Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

In regards to the discussion about Frieza's strength compared to the humans, I don't think the humans being much weaker than Base Goku is evidence of that claim. The manga doesn't make any comparison between Base Goku and Frieza. The only comparison Beerus makes between Goku and Frieza is once Goku enters Super Saiyan 2 in which he confirms that Goku was stronger than Frieza. This means that Beerus was suspicious about Goku's ability to defeat Frieza prior to Super Saiyan 2 which is blatantly false given that AT recognizes SSJ Goku as being superior to Frieza, Cell, and Kid Buu given what is shown prior to Beerus' visit.

Much like was the case with the anime, I would assume that Beerus is prodding Goku and merely taunting him so that Goku would use more of his power. The context behind Beerus' visit is so that he can obtain information on the Super Saiyan God. Unlike the anime, Beerus isn't privy to Goku not being a Super Saiyan God, so he was perfectly in reason to mock Goku's own limits so that Goku would eventually transform into the Super Saiyan God that he was looking for. I believe this was the case in the anime as well despite Beerus knowing about Goku not being Super Saiyan God beforehand. After all, Beerus knew Goku was hiding more power when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku so he wanted to see Goku's limits.

In regards to Saganbo, I don't think Saganbo's assertion is necessarily indicative of inferiority. Yuzun is blatantly described as one of Saganbo's henchmen. In fact, the reputation of the Galactic Patrol prisoners' is always linked to Saganbo when Toyotaro introduces them to us. Saganbo should still be stronger than him. He simply couldn't believe that there was someone in the universe that could defeat Yuzun in the same way that Beerus couldn't believe that someone was powerful enough to defeat Frieza let alone them being a Saiyan.

[Koitsukai]

I believe the notion of the humans being way stronger and Freeza being fodder-ish as Z went by comes from the anime. We had Yamcha, Ten and Chaozu defeating the Ginyu force, then Krilin was dodging and headbutting 1st form Cell, preventing him from absorbing a family. Yamcha and Krilin later on fight Kid Buu, with a Kienzan being too fast for Buu to dodge.

There's nothing, absolutely nothing implying the humans or the base saiyans had surpassed Freeza, aside of fans wanting it to be that way. And then you get BoG's statement and that notion goes completely out the window.

[TobyS]

In regards to the discussion about Frieza's strength compared to the humans, I don't think the humans being much weaker than Base Goku is evidence of that claim. The manga doesn't make any comparison between Base Goku and Frieza. The only comparison Beerus makes between Goku and Frieza is once Goku enters Super Saiyan 2 in which he confirms that Goku was stronger than Frieza. This means that Beerus was suspicious about Goku's ability to defeat Frieza prior to Super Saiyan 2 which is blatantly false given that AT recognizes SSJ Goku as being superior to Frieza, Cell, and Kid Buu given what is shown prior to Beerus' visit.

Much like was the case with the anime, I would assume that Beerus is prodding Goku and merely taunting him so that Goku would use more of his power. The context behind Beerus' visit is so that he can obtain information on the Super Saiyan God. Unlike the anime, Beerus isn't privy to Goku not being a Super Saiyan God, so he was perfectly in reason to mock Goku's own limits so that Goku would eventually transform into the Super Saiyan God that he was looking for. I believe this was the case in the anime as well despite Beerus knowing about Goku not being Super Saiyan God beforehand. After all, Beerus knew Goku was hiding more power when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku so he wanted to see Goku's limits.

In regards to Saganbo, I don't think Saganbo's assertion is necessarily indicative of inferiority. Yuzun is blatantly described as one of Saganbo's henchmen. In fact, the reputation of the Galactic Patrol prisoners' is always linked to Saganbo when Toyotaro introduces them to us. Saganbo should still be stronger than him. He simply couldn't believe that there was someone in the universe that could defeat Yuzun in the same way that Beerus couldn't believe that someone was powerful enough to defeat Frieza let alone them being a Saiyan.

Beerus saying Goku could beat Freeza in the manga does take place while he's ss2 but that is not an implication that he could ONLY do it at that point.

He immediately after says it's "-no surprise- you could beat Freeza" as in it'd be easy in ss2. It doesn't preclude it being possible in ss1. He's not even saying it'd be less suprising in ss1.

The context he's saying this in is that he then says "beat freeza, but.... that seems to be the extent of your power" meaning Beerus doesn't know anyone stronger than Freeza that Goku could beat. He just waited to see what he assuemed Goku's max was before making a comparitive statement.

