Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragonball0900]

I believe the promotional material for the Battle of Gods explicitly places Super Saiyan as a 50x multiplier so that's likely not the case when the movie was made.

When did promo material of BoG said the SSJ transformation from the movie was x50 may I ask? I would like to know.

I could see it going either way since Toriyama questioned the 50x multiplier so he might not have had exact numbers in mind when writing SSJ throughout the series. I think 50x could still work since official sources don't seem to inflate power levels and gaps between characters as much as fans do. Can anyone prove the power levels in DBZ Kakarot are wrong? Someone could argue they're feel those numbers are too low but that usually comes down to personal preference and not because they conflict with anything.

I would really want to agree with you that the gaps between the characters in the Cell Saga are not that big. But there are statements of the characters saying things like "Cell is on a whole different level" or "Cell's strength has increased unbelievably/extraordinarily", referring to Cell's 1st, 2nd and Perfect forms. It doesn't really look like those are just small gaps. It makes it seem impossible to make the saiyans as strong as DBZ Kakarot's power levels or even reaching the 100 million mark (weaker than Frieza still) if the x50 multiplier kept being the same. Just look how crazily strong SSJ Goku from the Cell Games is compared to his Android Arc self.

[Skar]

I would really want to agree with you that the gaps between the characters in the Cell Saga are not that big. But there are statements of the characters saying things like "Cell is on a whole different level" or "Cell's strength has increased unbelievably/extraordinarily", referring to Cell's 1st, 2nd and Perfect forms. It doesn't really look like those are just small gaps. It makes it seem impossible to make the saiyans as strong as DBZ Kakarot's power levels or even reaching the 100 million mark (weaker than Frieza still) if the x50 multiplier kept being the same. Just look how crazily strong SSJ Goku from the Cell Games is compared to his Android Arc self.

On the Herms strength checker, there were a few times that "on a different level" was used going back to early DB. I think it's a general way of someone is a lot stronger but doesn't really indicate by how much. In the Freeza saga, a gap of 20-30% was enough to one shot their opponent but then Ginyu happened to almost 3x stronger than the next strongest member. It could go either way for the Cell and Buu sagas but nothing really dictates that every powerup needs to multiple times greater.

I think the only percentages we're given in the Cell saga was 50% Goku being above ASSJ Vegeta and Future 17 using only half to defeat Gohan in their previous battle. That would imply 17 used more than half his power to kill Future Gohan who was weaker than Vegeta when he fought 18. Vegeta after his second year in the RoSaT might've been 70-80% of Goku's power but it was enough of a gap that they believed Goku stood the best chance against Cell.

I don't believe Toriyama had multipliers in mind when writing the story since the SEG multipliers came out over a decade after the manga ended. Whoever compiled that guidebook thought they were possible for the next big transformation which fits with the more conservative PLs given in other sources compared to what fans estimate.

[Grimlock]

In all official sources, he grows stronger but he's still below Freeza

Can you post all these official sources?

you seem to have a problem with the wafer stickers, for some reason. I guess it’s a pick and choose situation.

I don't. But like I said, from where I'm sitting, it's just weird and funny to see you all saying things like "only what Toriyama does is valid", "that's not canon", "that isn't said in the story" and other moronic stuff but then you all proceed to discuss using promotional stuff as evidence.

It is indeed a case of "pick and choose". You should pick a "philosophy" and stick with it. Either you stick to only what's in the series, following that idea of "canon" and ignoring everything else, or ignore the "canon" crap and take into consideration whatever official stuff is released. You can't pick both without being a contradictory person.

I don't have any problems using promotional stuff, let alone others using them. I didn't submit any post objecting you when you were discussing those power levels from the cards, did I? I don't remember doing it.

Goku had no qualms about rejecting the use of Super Saiyan when he fought Freeza in RoF,

Yeah, but that's an entirely different matter. That's a Goku that was training under Whis for a few months, it's after he got Super Saiyan God, it's after he got Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (and he has Saiyan beyond God). (Base) Movie 15 Goku stomps (base) Movie 14 Goku.

In a discussion whether base Goku from Movie 14 is stronger or not than Freeza, Movie 15 Goku has no relation to it whatsoever.

