Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

And they made Base Goku and Base Vegeta stronger than two Super Saiyans from Android Arc. Interesting.

I don't put much thought into those cards, but does that seem right. By now, at least they should be above that, comfortably, too.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, here's a bit of an idea to propose.

In Toriyama's 2 first movies, he envisioned Goku attaining the power of Super Saiyan God and becoming far stronger than ever before, as well as only needing to focus on his base and Super Saiyan forms.

In the third movie, there was once again a focus on base and Super Saiyan forms, along with their godly equivalents of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue.

Do you guys think that perhaps Toriyama stuck to some of the general ideas he had before about Goku and Vegeta just being a whole lot stronger overall in their normal forms?

[Koitsukai]

You know, here's a bit of an idea to propose.

In Toriyama's 2 first movies, he envisioned Goku attaining the power of Super Saiyan God and becoming far stronger than ever before, as well as only needing to focus on his base and Super Saiyan forms.

In the third movie, there was once again a focus on base and Super Saiyan forms, along with their godly equivalents of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue.

Do you guys think that perhaps Toriyama stuck to some of the general ideas he had before about Goku and Vegeta just being a whole lot stronger overall in their normal forms?

I don't think so.
He introduced SS forms in Broly, Goku even got riled up and went SS while reminiscing about the ToP. If we believe the SBG and Toriyama saying Goku would no longer need SS anymore are connected in any way, then it would contradict all of it.

Also, it would make Broly incredibly stronger, he starts tens of times stronger than SSG, just in his base form. If FF Freeza can take a one-hour beating from a Broly who stacks SS on top of his Ikari form, then he would be amazingly stronger too.

[dragonball0900]

I had seen other Wafer Cards sets, and they seem to place Base Saiyans from the ToP somewhere around the Android Saga tier. Base Vegeta against Jiren in Set 14 puts him at 5,000, just a fair bit below Future Androids 17 and 18 at 5,100, but stronger than SSJ Future Gohan at 4,900.

In the Broly Movie set, Base Goku and Vegeta are around 5,100, and here Base Goku and Vegeta are at 5,200, but then we have some problems like Base Piccolo's placement. Why is he lower than them? He is equal to Meta Cooler, yet we know he is far stronger after fusing with Kami and then training the RoSaT for the Cell Games. And we know from DBS that he was able to easily defeat SSJ2 Gohan, who should be around a similar level to SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games or the Buu Saga after his Z sword training.

According to these cards:

SSJ Future Gohan < Meta Cooler = Base Saiyans (ToP) = Piccolo (Super Hero) < Future Androids 17 and 18 = Base Saiyans (Broly) < Base Saiyans (Super Hero) < Bojack and SSJ2 Gohan

Yet Piccolo before training with Gohan for the ToP was portrayed as around or stronger than SSJ2 Gohan tier.

This is why we shouldn't really take these cards seriously when it comes to lower tier fighters (look at Goten and Trunks being weaker than even characters like a 4 years old Gohan from the Garlic Jr. Movie). I think they are slightly more accurate when it comes to stronger characters since they are more relevant (such as when they compare Jiren, Broly, Vegito or Gogeta, and in this case Ultimate Piccolo, Gohan and the Gammas).

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do we know for a fact that Dyspo > Kahseral? Looking back on their perfomances, Kahseral had the SSJ girls struggling pretty badly on a beam struggle, while Dyspo didn’t do anything to Base Freeza. Granted Kahseral had the help from other four Troopers, but they all appeared to be base level as well.

I’m thinking that other than Jiren and Toppo, the Pride Troopers are all roughly the same in terms of power level. It’s their special abilities that make the difference.

[ZombieVito]

Do we know for a fact that Dyspo > Kahseral? Looking back on their perfomances, Kahseral had the SSJ girls struggling pretty badly on a beam struggle, while Dyspo didn’t do anything to Base Freeza. Granted Kahseral had the help from other four Troopers, but they all appeared to be base level as well.

I’m thinking that other than Jiren and Toppo, the Pride Troopers are all roughly the same in terms of power level. It’s their special abilities that make the difference.