It's the BOG movie which flat out says Base = no. SS1 = "Ah yeah I get it".

The point is power levels are bullshit, the humans always made huge jumps with or without special methods and always were nipping at base gokus heels, Freeza used to just be an old static landmark you assume everyone leapfrogged eventually but bog clarified that.

There's no reason other than spite and saiyan wanking to assume they just arbitarily stop improving and cant even surpass the ginyus.

[Nistarkail]

I believe the notion of the humans being way stronger and Freeza being fodder-ish as Z went by comes from the anime. We had Yamcha, Ten and Chaozu defeating the Ginyu force, then Krilin was dodging and headbutting 1st form Cell, preventing him from absorbing a family. Yamcha and Krilin later on fight Kid Buu, with a Kienzan being too fast for Buu to dodge.

There's nothing, absolutely nothing implying the humans or the base saiyans had surpassed Freeza, aside of fans wanting it to be that way. And then you get BoG's statement and that notion goes completely out the window.

Fillers, regrettably.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If suggested by feats and statements then I’d have no doubt the humans have increased greatly. I don’t say feats are enough because they’re often vague and relative, like when they all dodged a punch from Magetta.

I have Tenshinhan and Kuririn peaking around 2nd form Freeza since the Cell Saga, while Yamcha peaks slightly above 1st form Freeza. I see no problem with someone placing them as low as below Saiyan Saga Vegeta though. They only have to be above Saiyan Saga Goku for me.

With the Base Saiyans. While the line is pretty straightforward in the movie, it’s contradicted by Goku and Vegeta being portrayed as the strongest Z Fighters. They can’t be above Base Gotenks but below Freeza at the same time. So I think Beerus was just taunting Goku into showing his forms, like Goku9001 said

I’s say that interpretation is supported the both the anime and the manga. He says beating Freeza is the best thing he could do, as if he couldn’t beat stronger people like Kaioshin or Majin Boo.

The anime also has a incredibly rusty Gohan, possibly below even his Boo Saga self, as the strongest Z Fighter. He says the guy who tanked a punch to the face from Piccolo is about as strong as he is, though I’m not sure if that’s his current power or his Ultimate power.

[Lionel]

I believe the notion of the humans being way stronger and Freeza being fodder-ish as Z went by comes from the anime. We had Yamcha, Ten and Chaozu defeating the Ginyu force, then Krilin was dodging and headbutting 1st form Cell, preventing him from absorbing a family. Yamcha and Krilin later on fight Kid Buu, with a Kienzan being too fast for Buu to dodge.

There's nothing, absolutely nothing implying the humans or the base saiyans had surpassed Freeza, aside of fans wanting it to be that way. And then you get BoG's statement and that notion goes completely out the window.

I agree. Although it's compounded by the lack of participation by the humans in any meaningful fights post Freeza until the Moro arc in the manga (not counting Frost easily dispensing with Tenshinhan and Krillin or Roshi's Ultra Instinct knockoff).

The only snippits you could maybe point to as some kind of feat are Tenshinhan evading Gero's Bionic Punisher, which later drew blood from a suppressed Piccolo, in tandem with Goku and the two remaining humans being considered usable resources of energy for Gero to improve himself enough so that he can defeat Vegeta. But in the latter situation the overwhelming majority of power was likely going to come from Piccolo and to a lesser extent Gohan. Krillin and Tenshinhan together may have supplied, at the most, something like 2-3% of the power Gero needed.

[Skar]

I would be surprised if the humans were intended to be stronger than Namek saga Freeza. In the Buu saga, Krillin was relieved that Goten and Trunks couldn't compete in the adult division so he has a better chance of winning any prize money. In RoF, Krillin seemed comparable to Jaco and far below a rusty base Gohan. Those wafer things for Super Hero have Krillin slightly above base Goten and Trunks but still weaker than base Gohan.

[Goku9001]

Beerus saying Goku could beat Freeza in the manga does take place while he's ss2 but that is not an implication that he could ONLY do it at that point.

He immediately after says it's "-no surprise- you could beat Freeza" as in it'd be easy in ss2. It doesn't preclude it being possible in ss1. He's not even saying it'd be less suprising in ss1.

The context he's saying this in is that he then says "beat freeza, but.... that seems to be the extent of your power" meaning Beerus doesn't know anyone stronger than Freeza that Goku could beat. He just waited to see what he assuemed Goku's max was before making a comparitive statement.

