Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

The Potential Unleashed gives the writer leeway to just have the character be as strong as they want them to be. Piccolo might be a bit stronger than before, or could be above SSB Vegeta.
And nobody could be mad about it, after all current Piccolo is a fusion between a really strong dragon clan member and another super strong namekian.

The opposite as well, Piccolo has trained long enough, so perhaps he doesn't have that much room for growth. I guess we'll see just how much of a favourite character he is to Toriyama.

[picc]

Honest question regarding the manga.

Piccolo was below ssj1 in the U6 tournament. Given that he hasnt spent time in the time chamber, nor gone through tranformations, nor had angel/god training since then, what logical reason is there to conclude he is now blue tier or anywhere near it, considering thats a jump of possibly thousands of times?

Is that theory based strictly off him fighting alongside Gohan against Moro?

[ZombieVito]

The Potential Unleashed gives the writer leeway to just have the character be as strong as they want them to be. Piccolo might be a bit stronger than before, or could be above SSB Vegeta.
And nobody could be mad about it, after all current Piccolo is a fusion between a really strong dragon clan member and another super strong namekian.

The opposite as well, Piccolo has trained long enough, so perhaps he doesn't have that much room for growth. I guess we'll see just how much of a favourite character he is to Toriyama.

It would really suck if Piccolo gets ultimate and he just moves a few tiers up.

He should reach Blue tier. It kinda sucked that Piccolo was reduced to just charging his attack while Gohan does all the fighting during the real fight against the U6 Nameks. I really hope that doesn't happen again here.

[dragonball0900]

Honest question regarding the manga.

Piccolo was below ssj1 in the U6 tournament. Given that he hasnt spent time in the time chamber, nor gone through tranformations, nor had angel/god training since then, what logical reason is there to conclude he is now blue tier or anywhere near it, considering thats a jump of possibly thousands of times?

Is that theory based strictly off him fighting alongside Gohan against Moro?

I don't think he is Blue tier in the Moro Saga, but he is most likely somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier. He must be stronger than 17 (who in the manga was also only somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier) since he did better than him against Saganbo. He trained with Ultimate Gohan for 2 months, and remember that Piccolo is known to get big gains when he trains with someone far stronger than himself, look at the Android Saga 3 years of training for example.

Now, we don't know if the new movie is even going to take these gains into account given how it seems to ignore the Moro and Granolah events. He could most likely still be below SSJ1 tier without his Ultimate form just like in the ToP anime.

[Koitsukai]

Honest question regarding the manga.

Piccolo was below ssj1 in the U6 tournament. Given that he hasnt spent time in the time chamber, nor gone through tranformations, nor had angel/god training since then, what logical reason is there to conclude he is now blue tier or anywhere near it, considering thats a jump of possibly thousands of times?

Is that theory based strictly off him fighting alongside Gohan against Moro?

I don't remember if he trained with Gohan prior to the ToP, but he trained for 2 months before Moro arrived. So, the only big gains he could've gotten are from the Moro arc. And yes, people believe he is that strong based on their teamwork against Saganbo.

[KentMan]

They are sparring with Broly so that might be a good indicator of how Strong they’ve gotten in their base

I think it would be a short friendly sparing match to explain why they aren't on Earth to help. It might not be meant to give a clear indication of their power since Broly would be holding back like Whis when he spared with them in base.

I don’t think so I saw how muddy and dirty Broly looked plus we have the new chapters coming up that might answer our questions.

[ZombieVito]

Honest question regarding the manga.

Piccolo was below ssj1 in the U6 tournament. Given that he hasnt spent time in the time chamber, nor gone through tranformations, nor had angel/god training since then, what logical reason is there to conclude he is now blue tier or anywhere near it, considering thats a jump of possibly thousands of times?

Is that theory based strictly off him fighting alongside Gohan against Moro?

I don't remember if he trained with Gohan prior to the ToP, but he trained for 2 months before Moro arrived. So, the only big gains he could've gotten are from the Moro arc. And yes, people believe he is that strong based on their teamwork against Saganbo.

He trains with Gohan for less than a day after episode 88 and reaches base tier almost beating base Goku with his explosive wave.

