, the heroes must be the same. Those unable to keep up gotta stay sideline or serve as 2° backup protags till main heroes arrive. Piccolo bein Toriyama's fav character landed in a fun, yet dignified role as mentor in Majin Arc.

[MyVisionity]

It only works because it's the final arc. If the manga had continued, they would have needed to write Piccolo out most likely. Or at least keep him out of the main action.

[Aim]

After the mess that is DragonBall Super you have to wonder if and when Toriyama lost his touch. Flanderization of characters, no sense of stakes or progression and weak cop-out endings (Resurrection F) are just a handful of the problems the current product has. I get why TOEI want his name involved with projects, since it makes it more "authentic" but it seems that it isn't synonymous with quality.
When did he lose his touch? Looking back, the Son Goku returns special was entertaining and felt like DragonBall but Battle of Gods was when quality started to dip. While still an entertaining movie, it felt like a step back.
Resurrection F was....well....a mess and from then on we saw sporadic highlights, mostly infused with nostalgia.

BoG was a pretty nice touch imo, I think the atmosphere ruins it, the designs, etc. RoF is terrible. Super is a mixed bag. I have absolutely no doubt it would have been better if Toriyama drew it. He actually understands the characters and remains relatively consistent such as not introducing fusion. It makes sense how Fusion Zamasu wouldn’t be as strong as what we saw, considering Zamasu wasn’t as strong as Son and the gang from the start. I think the Tournament of Power would have been interesting and far better executed than what Toyotaro did. I have a feeling he would have retconned the SSG becoming the base, but maybe he wouldn’t have. Getting rid of all the SS forms and only have SSGSS is appealing to me. Not a fan of 8 different transformations when we could have had “God-like Saiyan - SSGSS” instead of “Base - SS - SS2 - SS3 - SSG - SSGSS - SSGSS (Kaioken or complete or evolution) - UI Omen - UI Mastered (or Ultra Ego)”, it’s just really stupid and overkill now.

Overall the problem is Toei is garbage and Toyotaro isn’t up to the task of doing the manga himself.

I did like BoG as well. Was a fun movie.
What's interesting about your post is that you say it would be better if Toriyama drew it but to me, the problem to me is more storyline-related than the actual drawings. Do you specifically dislike the way Toyotaro draws?

I agree on cutting down on transformation. The whole of DBZ had 3 mayor transformation. Super has just as many in less than half the number of episodes, with SSG immediately losing impact since they obtained SSGSS just a short while later.
The uniqueness of SSGSS also faded pretty quickly and it just became the base form, like how SSJ became basically the base (fighting) form. At least UI was treated like something new and special.

Yeah, I actually have a thread I want to post about it, comparing Toyotaro’s stiffness with Tadyoshi Yamamuro’s artwork, I have a feeling Toyotaro takes a lot of art inspiration from animators instead of the main creator, which explains his stiff hair with over detail. In terms of story I do think Toriyama would have given us something better in art form. I feel like he would have been able to express the dialogue and progression a lot better. The “Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan” tongue bite thing seems like a a bit of a Toriyama thing to me. I think Toriyama does a better job than people give him credit for in terms of pacing out a story and telling it. Whereas Toyotaro seems to jump around and over does it.

In regards to the forms, I used to think it wasn’t a good idea getting rid of SS2 and 3, but I actually quite like the idea as it simplifies it. In fact, I think this is such a Toriyama thing to do. I have a feeling he would have simplified it down to just 3 forms that get used in future like what we saw in Broli. So in the beginning I believe he may have stuck with the God-like Saiyan idea then he would have ditched it so he could use the gold form again, and just have the primary forms be SS - SSG - SSGSS - UI/Ego. I ultimately think the issue here is the multiple writers and the giving into fan service that ruins arcs like the Future Trunks arc (Super). Vegetto shouldn’t have returned and it felt like such a forced way of doing things. Having Vegeta and Son Goku fight Fused Zamasu in turns is a perfect setup for the Tournament of Power I think. They could learn a lot from that since them not knowing team work got Trunks’ timeline zapped.

I do know Toriyama isn’t great with stories and he does wing it most of the time, however that seems to be the spark to it all, it’s what gives the series his touch. So having go the way it’s been going has been weird compared to seeing it come directly from the creator himself. My distaste for Toyotaro is also because he doesn’t listen. Toriyama has said that he stuffs too much in at once and Toyotaro takes far too long to take it on board. Don’t get me started on SSGSS completed and Evolution, it’s just so overboard and then adapting UI Omen and then Ultra Ego, that insanely gross form that looks fan made is just… ugh.

[Vijay]

It only works because it's the final arc. If the manga had continued, they would have needed to write Piccolo out most likely. Or at least keep him out of the main action.

That's for nother debate. A smart author knows how & when to involve a key charcter. Piccolo was out for most part of Namek/Frieza Arc. Yet fused with Nail, battled Frieza, saved Goku & impacted the plot in more than few ways

Same in Android Arc.