It's the BOG movie which flat out says Base = no. SS1 = "Ah yeah I get it".

The point is power levels are bullshit, the humans always made huge jumps with or without special methods and always were nipping at base gokus heels, Freeza used to just be an old static landmark you assume everyone leapfrogged eventually but bog clarified that.

There's no reason other than spite and saiyan wanking to assume they just arbitarily stop improving and cant even surpass the ginyus.

If Goku could definitively beat Frieza as a Super Saiyan, then Beerus would've remarked that Goku could have beaten Frieza because that confirms his own suspicions raised by Whis. Instead, Beerus only confirms his suspicions once Goku is a Super Saiyan 2. That in and of itself makes it clear that Beerus' statement is not meant to be a power statement since it is at odds with what we are shown prior.

The movie is no longer relevant in establishing concrete information in the anime and manga continuities other than serving as a template for the retellings to follow. The anime blatantly has Beerus trash talking SSJ Goku by suggesting that he could barely defeat Frieza. This is why context is very important otherwise we would be committing falsehoods such as that. That said, I've said my piece on the context behind Beerus' visit. In the manga, he blatantly provokes Goku by stating that Super Saiyan 2 is the extent of his power knowing that was not the case and then tells him to go Super Saiyan God after Goku goes Super Saiyan 3. All of Beerus' statements and actions were made so that he could meet a Super Saiyan God. The Frieza comparison is just there to mock Goku and provoke him into transforming.

I agree with your assessment of the humans. I don't think they were ever really that close to the Base Saiyans though. The Base Saiyans only considered Kaioshin and Kibito as being obstacles towards winning the tournament. Krillin who has been stated to be the strongest human, is a nonfactor.

[TobyS]

Well you can read it how you like but the SS2 thing is Beerus reserving his assessment of Gokus strength based on seeing what he thinks is Gokus max power. Not that he couldn't beat Freeza before.

You are taking the first sentence and ignoring the context of the second.

Regarding the humans and base goku. I'm well aware that as of the buu saga the gap is decently wide. However I'm saying fans used to think that both Goku and the humans could have surpassed Freeza but now we know neither is true.

[Goku9001]

Well you can read it how you like but the SS2 thing is Beerus reserving his assessment of Gokus strength based on seeing what he thinks is Gokus max power. Not that he couldn't beat Freeza before.

You are taking the first sentence and ignoring the context of the second.

Regarding the humans and base goku. I'm well aware that as of the buu saga the gap is decently wide. However I'm saying fans used to think that both Goku and the humans could have surpassed Freeza but now we know neither is true.

Beerus wants to confirm his suspicions by watching Goku fight. If those suspicions wasn't confirmed until Goku fights as a Super Saiyan 2, then it stands to reason that Beerus was at least uncertain as to whether or not SSJ Goku could defeat Frieza definitively. Therefore, while it's possible that SSJ Goku could defeat Frieza, Beerus wasn't entirely sure until Goku went Super Saiyan 2. Clearly, I don't think these are meant to be taken as power statements and we can't derive anything definitive on Base Goku's strength since Beerus never watched Base Goku fight in the manga anyways.

What's the first statement and what is the context of the 2nd statement? The context is quite clear as to why Beerus wants to fight Goku. He's less concerned on how Goku stacks up to Frieza and more interested in the Super Saiyan God. The anime quite explicitly has Beerus just trash talking Goku.

No, we actually don't. There's plenty of evidence that places the Base Saiyans beyond Frieza including the Daizenshuu which compares the Base Kids to Android 18. The movie is no longer relevant to the anime and manga so I'm not sure why you keep referencing that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Beerus wants to confirm his suspicions by watching Goku fight. If those suspicions wasn't confirmed until Goku fights as a Super Saiyan 2, then it stands to reason that Beerus was at least uncertain as to whether or not SSJ Goku could defeat Frieza definitively. Therefore, while it's possible that SSJ Goku could defeat Frieza, Beerus wasn't entirely sure until Goku went Super Saiyan 2. Clearly, I don't think these are meant to be taken as power statements and we can't derive anything definitive on Base Goku's strength since Beerus never watched Base Goku fight in the manga anyways.

I don’t think that’s bow you’re supposed to read it. When Goku goes SSJ1 Beerus asks Whis what is this, Whis explains and Whis says “so this is how you defeated Freeza”. Goku going SSJ2 at the same time is irrelevant because Beerus was talking about SSJ1.

