Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

It's precisely because the series is simple and straightforward that as time goes by and as characters fight, they get stronger. Goku, after years of getting stronger, not being able to beat Freeza, that's the opposite of straightforward and simplicity.

They get stronger but it's only speculating how much stronger until we get confirmation. Taking a direct comparison at face value is as straightforward as it can get. We have another example of that in the Buu saga. We only get confirmation that Goku and Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan in SSJ2. Some fans believe SSJ1 Goku in the Buu saga surpassed Perfect Cell or Gohan from back then but that's based on their speculation on how much stronger the characters should've gotten not something stated in the story.

[Koitsukai]

Toriyama had Beerus address the matter, he literally inspects base Goku and concludes "I don't see how you could've done it like this, but I know you can transform". What else is there to it?

What else is there is that Beerus makes such remark based on Whis literally showing him through a staff that Goku needed to transform to defeat Freeza before. Beerus wonders if all Saiyans shouldn't have black hair, to which Whis introduces him to Super Saiyan. That's when Beerus concludes Goku needed to transform (because he indeed needed it, at the time he fought Freeza for the first time).

Then, by "inspecting" Goku personally, he just states his conclusion aloud, based solely on what he saw through Whis' staff.

Specially when it does not contradict anything. There was never a panel, scene or comment implying base Goku was already strong enough to beat Freeza.

It does. By thinking that a base Goku, from AGE 778, can't beat Freeza, you are contradicting years of training and gains of power. It's like Goku didn't get stronger, his power got stuck in time. Which is obviously not true. Goku even gets upset upon learning Abo and Cabo were Freeza level. Everything Goku went through in the sixteen-year gap is your source.

You would also be on the notion that Beerus knows Goku at his full power in base form, which is, once again, not true. When Beerus "inspects" Goku, the former has never seen the latter using his full power. So his comment cannot be taken in the present tense, it must be past tense: "In the past, you weren't able to defeat Freeza in the state I'm seeing you right now, but I understood you can transform and that's how you were able to defeat him back then", or something like that.

He never beat, in his base form, somebody implied or confirmed to be on Freeza's level.

True, but only because everyone who appeared after Freeza was stronger than him. There are those two aforementioned individuals, Goku transforms into Super Saiyan to beat Aka, but one could make the argument it was overkill, seeing as Goku had no problem defeating him.

1) yeah, no. What would be the point of Beerus talking about what Goku was able to do 10 years ago in base, when he already knows how he beat Freeza after watching it on TenshiTube?
He knows SS did the trick, he knows base wasn't enough back then, so he feels his biceps, he inspects him thoroughly and concludes this still isn't enough for Freeza.
The interpretation you are presenting would mean that Beerus was trying to learn what happened years ago... even though he already watched it?

The scene is simple, Beerus looks at this simpleton that killed Freeza and after a closer inspection, cannot believe he did it. If he was actually stronger than Freeza, then he would've said so instead of saying: "as you are now, you couldn't have defeated Freeza". Your interpretation requires a completely different follow up.

2) No, it does not contradict anything. It isn't black or white, his gains aren't ABOVE FREEZA or BELOW FREEZA.
You are making it look like Goku was 95M on Namek, but he was just 3M and Freeza was 120M. He had a lot of room left to grow and still be below Freeza, and because we are never told how much stronger he has gotten in base, nothing is contradicted.
The only thing contradicted is the fan assumption that Goku must've been above Freeza in his base, just because he trained a lot, got stronger and has several SS forms.

Finally, who says Beerus cannot tell how strong a ningen can be in a given state just by inspecting them? he is the Hakaishin, just like an arts dealer can look at a painting for 5 seconds and tell if it's a fake or not, why can't he look at a saiyan and say this is your limit as you are? Believe what you like, but if the strongest god looks at somebody and says you are not enough, I'm buying.

Not to mention that's the actual author speaking through Beerus' mouth. Toriyama isn't such a complex writer, if he says the sky looks blue, then the sky is blue, it's not a comment about how the sky looked 10 years ago or how it'll look tomorrow.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Whenever the debate comes up about Freeza and how Goku compares to him as of BoG, I always refer people to a basic question:

"How much stronger does Super Saiyan make Goku?"

We have official in-universe numbers and multipliers from that period, so the question then becomes figuring out how our characters figure into all of that. We know that Super Saiyan ended up putting Goku over Freeza's absolute full power in a way even his Kaioken x20 didn't against half of Freeza's power.