[Koitsukai]

Honest question regarding the manga.

Piccolo was below ssj1 in the U6 tournament. Given that he hasnt spent time in the time chamber, nor gone through tranformations, nor had angel/god training since then, what logical reason is there to conclude he is now blue tier or anywhere near it, considering thats a jump of possibly thousands of times?

Is that theory based strictly off him fighting alongside Gohan against Moro?

I don't remember if he trained with Gohan prior to the ToP, but he trained for 2 months before Moro arrived. So, the only big gains he could've gotten are from the Moro arc. And yes, people believe he is that strong based on their teamwork against Saganbo.

He trains with Gohan for less than a day after episode 88 and reaches base tier almost beating base Goku with his explosive wave.

Yes, but he asked in the manga, I don't remember if that also happened in the manga. I think not.

But I do think Gohan was training ever since Trunks came back from the future, perhaps with Piccolo? or was that anime only?

[ZombieVito]

I don't remember if he trained with Gohan prior to the ToP, but he trained for 2 months before Moro arrived. So, the only big gains he could've gotten are from the Moro arc. And yes, people believe he is that strong based on their teamwork against Saganbo.

He trains with Gohan for less than a day after episode 88 and reaches base tier almost beating base Goku with his explosive wave.

Yes, but he asked in the manga, I don't remember if that also happened in the manga. I think not.

But I do think Gohan was training ever since Trunks came back from the future, perhaps with Piccolo? or was that anime only?

Oh in the manga its said that Piccolo only brought Gohan's battle sense up again.

Gohan does gravity training in the manga after RoF.

[picc]

I don't think he is Blue tier in the Moro Saga, but he is most likely somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier. He must be stronger than 17 (who in the manga was also only somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier) since he did better than him against Saganbo. He trained with Ultimate Gohan for 2 months, and remember that Piccolo is known to get big gains when he trains with someone far stronger than himself, look at the Android Saga 3 years of training for example.

Right. So I suppose I'm just confused. I went back and re-read the chapters to refresh, and the only thing Piccolo accomplished against Saganbo was to get beat up alongside Gohan. They both fired a large ki attack at him, which he no-sold and casually punched them away. He never affected him in any way. 17 didn't accomplish anything against him either, but at least blocked his punch. Mr. Satan did more to Cell than Piccolo did to Saganbo. The only time Piccolo actually physically touched Saganbo was to latch onto his arm in a gang-up, after which he was tossed away like a ragdoll.

Piccolo tandem attacked him with Gohan, to no effect, but that doesn't mean anything either. Krillin and Gohan tandem attacked final form Freeza with Vegeta and Piccolo. Krillin tandem attacked Nappa with Piccolo. Attacking an opponent alongside a stronger companion in DB is indication of little more than that you're a loyal friend.

So what am I missing? I didn't see anything that indicated he has to be between SSJ3 and SSJG. I didn't even see anything that indicates he has to be stronger than SSJ2. Piccolo is my favorite character in the series, so there's no one who wants him to be a powerhouse more than me. It seems like maybe people just want him to be stronger, so see things to confirm it, possibly?

Not accusing anyone of making things up, just trying to make sense of how something so seemingly innocuous as his performance vs Saganbo can be indicative of near God power. The fact he was below normal SSJ just a few arcs previously makes it all the more fantastical a leap. I can buy Piccolo getting big gains in a short amount of time... but not that big. He's not Freeza.

[picc]

Honest question regarding the manga.

Piccolo was below ssj1 in the U6 tournament. Given that he hasnt spent time in the time chamber, nor gone through tranformations, nor had angel/god training since then, what logical reason is there to conclude he is now blue tier or anywhere near it, considering thats a jump of possibly thousands of times?

Is that theory based strictly off him fighting alongside Gohan against Moro?

I don't remember if he trained with Gohan prior to the ToP, but he trained for 2 months before Moro arrived. So, the only big gains he could've gotten are from the Moro arc. And yes, people believe he is that strong based on their teamwork against Saganbo.

Yeah, so lets say he got nearly a year of training to be generous between the U6 tournament and the Moro saga.

He went from below SSJ, to SSJ3-God tier...?

