Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

If you can understand the rule that the power of base form can't be separated from the power of the transformed state (and I'm glad you can), why would you need to witness a "definitive match" of the base form? I guess sometimes it does come down to "common sense", but it's not like something impossible to imagine.

And then again, we don't see base people defeating Android 18 or Piccolo because they are never put to face them.

I suppose you don’t need to see it, but quite honestly a change in status quo for me requires a little more exposition. For example, if one of Babidi’s warriors defeat Piccolo and then Vegeta or Goku defeat him without using Super Saiyan. That sounds better than applying common sense. After all, we are talking about leapfrogging a difference of at least 40-fold. It comes down to thinking if Super Saiyan would have increased over 40-fold at the time Goku fights Beerus.

To be fair, he did send the kids to fight and they didn't even bother transforming until Aka.

Yeah, but nothing was stopping the kids to use Super Saiyan or Fusion to beat an as-strong-as Freeza opponent. Remember Tarble also implied Goku wouldn’t be able to beat them in his normal form, but changed his idea after Goku showed him Super Saiyan. Seems like Aka or Abocado is the form in which they rival Freeza.

[Koitsukai]

I could write a small powerlevel list to illustrate it, if you don’t mind.

SS Goku vs. Freeza - 150M
SS Vegeta vs. 18 - 250M
Piccolo vs. 17 - 300M
Cell vs. 16 - 350M
Cell vs. Super Vegeta - 500M
Super Vegeta vs. Cell - 600M
SS Goku in front of Karin - 750M
SS Goku vs. Cell - 1,500M
SS Goku vs. Yakon - 2,000M
SS Goku vs. Beerus - 2,500M

In this list, Base Goku vs. Beerus would be at 50M. I took into account all the years that he trained until he fought Beerus.

It makes sense, and that's lowballing.
You could go nuts and have Goku vs Cell already at 50M, with 2,500 M. And the latter gains wouldn't be that much higher.
Or have Goku at 100M vs Beerus (5,000M), 3,000M vs Cell, 60M in base(20x stronger throughout the Cell arc without big zenkais), and still be below Freeza.

I just finished reading the Cell arc, and there are two times where Vegeta's base could've gotten a remark about how strong he's gotten, because he had gotten stronger overall. After the ROSAT, and when he arrives at the Cell Games arena on his own.
Nobody mentions any noticeable or significant gains on his base form, or expresses confidence in his new power, in fact Cell mocks Vegeta for never learning.
The implication is the gains were mostly for the SS and grade forms. And yeah, he could've been suppressed, but Geets likes to show his dick as much as possible, specially to Goku or enemies.
This might not mean much, but it's a clear opportunity to have the base forms expliclitly stated to be stronger than before, and yet it wasn't taken.

To be fair, he did send the kids to fight and they didn't even bother transforming until Aka.

Yeah, but nothing was stopping the kids to use Super Saiyan or Fusion to beat an as-strong-as Freeza opponent. Remember Tarble also implied Goku wouldn’t be able to beat them in his normal form, but changed his idea after Goku showed him Super Saiyan. Seems like Aka or Abocado is the form in which they rival Freeza.

Should be noted that Tarble had everything wrong. He thought Vegeta killed Freeza, he thought Goku, the one that actually did it, wasn't strong enough for Freeza. So if he says this one is as strong as Freeza, then I'd take it with a pinch of salt. How does he know Freeza's FP? he doesn't know anything about what happened on Namek lol.
They were still pretty strong, they ended up beating Goten and Trunks with certain techniques, but the source is still unreliable, they could've been 10 M and for Tarble that would still be as strong as Freeza, actually much much stronger than the Freeza he knew, or the Freeza that killed Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

Should be noted that Tarble had everything wrong. He thought Vegeta killed Freeza, he thought Goku, the one that actually did it, wasn't strong enough for Freeza. So if he says this one is as strong as Freeza, then I'd take it with a pinch of salt. How does he know Freeza's FP? he doesn't know anything about what happened on Namek lol.
They were still pretty strong, they ended up beating Goten and Trunks with certain techniques, but the source is still unreliable, they could've been 10 M and for Tarble that would still be as strong as Freeza, actually much much stronger than the Freeza he knew, or the Freeza that killed Vegeta.