I would like to see the aforementioned evidence to contradict what Beerus said, if you don’t mind.

You have two sagas, Cell saga and Majin Buu saga, coupled that with all the years of training in between. I won't post a link to every episode and every chapter from those two sagas, but those are your "evidences". Also, Toriyama states Goku is always training.

Another one it's an implication in the Tarble OVA. It's also in the manga.



Mind you, these are not "evidences" to contradict what Beerus said, because, again, he didn't say anything wrong to begin with. These are evidences to people misinterpreting Beerus' line, assuming he was talking about Movie 14 Goku, instead of Freeza saga Goku.

Again, it's you who believes the strongest and most skilled character to date(not just holding a title, he literally sits on top of everybody in terms of fighting and skills, in his case it's earned, this is his element) cannot asses power of a shitty character by just inspecting them. And the extent of the inspection is supported by said character not contradicting the assessment.

And you believe Beerus poking Goku's body somehow is a "thorough inspection", able to asses someone's power. So this is not going anywhere.

And what's there to contradict? "Goku, you weren't able to defeat Freeza in base form, you needed to transform!", why would Goku and anyone contradict that? It's a fact. Back then he needed it.

It seems your argument is based solely on the impossibility of training and not getting as strong as YOU believe they should be, based on your expectations of it, not really based on something tangible and from the show. Because we DO NOT have any indication of the extent of it.

You say there's no indication of the extent, to which I agree (though my argument of "sixteen years of fighting and training" seems a compelling one) but you are adamant that he didn't get stronger than Freeza. If you don't know the extent, how can you be so sure that he didn't surpass Freeza by the time Movie 14 happens? So far, your argument has been a misinterpreted line and the possibility of training and not getting "as strong as I believe", and even though I acknowledge the latter's argument, that is an argument against the "sixteen years of fighting and training" one.

Truth is, base form training was last seen before the androids appeared, and thinking he got 40x stronger when he stopped training in base form is your assumption, not a fact.

No, your assumption is thinking that it's possible to separate base form from transformed states. It doesn't really matter that at some point a character was seen only training while transformed, whatever they gained from training, even if transformed, goes to their base form as well.

If you think it works like:

Base Goku = 5
Super Saiyan Goku = 10

----------*After training*-------------

Base Goku = 5
Super Saiyan Goku = 12

Goku, as a Super Saiyan, trained and now he is 12, but when he reverted back to base he is still 5. That's completely wrong and doesn't even make sense in the slighest. That also affects and destroys the concept of multiplier completely. The power one will have in a transformed state is determined directly by the power of base form. So whatever happens to one, will affect the other. You can't separate base power from transformated state power. So if Goku, even if he trained as a Super Saiyan for the whole time, got "forty times stronger", then he is overall forty times stronger, not just in Super Saiyan form.



Now it's my turn, I would like to ask you all for evidence that Movie 14 base Goku isn't stronger than Freeza (besides Beerus' misinterpreted line), please.

[Skar]

Can you post all these official sources?

I mentioned them in the same comments that you're replying to. Since you don't consider the series having a canon, I assume you wouldn't have a problem with supplementary material. I believe the highest power levels given in any guidebook or video games were in the low billions which would mean base Goku is still weaker than Freeza. Same with the power levels for the base Saiyans in DBZ Kakarot. They all agree he's gotten stronger in base like you're arguing but not enough to conflict with Beerus' statement.

[Grimlock]

I don't, which is why I'm asking that you provide these sources. Where's this supplementary material that supposedly proves me wrong? I don't know and I haven't seen any recent guidebook stating anything of sorts. If you are referring to Freeza's power level from the old guidebook, then I already said that I believe Goku has surpassed whatever the number is.

I don't know and I haven't seen any videogame stating anything of sorts. If the games present an even higher number than the old one, then it's something I missed, which also makes me ask you to post it so that I can take a look for myself.

What does Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot say about Saiyans' power level? pun intended!