Now unless that changed, it should still be better than Kaioken x20, right? Which means you have the gap between 3 million and 120 million to cover in the 14 years in-universe that passed between then and BoG. You gotta question if Goku leapfrogging that 40 times gap is possible.

[Skar]

I think it comes down to fans assuming characters grew way stronger than intended. Video games and supplementary material are never as inflated as fanmade PL lists. DBZ Kakarot had the Saiyans grow stronger in base but I think they were all still less than 10 million in the Buu saga. I recall the highest "official" PL given in any magazine was Broly at 1.4 billion and Gogeta at 2.5 billion. No one has to believe these numbers but the point is that all official sources have the strongest DBZ characters in the low billions which would still put base Goku below Freeza.

[Cipher]

I’ve been over here for years assuming that the characters all peak, sans transformations and exceptional circumstances, around the Android arc, which seems very much like something the original series always implied.

Always figured they could marginally improve at that point, but that the big leaps under normal circumstances were done.

[Grimlock]

not something stated in the story.

I gotta say, reading something like this is very funny from where I'm sitting. When I come to this thread, I find people discussing based on some pogs/tazos/stickers or whatever the heck those promotional images with completely random numbers attached to them to determine a character's power are, and seemingly placing some level of importance to those things.

Tell me, does it need to be "stated in the story" or just in cards/tazos is enough?

He knows SS did the trick, he knows base wasn't enough back then, so he feels his biceps, he inspects him thoroughly and concludes this still isn't enough for Freeza.

It seems you're placing emphasis on "Beerus' inspection", as if it was possible to judge one's power based on that and the way it was done. I put such words in quotation because, well, it can't. Beerus "inspecting" Goku's body was merely a gag moment, if anything at all.

If he was actually stronger than Freeza, then he would've said so instead of saying: "as you are now, you couldn't have defeated Freeza".

He wouldn't, as Beerus has no idea of his power. But I do acknowledge that the way it was phrased is ambiguous. One can interpret as if Beerus is stating that that present Goku, standing right in front of him that went through so much after Freeza saga, can't beat Freeza.

You are making it look like Goku was 95M on Namek, but he was just 3M and Freeza was 120M.

No, I'm explicitly saying Goku no longer is "3M" by the time Movie 14 happens, and he surpassed Freeza's "120M" at some point prior to Tarble OVA.

(By the way, didn't those numbers come from guidebooks? I seem to recall you being against guidebook's information or was it just about the guidebook's multipliers? Can't remember).

The only thing contradicted is the fan assumption that Goku must've been above Freeza in his base, just because he trained a lot

That certainly means we didn't watch/read the same Dragon Ball, because training and gaining more power is precisely the way to surpass someone else. What Dragon Ball did you watch/read? Is there one in which training a lot means you can't/won't get stronger than someone at some point?

Finally, who says Beerus cannot tell how strong a ningen can be in a given state just by inspecting them? he is the Hakaishin, just like an arts dealer can look at a painting for 5 seconds and tell if it's a fake or not, why can't he look at a saiyan and say this is your limit as you are?

I love your comparison, but unfortunately that really isn't how things work and it's not quite as simple as your comparison makes it to be. Though I wouldn't be able to explain to you why an individual can't measure someone else's power without even fighting them (and without a scouter, obviously...). That has always been clear enough to me that I thought it should be clear to everyone else too.

Believe what you like, but if the strongest god looks at somebody and says you are not enough, I'm buying.

Once again you're putting emphasis on something that shouldn't be given that emphasis, being a god in Dragon Ball is not much a big deal, it's a title. And even a God of Destruction seems to be just a random dude chosen to attain such title. If it was an angel, you would probably have a point, as they seem different and may be able to tell better these kinds of things.

[Goku9001]

I don't put stock in Beerus' assessment of Base Goku's strength since the context behind Beerus assessing Goku is to compel him to eventually transform into a Super Saiyan God. The fact that the comparison between Base Goku and Frieza is never present in both the manga and anime would suggest that either Toriyama backed out of that comparison realizing how silly it was or felt like it misleading the viewer into believing something that wasn't actually true. It is evident in both the anime and manga that Beerus was prodding Goku. In the anime, he explicitly trash talks Goku as a Super Saiyan. In the manga, he clearly suggests beating Frieza is the extent of his power as a Super Saiyan 2 despite contradictory information being shown prior. He eventually tells Goku to transform into a Super Saiyan God after seeing him transform into Super Saiyan 3.