Oh I remember right now, lol. But even so, I’ll give the benefit of suspension of disbelief in this case as well. After all, none has really disproven the notion that they were as strong as Freeza. The final words even addressed that they were pretty strong for Earth standards, but appeared too late and didn’t leave any impression on the cast’s memories, like Freeza did. The tidbits in which Tarble was misinformed were because he heard from some Namekians that probably heard from someone else and the story was slightly altered. It’s a different thing from seeing a footage, which makes the intel more precise.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We know they didn't surpass Piccolo and 18 by the cell games, and we know they don't get much stronger 7 years after Buu, there's no reason they would get a lot stronger Buu to Beerus.

The crazy gains don't start again till they Train with a fucking angel.

Beerus fights goku, he goes ss. Goes Ss2. Beerus thinks that's it and is like "yeah you are someone who could beat freeza but that's it" (Beerus seemingly doesn't know of anyone between Freeza and GoD's except maybe kaioshins but he's contextually talking about mortals/fighters here and hasn't even met shin yet.)

Not quite. Goku and Vegeta in Battle of Gods are stronger than Gohan and Gotenks. That’s a massive jump. SSJ2, maybe even 1 would smoke SSJ3 Goku from the Boo Saga.

I’m not sure why Kaioshin would be out of the comparison. He’s not like Whis who’s not allowed to fight mortals.

Beerus doesn’t know about Majin Boo, does he?

Yeah, but nothing was stopping the kids to use Super Saiyan or Fusion to beat an as-strong-as Freeza opponent. Remember Tarble also implied Goku wouldn’t be able to beat them in his normal form, but changed his idea after Goku showed him Super Saiyan. Seems like Aka or Abocado is the form in which they rival Freeza.

Yeah saying Aka is how they surpass Freeza is flat out wrong. Its more likely they’re being compared to 1st form Freeza since Tarble probably doesn’t know he can transform. Goku doesn’t know about any of Freeza’s forms other than his true one, so that’s probably what he has in mind. Meaning Abo and Kado are > 100% Freeza anyway, which ends up being literal child’s play for Goku.

I just finished reading the Cell arc, and there are two times where Vegeta's base could've gotten a remark about how strong he's gotten, because he had gotten stronger overall. After the ROSAT, and when he arrives at the Cell Games arena on his own.
Nobody mentions any noticeable or significant gains on his base form, or expresses confidence in his new power, in fact Cell mocks Vegeta for never learning.
The implication is the gains were mostly for the SS and grade forms. And yeah, he could've been suppressed, but Geets likes to show his dick as much as possible, specially to Goku or enemies.
This might not mean much, but it's a clear opportunity to have the base forms expliclitly stated to be stronger than before, and yet it wasn't taken.

Well, Cell does say Trunks has improved a lot in the future. He’s even sweating pretty hard, but he might be thinking of how strong SSJ Trunks is going to be.

[picc]

Very interesting debate. I'm now on the fence about the base saiyans having surpassed namek freeza where before i was pretty firmly in the “yes and by far” camp.

Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say anything about his base form there before Goku turns ssj.

And what do you all make of Vegeta and Goku being unconcerned about Piccolo and 18 in the buu saga world tournament and then goku staying conscious while kaioshin fainted at the elephant GoD roar before the TOP?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Very interesting debate. I'm now on the fence about the base saiyans having surpassed namek freeza where before i was pretty firmly in the “yes and by far” camp.

Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say anything about his base form there before Goku turns ssj.

And what do you all make of Vegeta and Goku being unconcerned about Piccolo and 18 in the buu saga world tournament and then goku staying conscious while kaioshin fainted at the elephant GoD roar before the TOP?

Beerus says Goku can’t beat Freeza as he is (i.e. in base form) in the movie and the anime and asks him to transform in the BoGs movie and DBS. The manga rushes over it, but the statement is still there after Goku goes SSJ. In the anime he even says SSJ Goku isn’t beating anyone stronger than Freeza, either a reference to the Kaioshins or suggesting SSJ Goku >= Freeza, more lies from Beerus either way.