If u think abt it, just where else could u go past Majin? U surpassed nature with science, then aliens, then again science finally resorting to demonic entities & godly creatures. How far could Toriyama push the envelope? Rildo, Doltacki, Luudu?

[DatHenson]

There's too many factors to say he lost his touch now. Super is similar to GT in external marring. Basically: He's like Seth MacFarlane for Family Guy at this point

That said...
-Never liked the humor that much. It was ok in Dball, but even it started to be too haphazard by the General Blue arc. Arale suddenly making him a massive joke that Goku struggled with was in poor taste, especially for how long that arc was. Buu Saga it just felt immature for Vegeta and Goku interactions to where the fanbase took that flanderizing in sooooo many fanfics for a while. Ironically they complain about Super Goku, so ^shrug^
-Whether or not one likes the skinnier post 2000s art, I think we can agree that creature design and steampunk design for tech has drastically dropped. I loved the 80-90s standalone art he did for dinos especially, and it's a shame to see he's doing less and less as time goes on. The art generally lost volume that even DBall had for characters (either pudgy baby fat in Dball and Saiyan saga, to muscle bros Namek-Buu), and addition to scrappyness being lost. It feels sanitized honestly...
-Although he hated Toei in making Goku "too do gooder-y", that doesn't excuse how Goku legitimately lost his animalistic anger and rushed reactions. Going from Goku immediately chasing after and killing Tamborine in Dball to Z where he lets Vegeta go shows some "maturity", but in Cell Saga beyond it's been obnoxiously pushed for a fight boner without much reason, and I can't blame Toei for that
-Making stuff up on the fly was always his weakness. From suddenly having Piccolo be tied the the Guardian for life making King Piccolo seem stupid for actions(or the Earth God notoriously unhelpful), to the whole Gero mess
-He noticeably makes Vegeta more aggressive in the recent movies, vs most of Super. I think he's still in the Cell Saga mindset for him instead of late Buu, but he always admitted to hating Vegeta, so eh. It did mean early Super was awkward for character dev though
-A lot of executive meddling in DBall kind of is why we have such a large cast of memorable characters. I sadly can see why so many fell to the obscure when he became more unhinged

Overall though, the biggest issue is power scaling getting to ridiculous levels already by mid Z. It stopped being spectacular to see terrain destroyed a long time ago as a result. The series honestly needed to stop that, but love for the franchise from fans and Toei was too much.

But despite all this, he created such a large part of our childhoods. Even if he can be stupid in writing, he was at least never boring

[ChronoTwigger]

Writing DragonBall has become too difficult.
Mind you have a lot of limits you cannot trespass.

• No one can die, but everyone should be put on the verge of dying
  Is action based, but not violent
  You cannot scare people
  You'll need a number of action scenes after x panels
  Goku have to be on the quest of obtaining a new power
  Vegeta have to be Vegeta
  Evil must be Evil, Goku have to be pure
  You cannot win by "smartness", but by trump cards.

If you'll add such limits to the fact the power level is practically out of measure (is too high to have any meaning), writing any story for Dragon Ball is now near impossible.
Most of fanfics simply rewrite some Z situation with different characters, or go beyond the established plot points adding violence, gore, smartness, or simply idealizing what they liked in the show, not understanding the source first.

Is not that Toriyama lost his touch, as someone competent said, Toriyama is Jaco, not DBS. Is that Dragon Ball is losing his touch, or soul, or meaning. If you change Goku with any other character, most of Super will suck atrociously as a stand alone show. Anyway, I cannot find any other way of have the story proceed if not by such premises. A deadly cat introduce Goku to the world of Gods, now roll on the random table to check the next enemy please.

The reason it's very easy: no one, not even Toriyama, will struggle if DBS fail, they are all salarymen that will not risk on their own, so they don't aim for quality to pay their bills. Just on delivery.
They had to be involved to the point of removing some of the limits, shifting tones and add some new plot point.
They will never do. And DB is trapped into a loop that make it the harder anime to write.

[BWri]

After the mess that is DragonBall Super you have to wonder if and when Toriyama lost his touch. Flanderization of characters, no sense of stakes or progression and weak cop-out endings (Resurrection F) are just a handful of the problems the current product has. I get why TOEI want his name involved with projects, since it makes it more "authentic" but it seems that it isn't synonymous with quality.
When did he lose his touch? Looking back, the Son Goku returns special was entertaining and felt like DragonBall but Battle of Gods was when quality started to dip. While still an entertaining movie, it felt like a step back.
Resurrection F was....well....a mess and from then on we saw sporadic highlights, mostly infused with nostalgia.

I just think editors like Kazuhiko Torishima helped guide the series in a more interesting direction. Without his touch, and with Dragon Ball's main focus these days as being a merchandise seller over anything else, the series is missing several components of what made it great so many decades ago.

And much of Toriyama-san's charm is lost without him personally drawing the series. That's my opinion anyway. Nothing against Toyotaro, but of course the series is going to feel like AT's touch is lost when he's not drawing it anymore. He was never really the ideas guy.

[ClutchBangstrip]

No he has not.