Relying on outdated information that is no longer present in the two continuities that Toriyama is focused on is disingenuous. Passing it off as a fact because there hasn't been any information contradicting that is also disingenous. The Daizenshuu explicitly places the Base Kids on par with Android 18. If that isn't enough, the Base Saiyans aren't even concerned about competing in the Budokai knowing Piccolo and Android 18 were also there is also telling. There is enough information that tells us that Beerus' assessment in the movie contradicts series if we take it at face-value.

The comparison isn't even relevant anyways since Toriyama doubled down on it supposedly so I wouldn't use that as concrete evidence.

[Skar]

I gotta say, reading something like this is very funny from where I'm sitting. When I come to this thread, I find people discussing based on some pogs/tazos/stickers or whatever the heck those promotional images with completely random numbers attached to them to determine a character's power are, and seemingly placing some level of importance to those things.

Tell me, does it need to be "stated in the story" or just in cards/tazos is enough?

I think you're missing my point. The story only has Beerus' line and no one questioning it. Those card things, video games, etc are supplementary but also support it. You can disregard all of those but it seems the only evidence that base Goku is above Freeza is assuming he should be because he grew stronger. In all official sources, he grows stronger but he's still below Freeza.

[dragonball0900]

I think this all depends how big the boosts of the Cell Saga were.

It also depends whether or not you have MSSJ as a same multiplier as an unmastered SSJ. Because if they are still the same boost, then Goku simply got magnitudes of times stronger inside the RoSaT, to the point that I think if we add the post Cell Games 7 years and post Buu Saga 4 years of training leading to BoG then it gives us a Goku that should clearly be able to potentially surpass Namek Saga Frieza.

The boosts in the Cell Saga were just too enormous to ignore, such as how Imperfect Cell was unharmed by Piccolo's biggest attack, or Android 16's punch (who was equal to Imperfect Cell) didn't even budge a suppressed Semi Perfect Cell, an ASSJ Vegeta clowning a Full Power Semi Perfect Cell, and then that same Vegeta not being able to do anything against a suppressed Perfect Cell, who was comparable to just a 50% MSSJ Goku.

The series does seem to imply how characters only rely on forms to surpass their limits. This is implied in the Cell Saga how all they needed to do is surpass the limits of the SSJ form, but their base forms wouldn't increase that much. Given how big the increases of strength were in the Cell Saga though (as I said in the paragraph above), I really think it makes more sense that Goku did no longer have the original x50 SSJ multiplier from the Frieza Saga after his RoSaT training, but could now be able to unleash even more power thanks to having mastered the SSJ form. Maybe the multiplier could be x100 or something? Who knows.

[Goku9001]

I think this all depends how big the boosts of the Cell Saga were.

It also depends whether or not you have MSSJ as a same multiplier as an unmastered SSJ. Because if they are still the same boost, then Goku simply got magnitudes of times stronger inside the RoSaT, to the point that I think if we add the post Cell Games 7 years and post Buu Saga 4 years of training leading to BoG then it gives us a Goku that should clearly be able to potentially surpass Namek Saga Frieza.

The boosts in the Cell Saga were just too enormous to ignore, such as how Imperfect Cell was unharmed by Piccolo's biggest attack, or Android 16's punch (who was equal to Imperfect Cell) didn't even budge a suppressed Semi Perfect Cell, an ASSJ Vegeta clowning a Full Power Semi Perfect Cell, and then that same Vegeta not being able to do anything against a suppressed Perfect Cell, who was comparable to just a 50% MSSJ Goku.

The series does seem to imply how characters only rely on forms to surpass their limits. This is implied in the Cell Saga how all they needed to do is surpass the limits of the SSJ form, but their base forms wouldn't increase that much. Given how big the increases of strength were in the Cell Saga though (as I said in the paragraph above), I really think it makes more sense that Goku did no longer have the original x50 SSJ multiplier from the Frieza Saga after his RoSaT training, but could now be able to unleash even more power thanks to having mastered the SSJ form. Maybe the multiplier could be x100 or something? Who knows.

I believe the promotional material for the Battle of Gods explicitly places Super Saiyan as a 50x multiplier so that's likely not the case when the movie was made.

[Hugo Boss]

I gotta say, reading something like this is very funny from where I'm sitting. When I come to this thread, I find people discussing based on some pogs/tazos/stickers or whatever the heck those promotional images with completely random numbers attached to them to determine a character's power are, and seemingly placing some level of importance to those things.

Tell me, does it need to be "stated in the story" or just in cards/tazos is enough?

When I started reading this, I thought you were talking about guidebooks’ numbers in general, Daizenshuu and such, but you seem to have a problem with the wafer stickers, for some reason. I guess it’s a pick and choose situation.