I’ve seen people bring up the numbers inflation argument a lot, but it’s pretty pointless. The numbers are what they’re meant to be. If Roshi can be 1/3rd of Goku’s power level by the start of Z when he should logically be like 1% of Goku’s power, then Namek SSJ Goku can be like 1/30th or something of Boo Saga SSJ Goku. Not BoGs SSJ Goku though, but more on that later.

For me it’s all in the Boo Saga. Everything up to Boo’s revival shows the Saiyans as the strongest even without transformations:
- Saiyans agree to fight in base form in the Tournament and are more worried about fighting each other than 18 or Piccolo;
- Piccolo is lumped together with Kuririn as trash and not allowed to get in Babidi’s ship. Sure, Babidi and Dabra are full of shit when it comes to the Saiyans, but I think it’s clear AT considers Piccolo just a big green Kuririn now;
- Kaioshin needs help from the Base Saiyans to beat Babidi’s minions;
- 18 is pressed by Base Trunks in a potato sack costume. Daizenshuu 7 even says they’re evenly matched.

The Yo Son Goku OVA also heads in that direction with the boys duking it out with guys above Freeza, but I haven’t seen in ages and I don’t think the OVA is very specific.

Even Super doesn’t take the idea of Base Goku being weaker than Freeza seriously. People keep forgetting BoGs/Super establish Goku and Vegeta as the strongest Z Fighters, meaning Base Goku is greatly above Base Gotenks. If somebody tries to say Base Gotenks is weaker than Freeza, I’m sure they don’t even believe that themselves.

Also, RoF Gohan is probably the weakest we’ve ever seen him since the Boo Saga and he’s blatantly stronger than Piccolo. Tagoma or Shisami calls him the strongest Z Fighter and Gohna says Tagoma is as strong as he is after he mutilated Piccolo.

As for Goku handling Rumoosh’s scream better than Kaioshin, it’s worth pointing out Goku after training with Whis is greatly above Boo Saga top tiers. RoF was a thing in the manga, just off screen.

[Lionel]

Very interesting debate. I'm now on the fence about the base saiyans having surpassed namek freeza where before i was pretty firmly in the “yes and by far” camp.

Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say anything about his base form there before Goku turns ssj.

And what do you all make of Vegeta and Goku being unconcerned about Piccolo and 18 in the buu saga world tournament and then goku staying conscious while kaioshin fainted at the elephant GoD roar before the TOP?

GreatSaiyaman123 raises the generally accepted points about the base Saiyans. Most of the confidence at the tournament was from Vegeta. #18 was motivated to enter by the prospect of winning money and likely wasn't too concerned about how she measures up to the Saiyans as long as she got paid. About Piccolo, was Vegeta even aware of his participation? A claim was made by him about having the advantage but he neglects to consider that Goku would theoretically still have access to Kaioken. Unless he thinks he grew over twenty times stronger than Goku during the 7 year time skip I would argue that was his ego talking.

[Cipher]

I have encountered the (insane?) take that Gohan is stronger than Blue Goku by the end of the ToP, despite Kuririn’s (ToP) and Gohan himself’s (Moro arc pre-training section) statements to the contrary.

Is there anything pointing to that at all? The argument is that U6 members are excited with their prospects once Kale goes berserk, putting Kale over Hit (and by proxy Goku?) and then Gohan and Kefla as well.

But with no direct verbal comparisons to Hit, isn’t it just as likely that Kale/Kefla never really surpass him? Alternately, it’s possible Hit is still weaker than Goku (and Kale), though their team-up seems to imply that they’re about even.

I always read it as: Goku/Hit/Freeza/Toppo/Vegeta > Kefla/Gohan > Kale, but with Kale alone being close enough that she’s going to be an exhausting match for any CSSB-level characters, and if anything you could knock Hit down a rung, but uh...? Thoughts?

(Personally I equate Kale to at or just below Goku Black, which would then put Kefla just below Merged Zamasu, which all lines up for me fine, with her and Gohan being just below the CSSB-level fighters.)

Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say anything about his base form there before Goku turns ssj.