I think Dyspo was said to be the 3rd strongest of U11. I can't remember well.

I do remember 18 fighting Kahseral, didn't she? She evaded his attacks easily although she was with 17.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do we know for a fact that Dyspo > Kahseral? Looking back on their perfomances, Kahseral had the SSJ girls struggling pretty badly on a beam struggle, while Dyspo didn’t do anything to Base Freeza. Granted Kahseral had the help from other four Troopers, but they all appeared to be base level as well.

I’m thinking that other than Jiren and Toppo, the Pride Troopers are all roughly the same in terms of power level. It’s their special abilities that make the difference.

I think Dyspo was said to be the 3rd strongest of U11. I can't remember well.

I do remember 18 fighting Kahseral, didn't she? She evaded his attacks easily although she was with 17.

Found the quote:

Episode: 107
Time: 07:06-07:20
Context: Belmod tells Marcarita not to worry about their number of warriors
Belmod: "The remaining warriors, with Jiren at the top, are our universe's strongest three. It's not about numbers. Quality over quantity, right?"
Khai: "Plus Jiren and Toppo have almost no damage. We're probably at an advantage."

Guess either Freeza’s durability helped him a lot or Dyspo was pulling his punches. Someone here said earlier the fighters probably held back a lot to not accidentally kill folks and it makes sense. Plus Dyspo kinda looks like he’s toying with Freeza throughout 122-123 anyway. Just running circles around him and dragging him by the tail.

Yeah, 18 fought him with 17 a bit before she left to help Goku. Evading his attacks don’t mean much though when Kahseral is clearly slower than Dyspo.

[ZombieVito]

Do we know for a fact that Dyspo > Kahseral? Looking back on their perfomances, Kahseral had the SSJ girls struggling pretty badly on a beam struggle, while Dyspo didn’t do anything to Base Freeza. Granted Kahseral had the help from other four Troopers, but they all appeared to be base level as well.

I’m thinking that other than Jiren and Toppo, the Pride Troopers are all roughly the same in terms of power level. It’s their special abilities that make the difference.

I think Dyspo was said to be the 3rd strongest of U11. I can't remember well.

I do remember 18 fighting Kahseral, didn't she? She evaded his attacks easily although she was with 17.

Found the quote:

Episode: 107
Time: 07:06-07:20
Context: Belmod tells Marcarita not to worry about their number of warriors
Belmod: "The remaining warriors, with Jiren at the top, are our universe's strongest three. It's not about numbers. Quality over quantity, right?"
Khai: "Plus Jiren and Toppo have almost no damage. We're probably at an advantage."

Guess either Freeza’s durability helped him a lot or Dyspo was pulling his punches. Someone here said earlier the fighters probably held back a lot to not accidentally kill folks and it makes sense. Plus Dyspo kinda looks like he’s toying with Freeza throughout 122-123 anyway. Just running circles around him and dragging him by the tail.

Yeah, 18 fought him with 17 a bit before she left to help Goku. Evading his attacks don’t mean much though when Kahseral is clearly slower than Dyspo.

I don't think Dyspo pulled his punches.

I actually have him and FF Freeza at SS tier.

[Sora Saiyan]

So as I'm sure many have noticed Gas has shown a mftl+ feat in this chapter, its hard to quantify how fast he actually is, but we do have some statements from the series that can allow us to roughly work.. something out.. nothing amazing, but something.

So, we can first look to chapter 6 of Super to give us a number to use later. Here we find out that Jaco previously told Tights that he can travel to earth in 50 minutes in his brand new ship. The speed of his ship is proven once Tights gets in contact with Jaco; he makes it to earth in the time stated prior. For this number to be confirmed on a different day than when he made his initial statement to Tights would mean that he's stationed somewhere, and that place is the Galactic patrol HQ. This is confirmed later in the Moro arc where we see Bulma using Tights phone to get in contact with Jaco through the Galactic HQ communication station, confirming this is where tights contacts Jaco. This all but confirms that Jacos ship is stationed at Galactic HQ and that its 50 minutes from earth. This isn't to important but it helps us to work something out later.