I don't believe that in the slightest. He trained for a year in time chamber pre-Cell games and the difference was functionally irrelevant. Not going to buy he skipped multiple SSJ forms in less time than that.

[Koitsukai]

Honest question regarding the manga.

Piccolo was below ssj1 in the U6 tournament. Given that he hasnt spent time in the time chamber, nor gone through tranformations, nor had angel/god training since then, what logical reason is there to conclude he is now blue tier or anywhere near it, considering thats a jump of possibly thousands of times?

Is that theory based strictly off him fighting alongside Gohan against Moro?

I don't remember if he trained with Gohan prior to the ToP, but he trained for 2 months before Moro arrived. So, the only big gains he could've gotten are from the Moro arc. And yes, people believe he is that strong based on their teamwork against Saganbo.

Yeah, so lets say he got nearly a year of training to be generous between the U6 tournament and the Moro saga.

He went from below SSJ, to SSJ3-God tier...?

I don't believe that in the slightest. He trained for a year in time chamber pre-Cell games and the difference was functionally irrelevant. Not going to buy he skipped multiple SSJ forms in less time than that.

We need to take into account that he used to train alone, and we know that having a sparring partner provides greater results, but it is still a stretch.

I think this boost he is getting should've been after BoG or RoF, so whatever they had him do would not have required too much suspension of disbelief.
Too soon, to say, but maybe the manga and anime will use this in their favour to make past feats more believable?

[dragonball0900]

I don't think he is Blue tier in the Moro Saga, but he is most likely somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier. He must be stronger than 17 (who in the manga was also only somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier) since he did better than him against Saganbo. He trained with Ultimate Gohan for 2 months, and remember that Piccolo is known to get big gains when he trains with someone far stronger than himself, look at the Android Saga 3 years of training for example.

Right. So I suppose I'm just confused. I went back and re-read the chapters to refresh, and the only thing Piccolo accomplished against Saganbo was to get beat up alongside Gohan. They both fired a large ki attack at him, which he no-sold and casually punched them away. He never affected him in any way. 17 didn't accomplish anything against him either, but at least blocked his punch. Mr. Satan did more to Cell than Piccolo did to Saganbo. The only time Piccolo actually physically touched Saganbo was to latch onto his arm in a gang-up, after which he was tossed away like a ragdoll.

Piccolo tandem attacked him with Gohan, to no effect, but that doesn't mean anything either. Krillin and Gohan tandem attacked final form Freeza with Vegeta and Piccolo. Krillin tandem attacked Nappa with Piccolo. Attacking an opponent alongside a stronger companion in DB is indication of little more than that you're a loyal friend.

So what am I missing? I didn't see anything that indicated he has to be between SSJ3 and SSJG. I didn't even see anything that indicates he has to be stronger than SSJ2. Piccolo is my favorite character in the series, so there's no one who wants him to be a powerhouse more than me. It seems like maybe people just want him to be stronger, so see things to confirm it, possibly?

Not accusing anyone of making things up, just trying to make sense of how something so seemingly innocuous as his performance vs Saganbo can be indicative of near God power. The fact he was below normal SSJ just a few arcs previously makes it all the more fantastical a leap. I can buy Piccolo getting big gains in a short amount of time... but not that big. He's not Freeza.

I think it depends more on the perfomance of their fight.

Usually in a series like this, whenever everyone is attacking all at once against someone, the weaker ones are logically the ones that get beaten first, and the strongest ones are the last ones standing. Here, Jaco was taken down first, then the androids off screen, and then Piccolo and Gohan.

The manga ToP showed 17's feat of surpassing SSJ3 Goku, so Piccolo must be above whatever level 17 showed at that time. It wouldn't make sense for Toyotaro to make Piccolo still fighting alongside Gohan and not 17 if Piccolo wasn't stronger than him.

[Hugo Boss]

Not accusing anyone of making things up, just trying to make sense of how something so seemingly innocuous as his performance vs Saganbo can be indicative of near God power. The fact he was below normal SSJ just a few arcs previously makes it all the more fantastical a leap. I can buy Piccolo getting big gains in a short amount of time... but not that big. He's not Freeza.