And what do you all make of Vegeta and Goku being unconcerned about Piccolo and 18 in the buu saga world tournament and then goku staying conscious while kaioshin fainted at the elephant GoD roar before the TOP?

It’s in the BoG script. The manga adapts the line into a post-Super Saiyan 2 quip, so it’s less explicit, but the intent is the same.

For the questions:
1) That’s a problem no matter how you slice it, even if the base Saiyans have surpassed Freeza—unless you assume they’ve also surpassed Piccolo (who was probably kissing Semi-Perfect Cell level) and #18 quietly between arcs, since they certainly hadn’t by the Cell Games.

2) Goku just has more fortitude as a fighter overall than the Kaioshin (and strength overall, if not in base). I don’t think it’s ever been intended to be a statement on his base-level power.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, but nothing was stopping the kids to use Super Saiyan or Fusion to beat an as-strong-as Freeza opponent. Remember Tarble also implied Goku wouldn’t be able to beat them in his normal form, but changed his idea after Goku showed him Super Saiyan. Seems like Aka or Abocado is the form in which they rival Freeza.

Yeah saying Aka is how they surpass Freeza is flat out wrong. Its more likely they’re being compared to 1st form Freeza since Tarble probably doesn’t know he can transform. Goku doesn’t know about any of Freeza’s forms other than his true one, so that’s probably what he has in mind. Meaning Abo and Kado are > 100% Freeza anyway, which ends up being literal child’s play for Goku.

My take is different. As Tarble never specified in which form they rival Freeza, and he doesn’t show any reaction to their fusion, he is likely taking into account their full power, while Abo and Cado individually may be the ones shoulder to shoulder with Ginyu Squad, as Vegeta recalled. This aligns well with Goku using Super Saiyan to beat them and not his base.

[picc]

Beerus says Goku can’t beat Freeza as he is (i.e. in base form) in the movie and the anime and asks him to transform in the BoGs movie and DBS. The manga rushes over it, but the statement is still there after Goku goes SSJ. In the anime he even says SSJ Goku isn’t beating anyone stronger than Freeza, either a reference to the Kaioshins or suggesting SSJ Goku >= Freeza, more lies from Beerus either way.

Ah, so its an anime line exclusively. I was under the impression AT gave some sort of interview where he said base Goku hadn't surpassed Namek Freeza at the time he met Beerus.

Personally I don't try to analyze or quantify anime power levels whatsoever since they're so WILDLY inconsistent (even relative to the manga) and not actually from AT's pen, so I suppose that brings me back to leaning toward base Goku being > Freeza at the time.

For me it’s all in the Boo Saga. Everything up to Boo’s revival shows the Saiyans as the strongest even without transformations:
- Saiyans agree to fight in base form in the Tournament and are more worried about fighting each other than 18 or Piccolo;
- Piccolo is lumped together with Kuririn as trash and not allowed to get in Babidi’s ship. Sure, Babidi and Dabra are full of shit when it comes to the Saiyans, but I think it’s clear AT considers Piccolo just a big green Kuririn now;
- Kaioshin needs help from the Base Saiyans to beat Babidi’s minions;
- 18 is pressed by Base Trunks in a potato sack costume. Daizenshuu 7 even says they’re evenly matched.

The Yo Son Goku OVA also heads in that direction with the boys duking it out with guys above Freeza, but I haven’t seen in ages and I don’t think the OVA is very specific.

Even Super doesn’t take the idea of Base Goku being weaker than Freeza seriously. People keep forgetting BoGs/Super establish Goku and Vegeta as the strongest Z Fighters, meaning Base Goku is greatly above Base Gotenks. If somebody tries to say Base Gotenks is weaker than Freeza, I’m sure they don’t even believe that themselves.

Also, RoF Gohan is probably the weakest we’ve ever seen him since the Boo Saga and he’s blatantly stronger than Piccolo. Tagoma or Shisami calls him the strongest Z Fighter and Gohna says Tagoma is as strong as he is after he mutilated Piccolo.

As for Goku handling Rumoosh’s scream better than Kaioshin, it’s worth pointing out Goku after training with Whis is greatly above Boo Saga top tiers. RoF was a thing in the manga, just off screen.