[Hugo Boss]

I would be surprised if the humans were intended to be stronger than Namek saga Freeza. In the Buu saga, Krillin was relieved that Goten and Trunks couldn't compete in the adult division so he has a better chance of winning any prize money. In RoF, Krillin seemed comparable to Jaco and far below a rusty base Gohan. Those wafer things for Super Hero have Krillin slightly above base Goten and Trunks but still weaker than base Gohan.

For reference, Goku Awaking! set has Roshi and Tenshinhan as a team (4,000) comparatively stronger than Saiyan Arc Vegeta (3,400). That’s their Tournament of Power versions and the set was released on December 2017. In Goku vs. Jiren set, released on February 2018, Future Trunks (4,000) appears as strong as that team. So, you could assume Bandai had at that time each individual as weaker than Future Trunks when he first debuted in the story.

In another hand, Super Vol.1 set, released on May 2021, had Krillin (4,000) and Tenshinhan (4,300) pretty close to SS Vegeta (4,400), presumably on Cell Arc as Tenshinhan appears using shin kikoho.

Finally, Super Vol.3 set, released on Jan 2022, has Base Goku (4,200) stronger than 19 and 20 (3,600 and 3,700) and weaker than 17 and 18 (4,400 and 4,500). Base Goku from Battle of Gods era. Super Vol.4 set (date release on April 2022) has Krillin in the 3,200 range.

And that’s it. I don’t have a hard opinion on where the humans should fit in the power hierarchy, but perhaps they could challenge Namek Arc Freeza if they fight as a team.

Edit: I forgot to mention Super Vol.2 set, released on Setember 2021. There we have Nappa (3,100), Vegeta (3,400) and Goku (3,400) from Saiyan Arc. Goku and Vegeta, particularly on their kamehameha vs. garlic gun match. If we are supposed to read all Super volumes as they belong to the same continuity, (Police officer) Krillin is portrayed as stronger than Nappa and weaker than Vegeta. Take that as you will.

[Nistarkail]

I would be surprised if the humans were intended to be stronger than Namek saga Freeza. In the Buu saga, Krillin was relieved that Goten and Trunks couldn't compete in the adult division so he has a better chance of winning any prize money. In RoF, Krillin seemed comparable to Jaco and far below a rusty base Gohan. Those wafer things for Super Hero have Krillin slightly above base Goten and Trunks but still weaker than base Gohan.

Toriyama confirmed that Krillin is weaker than SSJ Goten and Trunks some interviews ago. I think also that in the battle with doped Yunba, he proved to be like their Base form with a surplus of battle maturity and technical skills. He also managed to take a sudden blow from the triple fusion convicts and spike his aura so strongly that Goku recognizes him. So I'm quite sure that at least he has 3.000.000 or even 5.000.000 (enough to deal C-19 and C-20).

There was also said that Jaco could be easily beaten by a base adult Saiyan, so his power level may be around 500-650 (which is impressive for standards for old DB Classic) but not beyond.

[Koitsukai]

Toriyama had Beerus address the matter, he literally inspects base Goku and concludes "I don't see how you could've done it like this, but I know you can transform". What else is there to it?

Specially when it does not contradict anything. There was never a panel, scene or comment implying base Goku was already strong enough to beat Freeza. He never beat, in his base form, somebody implied or confirmed to be on Freeza's level. Nothing prior disproves Beerus' assessment, so where's the beef with this straightforward statement?

[Lionel]

Toriyama had Beerus address the matter, he literally inspects base Goku and concludes "I don't see how you could've done it like this, but I know you can transform". What else is there to it?

Specially when it does not contradict anything. There was never a panel, scene or comment implying base Goku was already strong enough to beat Freeza. He never beat, in his base form, somebody implied or confirmed to be on Freeza's level. Nothing prior disproves Beerus' assessment, so where's the beef with this straightforward statement?

Sort of begs the question on why the Kaioken is presented as such a seldom known technique in peoples' minds. It was the brainchild of a Kai. Base Goku could have defeated Freeza using it anytime, I would say, after training in the ROSAT.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, people do tend to compare Beerus’ estimative to Ginyu’s, and Ginyu did fail to predict Kaio-Ken.

Goku by the start of Super is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks though, also straight from Beerus’ mouth. Even Perfect Cell should be child’s play for his lower forms, let alone Freeza.