The lack of a clearer nod, like the ones Gohan and 17 got, is what makes me feel the same as you. Goku only said his power was unrecognizable, but on practical terms it's impossible to make a comparison. Being very generous, I would place Piccolo in the same level of a SS1 in the manga, which is certainly capable of beating his last strong opponent, Frost.

[ZombieVito]

What about Piccolo's claim that he can kill Moro if he self destructs?

[picc]

We need to take into account that he used to train alone, and we know that having a sparring partner provides greater results, but it is still a stretch.

I think this boost he is getting should've been after BoG or RoF, so whatever they had him do would not have required too much suspension of disbelief.
Too soon, to say, but maybe the manga and anime will use this in their favour to make past feats more believable?

Totally with you on the last part. It's been hard seeing him fade into irrelevance and just be a tag team support for Gohan. Literally hurt me to see him struggle to fight a guy Vegeta destroyed with a defunct and irrelevant SSJ form in the U6 tournament.

We've all been clamoring for a "Namekian God" ritual so its funny that this Saichoro-esque potential powerup was right in front of us the whole time and not many people thought about it. I can't wait for this movie so he can be back playing with the big boys again. Him being equal to Ultimate Gohan would be perfect. Relevant again, but not unbelievably peers to Goku and Vegeta.

As far as his training goes, I just assume he's always training, so when it's suggested he did a little time with Gohan and now he's Android 17 tier, its even more confusing. Its basically asking to buy he doesn't train unless we're explicitly told he has, and when he does, he somehow multiples his power level by thousands in months despite never showing those kind of Freeza-esque gains throughout the entirety of DB.

I just read and re-read the Moro fight, and his battle along Gohan against 7-3 and Saganbo, and nothing he did would require more power than he had in the U6 tournament. Giving Gohan energy pads to jump on, surrounding Gohan's Masenko with a SBC, being no sold by Saganbo and then being tossed away like a ragdoll...

Even blocking his punch like 17 did would have been more of a feat.

Obviously Piccolo has grown more powerful, but again, the leap from even regular SSJ to just SSJ2 is enormous. Let alone SSJ3, which Goku took 7 years to achieve after dying. And then near God, which makes SSJ3 fodder...

There isn't any amount of creative interpretation from that Saganbo fight that would make a leap that big, that quickly, make sense. Just my opinion. Again, not accusing anyone of anything, I think all interpretations have been honest. I just don't see it.

[picc]

I don't think he is Blue tier in the Moro Saga, but he is most likely somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier. He must be stronger than 17 (who in the manga was also only somewhere in the huge gap between SSJ3 to SSG tier) since he did better than him against Saganbo. He trained with Ultimate Gohan for 2 months, and remember that Piccolo is known to get big gains when he trains with someone far stronger than himself, look at the Android Saga 3 years of training for example.

Right. So I suppose I'm just confused. I went back and re-read the chapters to refresh, and the only thing Piccolo accomplished against Saganbo was to get beat up alongside Gohan. They both fired a large ki attack at him, which he no-sold and casually punched them away. He never affected him in any way. 17 didn't accomplish anything against him either, but at least blocked his punch. Mr. Satan did more to Cell than Piccolo did to Saganbo. The only time Piccolo actually physically touched Saganbo was to latch onto his arm in a gang-up, after which he was tossed away like a ragdoll.

Piccolo tandem attacked him with Gohan, to no effect, but that doesn't mean anything either. Krillin and Gohan tandem attacked final form Freeza with Vegeta and Piccolo. Krillin tandem attacked Nappa with Piccolo. Attacking an opponent alongside a stronger companion in DB is indication of little more than that you're a loyal friend.

So what am I missing? I didn't see anything that indicated he has to be between SSJ3 and SSJG. I didn't even see anything that indicates he has to be stronger than SSJ2. Piccolo is my favorite character in the series, so there's no one who wants him to be a powerhouse more than me. It seems like maybe people just want him to be stronger, so see things to confirm it, possibly?

Not accusing anyone of making things up, just trying to make sense of how something so seemingly innocuous as his performance vs Saganbo can be indicative of near God power. The fact he was below normal SSJ just a few arcs previously makes it all the more fantastical a leap. I can buy Piccolo getting big gains in a short amount of time... but not that big. He's not Freeza.