Sure, I'd agree the Buu saga suggests base saiyans surpassing Freeza at the time. It's not conclusive but it's a reasonable assumption, which we both apparently shared.

As far as Super, here's the thing -- I could buy base Goku and Vegeta being weaker than Freeza at the time they met Beerus. But think about how much time and training they went through since then until now.

- Two years in the ROSAT with each other
- Another year for Vegeta in preparation for the rematch with Black
- Goku receiving angel training from Whis in his base form (and Beerus)
- Vegeta receiving angel training from Whis in his base form (and Beerus)
- Goku training with Merus
- Vegeta training on Yardrat
- Both of them continuing angel and GoD training post-Moro
- Goku withstanding the GoD roar in base while Kaioshin passed out

It's very tough to believe that even if they were lesser than Freeza in BoG, they aren't there by now. I personally had their manga base forms around Super Vegeta level before this debate. Are people trying to argue their base forms as inferior to Freeza ONLY back then, or that they are still weaker than he was on Namek?

[picc]

Very interesting debate. I'm now on the fence about the base saiyans having surpassed namek freeza where before i was pretty firmly in the “yes and by far” camp.

Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say anything about his base form there before Goku turns ssj.

And what do you all make of Vegeta and Goku being unconcerned about Piccolo and 18 in the buu saga world tournament and then goku staying conscious while kaioshin fainted at the elephant GoD roar before the TOP?

GreatSaiyaman123 raises the generally accepted points about the base Saiyans. Most of the confidence at the tournament was from Vegeta. #18 was motivated to enter by the prospect of winning money and likely wasn't too concerned about how she measures up to the Saiyans as long as she got paid. About Piccolo, was Vegeta even aware of his participation? A claim was made by him about having the advantage but he neglects to consider that Goku would theoretically still have access to Kaioken. Unless he thinks he grew over twenty times stronger than Goku during the 7 year time skip I would argue that was his ego talking.

Piccolo was present at the punch-in, so Vegeta was aware of his participation there.

[picc]

It’s in the BoG script. The manga adapts the line into a post-Super Saiyan 2 quip, so it’s less explicit, but the intent is the same.

For the questions:
1) That’s a problem no matter how you slice it, even if the base Saiyans have surpassed Freeza—unless you assume they’ve also surpassed Piccolo (who was probably kissing Semi-Perfect Cell level) and #18 quietly between arcs, since they certainly hadn’t by the Cell Games.

2) Goku just has more fortitude as a fighter overall than the Kaioshin (and strength overall, if not in base). I don’t think it’s ever been intended to be a statement on his base-level power.

Is there somewhere I can find the script?

And yeah, the world tournament is tricky. There's a gigantic difference between namek freeza and even cell saga piccolo they could easily fit into. I guess I'd lean toward the saiyans just being naturally overconfident and unbothered.

Thinking about it further, Piccolo was decently close to their SSJ forms in the U6 tournament, so it wouldnt make sense for their base forms to be similar to his power level before that.

I did interpret it as a statement on their relative power levels. I mean, that's how it came across to me. Kaioshin isn't all that strong to begin with so it was never a huge stretch imo.

[Skar]

Even Super doesn’t take the idea of Base Goku being weaker than Freeza seriously. People keep forgetting BoGs/Super establish Goku and Vegeta as the strongest Z Fighters, meaning Base Goku is greatly above Base Gotenks. If somebody tries to say Base Gotenks is weaker than Freeza, I’m sure they don’t even believe that themselves.

I always assumed that Gohan and Gotenks lost power by BoG since Gohan was originally only in SSJ and Gotenks didn't go SSJ3. They were stronger than Goku in the Buu saga and the story usually acknowledges when the strongest of a previous saga has been surpassed. We didn't assume Goku and Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan just because they trained hard but because it was flat-out stated after they powered up to SSJ2.

I think it raises the question why Toriyama would include such a direct statement from Beerus if he intended for it to be false. Toriyama could've had him say something like "have you grown stronger since defeating Freeza?" or just asking to see Goku's current full power with no mention of his base. There's always effort to refute that statement but not really an explanation why Toriyama would go out of his way to include it in the first place.