As per the discussion at hand, I take Beerus’ wording for granted. Goku had no qualms about rejecting the use of Super Saiyan when he fought Freeza in RoF, so if he had any rebuttal to Beerus there, he would have said it. I don’t think it’s necessary to rationalize his assessment any further than this. I would like to see the aforementioned evidence to contradict what Beerus said, if you don’t mind.

[Skar]

The series does seem to imply how characters only rely on forms to surpass their limits. This is implied in the Cell Saga how all they needed to do is surpass the limits of the SSJ form, but their base forms wouldn't increase that much. Given how big the increases of strength were in the Cell Saga though (as I said in the paragraph above), I really think it makes more sense that Goku did no longer have the original x50 SSJ multiplier from the Frieza Saga after his RoSaT training, but could now be able to unleash even more power thanks to having mastered the SSJ form. Maybe the multiplier could be x100 or something? Who knows.

I could see it going either way since Toriyama questioned the 50x multiplier so he might not have had exact numbers in mind when writing SSJ throughout the series. I think 50x could still work since official sources don't seem to inflate power levels and gaps between characters as much as fans do. Can anyone prove the power levels in DBZ Kakarot are wrong? Someone could argue they're feel those numbers are too low but that usually comes down to personal preference and not because they conflict with anything.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I also think it's important to remember the villains themselves.

How much stronger did they get compared to Freeza afterwards in the original run?

We have to remember that at his strongest, Freeza was hitting 120 million. With Super Saiyan in its debut being 50 times, we build up with that multiplier from that point onwards. We have to ask if the villains are getting that much stronger comparatively that we're looking at them being over 50 times stronger than Freeza was.

[ZombieVito]

I also think it's important to remember the villains themselves.

How much stronger did they get compared to Freeza afterwards in the original run?

We have to remember that at his strongest, Freeza was hitting 120 million. With Super Saiyan in its debut being 50 times, we build up with that multiplier from that point onwards. We have to ask if the villains are getting that much stronger comparatively that we're looking at them being over 50 times stronger than Freeza was.

Wasn't Goku impressed when Shin said that any Kaioshin could one shot Freeza?

[Koitsukai]

not something stated in the story.

I gotta say, reading something like this is very funny from where I'm sitting. When I come to this thread, I find people discussing based on some pogs/tazos/stickers or whatever the heck those promotional images with completely random numbers attached to them to determine a character's power are, and seemingly placing some level of importance to those things.

Tell me, does it need to be "stated in the story" or just in cards/tazos is enough?

He knows SS did the trick, he knows base wasn't enough back then, so he feels his biceps, he inspects him thoroughly and concludes this still isn't enough for Freeza.

It seems you're placing emphasis on "Beerus' inspection", as if it was possible to judge one's power based on that and the way it was done. I put such words in quotation because, well, it can't. Beerus "inspecting" Goku's body was merely a gag moment, if anything at all.

If he was actually stronger than Freeza, then he would've said so instead of saying: "as you are now, you couldn't have defeated Freeza".

He wouldn't, as Beerus has no idea of his power. But I do acknowledge that the way it was phrased is ambiguous. One can interpret as if Beerus is stating that that present Goku, standing right in front of him that went through so much after Freeza saga, can't beat Freeza.

You are making it look like Goku was 95M on Namek, but he was just 3M and Freeza was 120M.

No, I'm explicitly saying Goku no longer is "3M" by the time Movie 14 happens, and he surpassed Freeza's "120M" at some point prior to Tarble OVA.

(By the way, didn't those numbers come from guidebooks? I seem to recall you being against guidebook's information or was it just about the guidebook's multipliers? Can't remember).

The only thing contradicted is the fan assumption that Goku must've been above Freeza in his base, just because he trained a lot

That certainly means we didn't watch/read the same Dragon Ball, because training and gaining more power is precisely the way to surpass someone else. What Dragon Ball did you watch/read? Is there one in which training a lot means you can't/won't get stronger than someone at some point?

Finally, who says Beerus cannot tell how strong a ningen can be in a given state just by inspecting them? he is the Hakaishin, just like an arts dealer can look at a painting for 5 seconds and tell if it's a fake or not, why can't he look at a saiyan and say this is your limit as you are?

I love your comparison, but unfortunately that really isn't how things work and it's not quite as simple as your comparison makes it to be. Though I wouldn't be able to explain to you why an individual can't measure someone else's power without even fighting them (and without a scouter, obviously...). That has always been clear enough to me that I thought it should be clear to everyone else too.

Believe what you like, but if the strongest god looks at somebody and says you are not enough, I'm buying.