I think it depends more on the perfomance of their fight.

Usually in a series like this, whenever everyone is attacking all at once against someone, the weaker ones are logically the ones that get beaten first, and the strongest ones are the last ones standing. Here, Jaco was taken down first, then the androids off screen, and then Piccolo and Gohan.

The manga ToP showed 17's feat of surpassing SSJ3 Goku, so Piccolo must be above whatever level 17 showed at that time. It wouldn't make sense for Toyotaro to make Piccolo still fighting alongside Gohan and not 17 if Piccolo wasn't stronger than him.

Piccolo merely standing next to Gohan while 17 attacks with 18 isnt particularly damning evidence though. And, for example, when Vegeta, piccolo, gohan, and krillin attacked final form freeza, Freeza went after Gohan first despite him being the third strongest.

Again, there isn't really a rule about people needing to be a certain strength to fight alongside other powerful opponents. It happens all the time in DB. Piccolo and Gohan being so close personally actually makes it even less evidential that he needs to fulfill a power requirement to assist him. What else would he do? He fought alongside him in the ToP too, and we all know he was exponentially weaker than him there.

[picc]

Not accusing anyone of making things up, just trying to make sense of how something so seemingly innocuous as his performance vs Saganbo can be indicative of near God power. The fact he was below normal SSJ just a few arcs previously makes it all the more fantastical a leap. I can buy Piccolo getting big gains in a short amount of time... but not that big. He's not Freeza.

The lack of a clearer nod, like the ones Gohan and 17 got, is what makes me feel the same as you. Goku only said his power was unrecognizable, but on practical terms it's impossible to make a comparison. Being very generous, I would place Piccolo in the same level of a SS1 in the manga, which is certainly capable of beating his last strong opponent, Frost.

I felt I was being generous by placing him in SSJ2 range. But yes, even that would require a large leap -- one that would invite comment from Goku (or anyone else) since its far above what he was before.

Basically, there's nothing he did against Saganbo or 7-3 that would require more power than he had in the U6 arc. We only have extremely generous inferences from people based on DB tropes that aren't really accurate once you go back and examine the rest of the series.

Again, obviously he's more powerful than he was then. But the kind of gains we're talking about have only been achieved by Freeza, and it was made a big deal of when it was revealed. We have plenty of precedent for what kind of gains Piccolo makes from training, and it ain't this.

Piccolo being SSJ2 range wouldn't make anything that happened vs Moro less believable if you examine those battles and don't want him to be God tier.

(which I do, btw. again, my favorite character.... hence my username)

[dragonball0900]

Right. So I suppose I'm just confused. I went back and re-read the chapters to refresh, and the only thing Piccolo accomplished against Saganbo was to get beat up alongside Gohan. They both fired a large ki attack at him, which he no-sold and casually punched them away. He never affected him in any way. 17 didn't accomplish anything against him either, but at least blocked his punch. Mr. Satan did more to Cell than Piccolo did to Saganbo. The only time Piccolo actually physically touched Saganbo was to latch onto his arm in a gang-up, after which he was tossed away like a ragdoll.

Piccolo tandem attacked him with Gohan, to no effect, but that doesn't mean anything either. Krillin and Gohan tandem attacked final form Freeza with Vegeta and Piccolo. Krillin tandem attacked Nappa with Piccolo. Attacking an opponent alongside a stronger companion in DB is indication of little more than that you're a loyal friend.

So what am I missing? I didn't see anything that indicated he has to be between SSJ3 and SSJG. I didn't even see anything that indicates he has to be stronger than SSJ2. Piccolo is my favorite character in the series, so there's no one who wants him to be a powerhouse more than me. It seems like maybe people just want him to be stronger, so see things to confirm it, possibly?

Not accusing anyone of making things up, just trying to make sense of how something so seemingly innocuous as his performance vs Saganbo can be indicative of near God power. The fact he was below normal SSJ just a few arcs previously makes it all the more fantastical a leap. I can buy Piccolo getting big gains in a short amount of time... but not that big. He's not Freeza.