[Goku9001]

Beerus wants to confirm his suspicions by watching Goku fight. If those suspicions wasn't confirmed until Goku fights as a Super Saiyan 2, then it stands to reason that Beerus was at least uncertain as to whether or not SSJ Goku could defeat Frieza definitively. Therefore, while it's possible that SSJ Goku could defeat Frieza, Beerus wasn't entirely sure until Goku went Super Saiyan 2. Clearly, I don't think these are meant to be taken as power statements and we can't derive anything definitive on Base Goku's strength since Beerus never watched Base Goku fight in the manga anyways.

I don’t think that’s bow you’re supposed to read it. When Goku goes SSJ1 Beerus asks Whis what is this, Whis explains and Whis says “so this is how you defeated Freeza”. Goku going SSJ2 at the same time is irrelevant because Beerus was talking about SSJ1.

Beerus doesn't make that statement until SSJ2 Goku repeatedly attacks him.

[Grimlock]

Toriyama had Beerus address the matter, he literally inspects base Goku and concludes "I don't see how you could've done it like this, but I know you can transform". What else is there to it?

What else is there is that Beerus makes such remark based on Whis literally showing him through a staff that Goku needed to transform to defeat Freeza before. Beerus wonders if all Saiyans shouldn't have black hair, to which Whis introduces him to Super Saiyan. That's when Beerus concludes Goku needed to transform (because he indeed needed it, at the time he fought Freeza for the first time).

Then, by "inspecting" Goku personally, he just states his conclusion aloud, based solely on what he saw through Whis' staff.

Specially when it does not contradict anything. There was never a panel, scene or comment implying base Goku was already strong enough to beat Freeza.

It does. By thinking that a base Goku, from AGE 778, can't beat Freeza, you are contradicting years of training and gains of power. It's like Goku didn't get stronger, his power got stuck in time. Which is obviously not true. Goku even gets upset upon learning Abo and Cabo were Freeza level. Everything Goku went through in the sixteen-year gap is your source.

You would also be on the notion that Beerus knows Goku at his full power in base form, which is, once again, not true. When Beerus "inspects" Goku, the former has never seen the latter using his full power. So his comment cannot be taken in the present tense, it must be past tense: "In the past, you weren't able to defeat Freeza in the state I'm seeing you right now, but I understood you can transform and that's how you were able to defeat him back then", or something like that.

He never beat, in his base form, somebody implied or confirmed to be on Freeza's level.

True, but only because everyone who appeared after Freeza was stronger than him. There are those two aforementioned individuals, Goku transforms into Super Saiyan to beat Aka, but one could make the argument it was overkill, seeing as Goku had no problem defeating him.

[Skar]

I never had an issue with base Goku being weaker than Freeza. It's a simple and straightforward series so it's unlikely the author would include a direct comparison intended to be wrong. During the Cell saga, they worked on improving SSJ and achieving new forms so there's not really a reason for base to powerup that much from a writing perspective. Base might've suffered diminshing returns after SSJ was unlocked and most gains went to their SSJ forms.

In the Buu saga, Vegeta wasn't sure Goku had surpassed him until he saw a glimpse of SSJ2 implying that base and SSJ Goku might not have powered up much since the Cell Games. Majin Vegeta and Goku were only confirmed to have surpassed Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan after they fully powered up in SSJ2 also implying that it wasn't clear in their lower forms.

[Grimlock]

It's precisely because the series is simple and straightforward that as time goes by and as characters fight, they get stronger. Goku, after a decade and a half of getting stronger, isn't able to beat Freeza, that's the opposite of straightforward and simplicity. And it goes against what Dragon Ball has always established.

What Beerus did wasn't a comparison and he wasn't wrong either. That scene is Beerus understanding the situation, and his conclusion is right. In AGE 762, Goku couldn't beat Freeza in base form, he needed Super Saiyan. That's the Goku Beerus is referring to.

You seem to have this weird notion that the power of the transformations is separated/has no relation to the power of base form, when in reality, it's base form that dictates the power one will have when transformed. When the characters were mastering Super Saiyan, they were at the same time getting stronger, because they were fighting/training as well. Characters (mostly Saiyans) in Dragon Ball get stronger when fighting and they always come out stronger (in relation to themselves from before the battle begins) after a fight, this has been established since the very beginning (and I think I recall Kuririn noting this). A Goku from right before fighting Cell is weaker than the Goku from after his battle against Cell. That's because he got stronger during the fight. A Goku from right before starting to train Gohan is weaker than the Goku from after training with Gohan.