[Cipher]

I did interpret it as a statement on their relative power levels. I mean, that's how it came across to me. Kaioshin isn't all that strong to begin with so it was never a huge stretch imo.

Kaioshin is considerably stronger when they first meet, unless you subscribe to the base Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo.

I suppose it’s possible Goku closed the gap even in base across the first two arcs of Super, but Whis’ slightly ambiguous use of “level” rather than “power” in Japanese has always leaned me toward reading it more as a general fighting aptitude thing than a raw strength one. How does the English release handle his line?

I don’t figure in any massive base form increases for Goku and Vegeta until maybe the Moro arc, where large leaps even in the same form are explicit. Before that, all power-ups in Super are focused squarely on new transformations or better use/adaptation of them. Though no doubt there’s some increase from their RoSaT usage pre-U6. (Which is a weird one, as there are no explicit pay-offs from it in either version. I just kind of assume they’re at least stronger than Golden Freeza was using Blue when they get out.)

Vegeta’s extra day/year in the Zamasu arc only explicitly yields the ability to do the rapid God/Blue switch upon exit—he overcomes Blue’s drain on transformation, but no one notes any substantial traditional power-ups, and if anything Black’s confusion during their rematch would indicate there weren’t any.

Is there somewhere I can find the script?

I meant that it’s just in the movie, which was scripted by Toriyama.

[Lionel]

Very interesting debate. I'm now on the fence about the base saiyans having surpassed namek freeza where before i was pretty firmly in the “yes and by far” camp.

Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say anything about his base form there before Goku turns ssj.

And what do you all make of Vegeta and Goku being unconcerned about Piccolo and 18 in the buu saga world tournament and then goku staying conscious while kaioshin fainted at the elephant GoD roar before the TOP?

GreatSaiyaman123 raises the generally accepted points about the base Saiyans. Most of the confidence at the tournament was from Vegeta. #18 was motivated to enter by the prospect of winning money and likely wasn't too concerned about how she measures up to the Saiyans as long as she got paid. About Piccolo, was Vegeta even aware of his participation? A claim was made by him about having the advantage but he neglects to consider that Goku would theoretically still have access to Kaioken. Unless he thinks he grew over twenty times stronger than Goku during the 7 year time skip I would argue that was his ego talking.

Piccolo was present at the punch-in, so Vegeta was aware of his participation there. It just seemed both of them didn't see Piccolo and 18 as obstacles to winning. I don't think thats definitive evidence they were stronger, but it helps.

Vegeta's vote of personal confidence in his odds was made when they were still flying in the capsule plane. They didn't meet up with Piccolo until after touching down on Papaya Island.

[picc]

I did interpret it as a statement on their relative power levels. I mean, that's how it came across to me. Kaioshin isn't all that strong to begin with so it was never a huge stretch imo.

Kaioshin is considerably stronger when they first meet, unless you subscribe to the base Saiyans being stronger than Piccolo.

I suppose it’s possible Goku closed the gap even in base across the first two arcs of Super, but Whis’ slightly ambiguous use of “level” rather than “power” in Japanese has always leaned me toward reading it more as a general fighting aptitude thing than a raw strength one. How does the English release handle his line?

I don’t figure in any massive base form increases for Goku and Vegeta until maybe the Moro arc, where large leaps even in the same form are explicit. Before that, all power-ups in Super are focused squarely on new transformations or better use/adaptation of them. Though no doubt there’s some increase from their RoSaT usage pre-U6. (Which is a weird one, as there are no explicit pay-offs from it in either version. I just kind of assume they’re at least stronger than Golden Freeza was using Blue when they get out.)

Vegeta’s extra day/year in the Zamasu arc only explicitly yields the ability to do the rapid God/Blue switch upon exit—he overcomes Blue’s drain on transformation, but no one notes any substantial traditional power-ups, and if anything Black’s confusion during their rematch would indicate there weren’t any.

Thinking about it, I don't see the base saiyans as ever being stronger than Piccolo. It just doesn't fit with the timeline and future comparative performances. They seemed unbothered by his and 18's presence at the world tourney, but I suppose what else would I expect from Goku and Vegeta? Majin Buu could have entered and they would have been excited to fight him even without ssj.