I think it depends more on the perfomance of their fight.

Usually in a series like this, whenever everyone is attacking all at once against someone, the weaker ones are logically the ones that get beaten first, and the strongest ones are the last ones standing. Here, Jaco was taken down first, then the androids off screen, and then Piccolo and Gohan.

The manga ToP showed 17's feat of surpassing SSJ3 Goku, so Piccolo must be above whatever level 17 showed at that time. It wouldn't make sense for Toyotaro to make Piccolo still fighting alongside Gohan and not 17 if Piccolo wasn't stronger than him.

Piccolo merely standing next to Gohan while 17 attacks with 18 isnt particularly damning evidence though. And, for example, when Vegeta, piccolo, gohan, and krillin attacked final form freeza, Freeza went after Gohan first despite him being the third strongest.

Again, there isn't really a rule about people needing to be a certain strength to fight alongside other powerful opponents. It happens all the time in DB. Piccolo and Gohan being so close personally actually makes it even less evidential that he needs to fulfill a power requirement to assist him. What else would he do? He fought alongside him in the ToP too, and we all know he was exponentially weaker than him there.

This fight against Saganbo was mostly off screen (unlike the Frieza vs Gohan example), so it would only make sense that the story intention was that the weakest ones were taken out first and the strongest ones last. Gohan was also saved by Vegeta in the end against Frieza, so that example would no longer apply.

And Gohan was holding back when he fought alongside Piccolo in the ToP. He only used full power against Kefla, and then fought at full power against Saganbo too.

Again, I don't think he was SSG tier. But remember there's a huge gap above SSJ3 and below SSG that Moro Saga Piccolo could easily fall into. It's not far fetched to say he reached at least somewhere inside that huge bap. In the Android Saga, Piccolo got like 50 times stronger just with training with SSJ Goku. Training with a SSB tier Ultimate Gohan, his gains would easily be similar.

[picc]

I think it depends more on the perfomance of their fight.

Usually in a series like this, whenever everyone is attacking all at once against someone, the weaker ones are logically the ones that get beaten first, and the strongest ones are the last ones standing. Here, Jaco was taken down first, then the androids off screen, and then Piccolo and Gohan.

The manga ToP showed 17's feat of surpassing SSJ3 Goku, so Piccolo must be above whatever level 17 showed at that time. It wouldn't make sense for Toyotaro to make Piccolo still fighting alongside Gohan and not 17 if Piccolo wasn't stronger than him.

Piccolo merely standing next to Gohan while 17 attacks with 18 isnt particularly damning evidence though. And, for example, when Vegeta, piccolo, gohan, and krillin attacked final form freeza, Freeza went after Gohan first despite him being the third strongest.

Again, there isn't really a rule about people needing to be a certain strength to fight alongside other powerful opponents. It happens all the time in DB. Piccolo and Gohan being so close personally actually makes it even less evidential that he needs to fulfill a power requirement to assist him. What else would he do? He fought alongside him in the ToP too, and we all know he was exponentially weaker than him there.

This fight against Saganbo was mostly off screen (unlike the Frieza vs Gohan example), so it would only make sense that the story intention was that the weakest ones were taken out first and the strongest ones last. Gohan was also saved by Vegeta in the end against Frieza, so that example would no longer apply.

And Gohan was holding back when he fought alongside Piccolo in the ToP. He only used full power against Kefla, and then fought at full power against Saganbo too.

Again, I don't think he was SSG tier. But remember there's a huge gap above SSJ3 and below SSG that Moro Saga Piccolo could easily fall into. It's not far fetched to say he reached at least somewhere inside that huge bap. In the Android Saga, Piccolo got like 50 times stronger just with training with SSJ Goku. Training with a SSB tier Ultimate Gohan, his gains would easily be similar.

I disagree with pretty much all of this, but as a lot of your theory is feeling based, it doesn't seem we'll make much headway in reaching a conclusive agreement.

I think he's SSJ2 tier at best, but as it is, both of our opinions are pretty inconsequential, as to my chagrin, Piccolo is irrelevant no matter which of us is right.

Lets just hope we get some clear scaling from this new movie. Cant be too much to ask, can it?