Next we have a speed feat for Iricos ship. From Galactic Hq we see that they travel to new namek in 3 days at the max, as this is how long Goku and Vegeta were sleeping on namek, this is significant because we now have it established that Galactic HQ is relatively close to earth so this allows us to roughly gauage new nameks distance from earth. Okay, new namek is important for later, but next we move onto yadrat. Upon Vegeta demanding Irico to take him to Yadrat we find out that Yadrat is roughly one week from Namek. These are all just random numbers, but all we can ascertain so far is that Yardrat is further from new namek, than new namek from earth.
Okay, now the next part is where we have it confirmed that Yardrat is actually much further out than new namek from earth, here Irico tells Vegeta from Yardrat to earth would be at least ten days. Firstly its actually kind of crazy that all Toyos numbers are actually consistent here.. earth from GP HQ being 50 mins, GP HQ to new namek being 3 days, New namek to Yadrat being 7, and to run it all back would be at least 10 days (Yardrat to earth). The addition of all of the parts.
This is only useful because at this distance Vegeta can still sense Goku on earth once he reverts to his base form, and teleport to him.

Now onto the Gas feat. In the most recent chapter we have it confirmed that Goku can't teleport directly back to Planet Cereal from the planet Whis is on as Goku would've directly teleported back as Gas can't teleport to him at such a distance as confirmed by Whis. So if Goku can teleport at least as far as Vegeta then we have it confirmed that the distance between planet Cereal is greater than the distance between Yardrat and Earth.
This essentially means that Gas is at the absolute minimum 720x faster than Iricos ship. In actuality he is much much faster than that number.

[Thani]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

[TobyS]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

the distance is so massively variable though isn't it the universe is vast.

this is 20 minute flight time so you just need to be a species with 20 mins of lung capacity.

In fact cant you accelerate endlessly in space so it's less of a speed feet than terrestrial flight distance for distance?

With space ships the issue is stopping and staying on course but ki sensing and self propelled flight are fine for that.

[Sora Saiyan]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

In fact cant you accelerate endlessly in space so it's less of a speed feet than terrestrial flight distance for distance?

With space ships the issue is stopping and staying on course but ki sensing and self propelled flight are fine for that.

It's kind of hard to bring real words physics into a series where ftl travel is possible since it breaks the laws of physics as we know it.

[TobyS]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

In fact cant you accelerate endlessly in space so it's less of a speed feet than terrestrial flight distance for distance?

With space ships the issue is stopping and staying on course but ki sensing and self propelled flight are fine for that.

It's kind of hard to bring real words physics into a series where ftl travel is possible since it breaks the laws of physics as we know it.

I mean ki is inherently supernatural in terms of it already break real world physics biology rules so I feel the cat was out of the bag and it's probably consistent with itself. Do we have FTL ships in DB?

[Sora Saiyan]

In fact cant you accelerate endlessly in space so it's less of a speed feet than terrestrial flight distance for distance?

With space ships the issue is stopping and staying on course but ki sensing and self propelled flight are fine for that.

It's kind of hard to bring real words physics into a series where ftl travel is possible since it breaks the laws of physics as we know it.

I mean ki is inherently supernatural in terms of it already break real world physics biology rules so I feel the cat was out of the bag and it's probably consistent with itself. Do we have FTL ships in DB?

I just meant it's kind of hard to apply our understanding of how space works when DB is literally using a different set of physics since objects can move at light speed, which is impossible with our laws.

Also in answer to your question the ships in DB are MFTL. Gokus ship that went to namek is thousands of x ftl working off how quickly Kamis ship got to Jupiter. A trip to jupiter would take over 30 minutes when its at its closest to earth, and that ship appeared to do it almost instantly. The ship Goku used was 5 x faster than even that.
Another point to add is that the speed of the ships are actually much much faster than I had mentioned when coupled with knowing that Namek is outside of Kaios administrative area (as stated upon the "death" of Goku). Herms has stated it implies that if Namek was in the Northern area of the universe he would be able to do something. Herms also goes on to say that the point is a little obscured in the viz translation, with the explanation being shortened so that it's never specified that the location of Namek is what's outside Kaio's jurisdiction. This is fascinating with Db now as we have a universe with countless galaxies. So those ships travelled through many galaxies to end up in a place which is no longer in the Northern section.