[Skar]

I don't, which is why I'm asking that you provide these sources. What and where is this supplementary material that supposedly proves me wrong? I don't know and haven't seen any recent guidebook stating anything of sorts. If you are referring to Freeza's power level from the old guidebook, then I already said that I believe Goku has surpassed whatever the number is

I checked the wiki's list of power levels and gives the latest ones from video games and Jump magazine. They all vary and only the interpretation of whoever wrote them at the time but what they all had in common that base Saiyans would still be below Freeza dividing any of those numbers by 50. Maybe someone who played the DBZ Kakarot could verify this but I read it only has the base Saiyans in the Buu saga at around ten million.

[Lionel]

I don't, which is why I'm asking that you provide these sources. What and where is this supplementary material that supposedly proves me wrong? I don't know and haven't seen any recent guidebook stating anything of sorts. If you are referring to Freeza's power level from the old guidebook, then I already said that I believe Goku has surpassed whatever the number is

I checked the wiki's list of power levels and gives the latest ones from video games and Jump magazine. They all vary and only the interpretation of whoever wrote them at the time but what they all had in common that base Saiyans would still be below Freeza dividing any of those numbers by 50. Maybe someone who played the DBZ Kakarot could verify this but I read it only has the base Saiyans in the Buu saga at around ten million.

Not sure I would put them that low. I haven't played any of the games since Legacy of Goku 2 and Buu's Fury but the base Saiyans seem like they already could have broken the double digit millions ceiling by the ROSAT. Consider how one of the strongest in the Android arc, Vegeta, his strongest projectile did but the merest of superficial damage to #18. After fusing with Kami, Piccolo's own strongest attack had even less impact against Imperfect Cell who was equal to #16, an android representing the next link on the power chain whose attack barely had a reaction from Semi-Perfect Cell. Super Vegeta makes a mockery of him yet afterwards he's floored by what was unknowingly just half of SSJ Goku's power.

Really, some of those reactions are similar to what we saw from Daimou when he first took Goku's Kamehameha head on and it had no impact; that after admitting to using less than half of his strength.

[Hugo Boss]

from where I'm sitting, it's weird and funny to see you all saying things like "only what Toriyama does is valid", "that's not canon", "that isn't said in the story" and other moronic stuff but then you all proceed to discuss using promotional stuff as evidence.

I think you are projecting here. As far as we’ve discussed this stuff, none has said it’s a primary source of information or brought up which counts and whatnot. It’s just that some of us see room on using them to discuss controversial topics, where the story itself is unclear. I don’t know if it’s necessary always bringing up this disclaimer every time I comment this stuff, but more than once I’ve said people are entitled to their opinion on this matter. I particularly take what aligns with my own perspective and see what people think about it. I’m not expecting consensus.

You can't pick both without being a contradictory person.

I may apologize if sometimes it looks like that, but my take tend to favor more what I interpret from the story and when I’m not sure about a specific topic I search what the promotional stuff have to say. Multipliers are also promotional stuff, for that matter. And usually a few promotional tidbits don’t jive well with how I read the story, so I disregard them.

I don't have any problems using promotional stuff, let alone seeing you using them. I didn't submit any post objecting you when you were discussing those power levels from the cards, did I? I don't remember doing it.

You didn’t address me directly, but you made a very rude comment a page after I linked several wafer sticker collections to contextualize a Skar’s post. Seemed like you were trying to mock me, don’t you think?

In a discussion whether base Goku from Movie 14 is stronger or not than Freeza, Movie 15 Goku has no relation to it whatsoever.

You are missing the point here. I brought up this occasion, because it’s in-character for Goku to offer rebuttals when someone asks his opinion or particularly when someone is assessing his strength and he doesn’t agree. If Beerus’ inspection was off, he would have at least tried to say “Beerus-sama, in reality I wouldn’t even need Super Saiyan the way I’m now…”. What do you think?

You have two sagas, Cell saga and Majin Buu saga, coupled that with all the years of training in between. I won't post a link to every episode and every chapter from those two sagas, but those are your "evidences". Also, Toriyama states Goku is always training.

I will need a little more than that. You don’t need to provide links, just reference what you think it’s worth and I will do my research. I don’t have any problem on changing my opinion on this matter if you present something reasonable. I anticipate that I see value on subtext and/or direct comparisons. 16 years of training is pretty vague. Goku had mostly unlocked his Super Saiyan forms and learned Fusion after Cell’s defeat. Cell Arc is the one in which his base form seemingly had its greatest increase as a follow up of his Super Saiyan huge gains, but he didn’t use it for any battles. Neither him nor the other Saiyans. So, it’s difficult to assess.