But Kaioshin was never that strong. I know people point to Piccolo backing out of his fight with him at the world tourney, but that came across clearly to me as recognizing him as a divine being and bowing out due to respect.

Yes, Kaioshin is much stronger than their base in the Buu saga, but they actually do go through significant training arcs in the time between then and the ToP. Most notably spending those two years together in the time chamber in addition to their Whis and Beerus assisted training.

The english manga line is as follows:

*roar*
Goku: W-what's this? I can't move... I can't feel anything...
*Kaioshin drops to the floor*
Whis: Lord Rumsshi possesses the greatest lungs across all of the universes. His battle roar is strong enough to paralyze the motor nerves of anyone who hears it. At the lord of lord's level (kaioshin), it would make them all faint in an instant.
*another Kaioshin from another universe faints and hits the floor*
Whis: Even the gods of destruction should be barely standing at this point.
(gods of destruction are paralyzed from proximity to the blast)

If it was something that only affected divine beings, Goku wouldn't have been affected at all. The fact he stayed upright while kaioshin dropped, and they were right next to each other, says to me Goku is stronger. Whis used general words like "strong enough" and "anyone" to describe the nature of the roar and those who hear it, so no reason to think it especially works against gods vs mortals.

[picc]

GreatSaiyaman123 raises the generally accepted points about the base Saiyans. Most of the confidence at the tournament was from Vegeta. #18 was motivated to enter by the prospect of winning money and likely wasn't too concerned about how she measures up to the Saiyans as long as she got paid. About Piccolo, was Vegeta even aware of his participation? A claim was made by him about having the advantage but he neglects to consider that Goku would theoretically still have access to Kaioken. Unless he thinks he grew over twenty times stronger than Goku during the 7 year time skip I would argue that was his ego talking.

Piccolo was present at the punch-in, so Vegeta was aware of his participation there. It just seemed both of them didn't see Piccolo and 18 as obstacles to winning. I don't think thats definitive evidence they were stronger, but it helps.

Vegeta's vote of personal confidence in his odds was made when they were still flying in the capsule plane. They didn't meet up with Piccolo until after touching down on Papaya Island.

Yeah, i'm now subscribing to goku/vegeta being confident not meaning anything. That's just who they are.

[Lionel]

The thing that bothers me about the whole Shin comparison is that this guy may not be physically the strongest but his psychic abilities are clearly impressive enough. We see how he's able to immobilise SSJ2 Gohan, if only just, and destroy a ki projectile from Buu intended to kill the young Saiyan as a regular SSJ. Did Toriyama just not consider these tools when he wrote the scenes in the ship?

Edit: Also, when he shook Goku's hand, Shin made this cryptic assessment of the Saiyan's spirit. We know he can read minds. How is it possible that he wasn't able to discern the existence of Super Saiyan 3 from Goku's thoughts? Such information should have assuaged his concerns about the future conflict unless his paranoia about Majin Buu and Babidi's group was that strong.

[picc]

I meant that it’s just in the movie, which was scripted by Toriyama.

Ok. I just rewatched the BoG scene with Beerus inspecting Goku. It seems obvious the point of it is to convey that SSJ is the thing that would allow Goku to beat Freeza. Assuming AT is the writer, there's no point to including that dialogue if it's suggesting something inaccurate. I dont believe his creative process is that complex.

With that, I'd concede Goku base at the time is inferior to Freeza.

Of course, with all the training that comes afterward, he probably thoroughly surpassed him through the course of Super.

[Cipher]

Edit: Also, when he shook Goku's hand, Shin made this cryptic assessment of the Saiyan's spirit. We know he can read minds. How is it possible that he wasn't able to discern the existence of Super Saiyan 3 from Goku's thoughts? Such information should have assuaged his concerns about the future conflict unless his paranoia about Majin Buu and Babidi's group was that strong.

Now that’s just a plothole best not thought of!

Maybe he was just really honing in on Vegeta the one time he shows that off, to embarrass him. Otherwise there are ... uh, a lot of times that might have been useful.