Once again you're putting emphasis on something that shouldn't be given that emphasis, being a god in Dragon Ball is not much a big deal, it's a title. And even a God of Destruction seems to be just a random dude chosen to attain such title. If it was an angel, you would probably have a point, as they seem different and may be able to tell better these kinds of things.

First of all, no disrespect, but can you stop it with these sentence analysis that make things unreadeable? I believe we are all capable enough to reply without making a mess of it.

Again, it's you who believes the strongest and most skilled character to date(not just holding a title, he literally sits on top of everybody in terms of fighting and skills, in his case it's earned, this is his element) cannot asses power of a shitty character by just inspecting them. And the extent of the inspection is supported by said character not contradicting the assessment. This is, after all, a cartoon, so real world or logical rules do not necessarily apply, I assume we all know this? if you see a dude inspecting another dude and saying you are THIS strong with no rebuttal, then that's the point the cartoon scene was trying to make.
I'd like something to disprove Beerus cannot do that, because that's what the scene implied. Also, an explanation to why Goku didn't respond with what you believe is the truth, we know he likes to showboat, as seen in that very same movie.

Tell me this, wouldn't Goku going from 3M to 100M* mean he got amazingly stronger, congruent with his Z growth and constant training? is that what you consider negligible gains? is that contradicting his training? even though by the android arc they were already training to improve their SS states, so much so he unlocked two more forms?

It seems your argument is based solely on the impossibility of training and not getting as strong as YOU believe they should be, based on your expectations of it, not really based on something tangible and from the show. Because we DO NOT have any indication of the extent of it.
Truth is, base form training was last seen before the androids appeared, and thinking he got 40x stronger when he stopped training in base form is your assumption, not a fact.

I would like some evidence that Goku is above 120M by the time BoG happens, clear cut, undisputable evidence, strong enough to compete with the strongest fighter in the universe, and perhaps multiverse, assessing Goku. Or to put it differently: strong enough to compete with Toriyama saying that through Beerus' words.


* No, I'm not against supplementary material as you are against those waffer cards. I just don't pray to them every night because they weren't thought up by the author, yet some do make sense so I do use them for comparison sake.

[Lionel]

Spoiler:

There is this scene from the first chapter of Super. Is Goku just transforming for the heck of it or is it because he feels it's necessary to defeat this mental projection of Freeza?

[Lorium_O]

Spoiler:

There is this scene from the first chapter of Super. Is Goku just transforming for the heck of it or is it because he feels it's necessary to defeat this mental projection of Freeza?

For the heck of it, I guess he just likes to create more breeze through the air or sumthn, ain't no way you can convince me that he actually needs to go ssj against Namek Saga version of white blob.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

And worth pointing out that’s not even 100% Freeza.

Given how he also one shots Cell and was about to fight Majin Boo, it must have been for the sake of it. Either that or Base Goku has barely improved since Namek.

[Skar]

I also think it's important to remember the villains themselves.

How much stronger did they get compared to Freeza afterwards in the original run?

We have to remember that at his strongest, Freeza was hitting 120 million. With Super Saiyan in its debut being 50 times, we build up with that multiplier from that point onwards. We have to ask if the villains are getting that much stronger comparatively that we're looking at them being over 50 times stronger than Freeza was.

There's really no way to know for sure to be honest. Fanmade lists range from Cell having a PL of a few billion to hundreds of billions. I think the only video game source had him at around 1 billion. I'm not sure if there's anything in the story that would conflict with that number.

[Lionel]

Spoiler:

There is this scene from the first chapter of Super. Is Goku just transforming for the heck of it or is it because he feels it's necessary to defeat this mental projection of Freeza?

For the heck of it, I guess he just likes to create more breeze through the air or sumthn, ain't no way you can convince me that he actually needs to go ssj against Namek Saga version of white blob.

And worth pointing out that’s not even 100% Freeza.

Given how he also one shots Cell and was about to fight Majin Boo, it must have been for the sake of it. Either that or Base Goku has barely improved since Namek.

Well it could have been 70% which we've heard Freeza admit to using without any noticeable visual changes in his appearance. For him that would equate to 84,000,000. At the time of the climax of the Freeza arc base Goku measured at a generally agreed upon number of 3,000,000. You could increase base Goku's strength twenty fold from the Freeza arc by the time of BOG and it would come out to less than Freeza's 70%.

Personally I hold the ROSAT in the Cell arc and, ironically, the transition from Buu to BOG where Goku made the most improvements in his overall strength prior to that mental image training not counting transformations.