Another one it's implied in the Tarble OVA. It's also in the manga.

Goku just said that Freeza wasn’t much of an opponent the way they were at that point. In the manga he said something similar about Dabra, who he compared with Cell. It doesn’t mean Goku could beat Cell or Freeza in his base form, just that accounting his whole skillset, Cell and Freeza couldn’t offer any difficult challenge for him, like Majin Boo was. Goku would probably be disappointed with anyone that was weaker than Boo.

Mind you, these are not "evidences" to contradict what Beerus said, because, again, he didn't say anything wrong to begin with. These are evidences to people misinterpreting Beerus' line, assuming he was talking about Movie 14 Goku, instead of Freeza saga Goku.

But Beerus was talking about Movie 14 Goku there. I honestly never saw anyone assuming he was talking about Freeza saga Goku before you did. I would like to understand why you think this reasoning is correct, because Beerus seemed to be interested in what Goku could do after all those years. He inspected him and such, and wouldn’t make a new analysis if he had the intention to mention facts he already knew.

Now it's my turn, I would like to ask you all for evidence that Movie 14 base Goku isn't stronger than Freeza (besides Beerus' misinterpreted line), please.

After Goku defeats Freeza, or when Super Saiyan became a recurring theme, the Saiyans only ever used their normal forms for training or to fight pushovers like Pui Pui or Yakon. How they compare to Freeza? Who knows. There is Base Future Gohan manhandling Super Saiyan Future Kid Trunks, but who knows how strong Trunks was there. It’s a non-answer for both sides. Movies 7-13 in another hand have Base Saiyans doing things that may suggest they are stronger than Freeza. Base Gohan literally blew away Freeza in one move.

[Grimlock]

I checked the wiki's list of power levels and gives the latest ones from video games and Jump magazine. They all vary and only the interpretation of whoever wrote them at the time but what they all had in common that base Saiyans would still be below Freeza dividing any of those numbers by 50. Maybe someone who played the DBZ Kakarot could verify this but I read it only has the base Saiyans in the Buu saga at around ten million.

You are not giving me much. That and my feeling that I don't think these "latest games" have ever stated anything. I can guarantee you that Xenoverse and Fusions, the ones I play, never said about Movie 14 base Goku be below Freeza from Freeza saga. I haven't played Dragon Ball FighterZ nor Dragon Ball Z Kakarot, but I got a strong feeling neither of these games have stated something as well.

I will be waiting for someone to verify any of this, of course.

I think you are projecting here. As far as we’ve discussed this stuff, none has said it’s a primary source of information or brought up which counts and whatnot. It’s just that some of us see room on using them to discuss controversial topics, where the story itself is unclear. I don’t know if it’s necessary always bringing up this disclaimer every time I comment this stuff, but more than once I’ve said people are entitled to their opinion on this matter. I particularly take what aligns with my own perspective and see what people think about it. I’m not expecting consensus.

Thanks for clarifying. And I'm just pointing out what I observe out there.

I may apologize if sometimes it looks like that, but my take tend to favor more what I interpret from the story and when I’m not sure about a specific topic I search what the promotional stuff have to say. Multipliers are also promotional stuff, for that matter. And usually a few promotional tidbits don’t jive well with how I read the story, so I disregard them.

No need to. My post wasn't directed towards you specifically. Like I said above, it was a commentary based on general behavior I see. I imagined that by saying "you all" ("you" in plural) would be enough to clarify that. From what I see, I know you (singular) isn't one to say "that's not canon" and then proceed to argue using promotional stuff.

You didn’t address me directly, but you made a very rude comment a page after I linked several wafer sticker collections to contextualize a Skar’s post. Seemed like you were trying to mock me, don’t you think?

What was so "rude" about what I said exactly? I mean, I do think the numbers from those images are random, but that wasn't an attack on anyone in particular or anything. There's literally no reason for you to feel mocked or to even think it was "rude". I am entitled to that opinion, aren't I? But again, me thinking those numbers are random doesn't mean I have something against it or people using them.