If we were to believe that Iricos ship was as fast as either of those (which makes sense) we could then start to quantify Gas speed in this most recent chapter.

[Hugo Boss]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

And even crazier than that, Whis sneaked a communication device onto Goku without Gas noticing.

[ZombieVito]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

And even crazier than that, Whis sneaked a communication device onto Goku without Gas noticing.

At this rate the Angels are going to be like 100 times stronger than the Gods of Destruction.

[Gogeta_Blue]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

And even crazier than that, Whis sneaked a communication device onto Goku without Gas noticing.

At this rate the Angels are going to be like 100 times stronger than the Gods of Destruction.

I honestly think that's lowballing it. Beerus was less than 2x SSJG Goku in the BOG movie. That's been retconned to make the gap tens of thousands, if not millions of times. It's gotten ridiculous.

Whis was originally less than 2x Beerus. And while there's conflicting info on whether or not GoD-level power has truly been reached, the thought of Goku and Vegeta rivaling someone like Whis is so absurd that it's not even worth entertaining right now.

[ZombieVito]

And even crazier than that, Whis sneaked a communication device onto Goku without Gas noticing.

At this rate the Angels are going to be like 100 times stronger than the Gods of Destruction.

I honestly think that's lowballing it. Beerus was less than 2x SSJG Goku in the BOG movie. That's been retconned to make the gap tens of thousands, if not millions of times. It's gotten ridiculous.

Whis was originally less than 2x Beerus. And while there's conflicting info on whether or not GoD-level power has truly been reached, the thought of Goku and Vegeta rivaling someone like Whis is so absurd that it's not even worth entertaining right now.

Goku and Vegeta already surpassed one GoD (Belmond) at least.

[Koitsukai]

So, if Bardock is still a low class saiyan and is fighting Gas, who is still superior, how strong are they, really?

No scouter has been destroyed due to overload, 30 years later they still cannot go past 22,000, unless they are the newer models that the Ginyu have, that probably didn't exist back then, and if they did, no shitty ass saiyan is wearing them to conquer fucking Cereal-sei.

So, what? Gas 8,000? 10,000? 5,000? and Bardock somewhere between 1,000 and 5,000? Gas thinks Bardock isn't a low level saiyan based on his skills. So Bardock is Nappa level by now? the gap shouldn't be that much, considering he somehow managed to overcome it.

[Thani]

I just find it interesting that Gas is the first character since Jiren to pull off the "traveling through space without a spaceship" thing. And people (in-universe) are still impressed by the feat.

And even crazier than that, Whis sneaked a communication device onto Goku without Gas noticing.

Gotta love Whis hahaha

So, if Bardock is still a low class saiyan and is fighting Gas, who is still superior, how strong are they, really?

No scouter has been destroyed due to overload, 30 years later they still cannot go past 22,000, unless they are the newer models that the Ginyu have, that probably didn't exist back then, and if they did, no shitty ass saiyan is wearing them to conquer fucking Cereal-sei.

So, what? Gas 8,000? 10,000? 5,000? and Bardock somewhere between 1,000 and 5,000? Gas thinks Bardock isn't a low level saiyan based on his skills. So Bardock is Nappa level by now? the gap shouldn't be that much, considering he somehow managed to overcome it.

Bardock is basically a really strong low class, the closest one can be to middle class, as per Toriyama. So he's on the 3000~5000 range at best.

Gas should be like 8000. It's basically Goku vs Nappa all over again, with Nappa being unable to defeat Goku but still capable of hanging there.

That said, power levels are bullshit and aren't reliable anyway. Whatever way Bardock finds to defeat Gas, I'll be most pleased.