If Beerus’ inspection was off, he would have at least tried to say “Beerus-sama, in reality I wouldn’t even need Super Saiyan the way I’m now…”. What do you think?

Probably. But maybe Goku, too, realized that Beerus wasn't referring to him from that very moment, which would explain why he didn't offer any rebuttal.

I think if they had added any line after Beerus poked Goku's body, it would get rid of Beerus' ambiguous line.

I will need a little more than that. You don’t need to provide links, just reference what you think it’s worth and I will do my research. I don’t have any problem on changing my opinion on this matter if you present something reasonable. I anticipate that I see value on subtext and/or direct comparisons. 16 years of training is pretty vague. Goku had mostly unlocked his Super Saiyan forms and learned Fusion after Cell’s defeat. Cell Arc is the one in which his base form seemingly had its greatest increase as a follow up of his Super Saiyan huge gains, but he didn’t use it for any battles. Neither him nor the other Saiyans. So, it’s difficult to assess.

No, I don't think you need. "Sixteen years of getting stronger" cannot be reduced to "vagueness". That's just turning a blind eye and refusing to at least acknowledge such possibility. You are looking for something specific, there isn't. But then again, I don't think any of you will be able to provide anything specific that proves Movie 14 base Goku is weaker than Freeza, so we are on the same boat.

But Beerus was talking about Movie 14 Goku there. I honestly never saw anyone assuming he was talking about Freeza saga Goku before you did. I would like to understand why you think this reasoning is correct, because Beerus seemed to be interested in what Goku could do after all those years. He inspected him and such, and wouldn’t make a new analysis if he had the intention to mention facts he already knew.

I already said, it doesn't make sense for Beerus to be referring to present Goku because he doesn't know Goku's full power. He can't tell what is the extent of Goku's strength, he can guess, but guessing can be off. Beerus isn't omniscient, as far as we know. And because his remark makes totally sense if you connect that moment to when he saw what happened in Whis' staff. The former is a follow-up scene to the latter.

1 - He sees Goku fighting Freeza. He wonders why his hair isn't black, an usual trait of the Saiyans. Whis explains that's Super Saiyan.
2 - Then, Beerus sees Goku personally. In a sort of "gag moment", he pokes Goku's body and then remarks (based on what he saw through Whis' staff): "it doesn't seem like you can defeat him as you are, but I understand you can transform".

He's basically narrating what he saw previously. The thing is, again, certain words chosen are in the present tense, which may cause this unnecessary mess. If he had said using those words in the past, maybe it would've been much clearer to all.

"As you are" refers to what Beerus is seeing, and he is seeing a Goku in base form, but had Goku met Beerus as a Super Saiyan, he would probably have said something different. And "as you are" in reference to the fact that Goku needed to transform at that time. I don't know if I can explain it any better or be clearer than I am right now, but this is why I think this reasoning is correct.

I should also say: Cases of misinterpreting a character's line is nothing new in Dragon Ball. I remember people getting very confused, throughout the Internet, when it was revealed Freeza would be revived:

But Shenlong can only revive a person who died within one year. How can that be!?

And I remember some taking an amount of effort to explain to these people how the rule of reviving someone using Shenlong's power actually worked.

It’s a non-answer for both sides.

We can certainly agree on that.

[Skar]

You are not giving me much. That and my feeling that I don't think these "latest games" have ever stated anything. I can guarantee you that Xenoverse and Fusions, the ones I play, never said about Movie 14 base Goku be below Freeza from Freeza saga. I haven't played Dragon Ball FighterZ nor Dragon Ball Z Kakarot, but I got a strong feeling neither of these games have stated something as well.

I will be waiting for someone to verify any of this, of course.

They're for characters up to the Buu saga. There's also the old Jump scan that had Broly at 1.4 billion and SSJ Gogeta 2.5 billion. I think these might be low since even Gogeta would be below Freeza but that's as far as they go. If they all still have base Goku far weaker than Freeza by the Buu saga, it's unlikely they would have him surpass Freeza in the four years to BoG. You don't have to believe them and still interpret Beerus' statement however you want. I didn't have a problem with Beerus' line and just thought it was interesting that supplementary numbers didn't conflict with it.

[Hugo Boss]

"Sixteen years of getting stronger" cannot be reduced to "vagueness". That's just turning a blind eye and refusing to at least acknowledge such possibility. You are looking for something specific, there isn't. But then again, I don't think any of you will be able to provide anything specific that proves Movie 14 base Goku is weaker than Freeza, so we are on the same boat.

While I acknowledge this possibility, since they are 16 years of training, I tend to be conservative about calling it “evidence”. After all, Saiyan’s base form had a huge increase in Freeza Arc, and most of their later gains were observed in Super Saiyan forms, leaving us with practically our own opinion.

I don't know if I can explain it any better or be clearer than I am right now, but this is why I think this reasoning is correct.

So, basically you think Beerus was showing off and making Goku believe his inspection was accurate, when Beerus merely used his intel to pass up confidence. Did I understand correctly?

[Koitsukai]

And what's there to contradict? "Goku, you weren't able to defeat Freeza in base form, you needed to transform!", why would Goku and anyone contradict that? It's a fact. Back then he needed it.


You say there's no indication of the extent, to which I agree (though my argument of "sixteen years of fighting and training" seems a compelling one) but you are adamant that he didn't get stronger than Freeza. If you don't know the extent, how can you be so sure that he didn't surpass Freeza by the time Movie 14 happens? So far, your argument has been a misinterpreted line and the possibility of training and not getting "as strong as I believe", and even though I acknowledge the latter's argument, that is an argument against the "sixteen years of fighting and training" one.


No, your assumption is thinking that it's possible to separate base form from transformed states. It doesn't really matter that at some point a character was seen only training while transformed, whatever they gained from training, even if transformed, goes to their base form as well.


Goku, as a Super Saiyan, trained and now he is 12, but when he reverted back to base he is still 5. That's completely wrong and doesn't even make sense in the slighest. That also affects and destroys the concept of multiplier completely. The power one will have in a transformed state is determined directly by the power of base form. So whatever happens to one, will affect the other. You can't separate base power from transformated state power. So if Goku, even if he trained as a Super Saiyan for the whole time, got "forty times stronger", then he is overall forty times stronger, not just in Super Saiyan form.



Now it's my turn, I would like to ask you all for evidence that Movie 14 base Goku isn't stronger than Freeza (besides Beerus' misinterpreted line), please.

Funny you say I'm misinterpreting the line while you are basically re-writing the line to fit your interpretation, because that's not the line, it is: "how you are now you couldn't have defeated Freeza". Keyword: now, ima in japanese. "Now" has only one intepretation, so I don't know why yours means "past", like other people have pointed out to you, it makes no sense to say something Goku knows, Beerus knows and Whis knows... but most importantly, the audience knows. But yeah, you are right, this ain't going nowhere.

The question isn't how I can be so sure of the extent of his training, the question is how can you? what is there besides the relative "he trained for a lot of years"? the gains were on the SS forms, that's what they trained, where's the proof it's also for the base form?
Also, how can you be so sure that SS works how you say it does? I should ask for evidence but we both know there isn't any. We don't even know how much stronger the grade forms are. So, this is slowly becoming a battle of I think this, you think that.

Finally, Goku can be 50 M and as SS be 2,500 M. That's a huge boost in base and SS form, that could easily be his PL vs Cell, yet still below Freeza by a big margin. Leaving room for a similar boost by the Buu arc and still be below Freeza.
Even more so, Goku could be 50 M and be 3,000 M, shit, he could be 40M and be 3,000M, and there's nothing there for you to prove this cannot be the case, because, like we already established, we do not work for sure how SS works, specially Cell arc's.
Should also mention, nobody ever said anything about Vegeta's base PL after the ROSAT, so there's that as well as to "how can you be so sure?". Because nobody batted an eye, implying the gains were mostly for the SS form.

And to answer your question, the burden of proof is on you, not me. You are arguing something the show never hinted at, implied or stated, so you should be proving this thing that is not stated or hinted anywhere, so please be my guest, produce evidence beyond reasonable doubt that Freeza is weaker than base Goku.

[Grimlock]

There's also the old Jump scan that had Broly at 1.4 billion and SSJ Gogeta 2.5 billion. I think these might be low since even Gogeta would be below Freeza but that's as far as they go.

But how can you say "it might be low and Gogeta below Freeza" if apparently we don't have Freeza's power level to make such comparison? Do we have that "Jump scan" also stating Freeza's power level to be above Gogeta's "2.5 billion"? Do we know Freeza's power level from this "scan"?

If they all still have base Goku far weaker than Freeza by the Buu saga,

Who or what is "they"? You keep mentioning something but haven't shown anything, I don't know what else to say other than to keep asking for you to show me. Please let me see whatever it is you are referring to that place Goku below Freeza.

I tend to be conservative about calling it “evidence”.

It may not be a conclusive, utterly definitive evidence. But it is somehing reasonable that can't be ignored.

After all, Saiyan’s base form had a huge increase in Freeza Arc, and most of their later gains were observed in Super Saiyan forms, leaving us with practically our own opinion.

No, you also think that getting power while transformed doesn't affect the base/overall power of a person. Which is an erroneous idea.

"Most of their later gains were observed in Super Saiyan forms" means their base forms also got those gains. If one's overall power didn't get those gains, then whenever they transform into Super Saiyan, they aren't fifty times stronger anymore, or Super Saiyan 2, they aren't a hundred times stronger anymore.
The characters increased their powers while transformed and their base didn't? Then the characters can literally achieve any power level the writer desires. Hell, this idea is so wrong and the concept of multiplier becomes so obsolete, one could even say it's possible for like Super Saiyan to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 without any sort power-up, "rage boost" or technique. The forms wouldn't have any limitations, it could be like: Super Saiyan 2 > Super Saiyan 3 > Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan > Super Saiyan 3 > Super Saiyan 2 / Base > Super Saiyan 3 > Super Saiyan > Super Saiyan 2. No rules, no nothing, anything goes. It will depend on who's writing, deciding in which form that character got power, since the forms aren't bound by the power of base form.

Well, I know this is far from becoming a reality in Dragon Ball so I have nothing to worry about. And thankfully, Toriyama thinks the same. As he himself said what I'm saying. The power one has in a transformed state is directly determined by their overall power is a fact very well established in Dragon Ball.

That's the exact reason why Super Saiyan Goku from Saiyan saga is weaker than Super Saiyan Goku from Freeza saga. Or why Super Saiyan Goku from Cell saga is an omnipotent god compared to Super Saiyan Goku from Piccolo Daimaoh saga, because the strength of base Gokus from these time periods are different. And that will never change (unless the weaker ones get enough power, either in base or in Super Saiyan, it doesn't matter, they would get stronger regardless in all forms), it's a rule established by the existence of the multipliers.

So, basically you think Beerus was showing off and making Goku believe his inspection was accurate, when Beerus merely used his intel to pass up confidence. Did I understand correctly?

You didn't. Again again, basically Beerus was understanding the situation. He watched a video, and then he proceeded to "ascertain" what he saw before, based on nothing concrete, nothing conclusive, as poking someone's body is not a valid "inspection" to determine the extent of one's power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Personally I hold the ROSAT in the Cell arc and, ironically, the transition from Buu to BOG where Goku made the most improvements in his overall strength prior to that mental image training not counting transformations.

I agree. The Cell Saga had a escalation as large as the Freeza fight before Goku arrived as the top dog in both scenarios. Boo Saga Goku isn't much stronger than Gohan used to be, so unless SSJ1 Gohan was vastly above Goku he didn't improve much. I don't think Goku even doubled his strength in the Afterlife, SSJ2 and 3 aside.

Even though he didn't do any special training and was rather busy farming, the transition from Boo Saga to the start of Super is another crazy power up for Goku, at least in the movie and the anime. He isn't suggested to be the strongest Z Fighter before the ritual in the manga, but I guess you could infer that from the other two tellings of this saga.

Goku just said that Freeza wasn’t much of an opponent the way they were at that point. In the manga he said something similar about Dabra, who he compared with Cell. It doesn’t mean Goku could beat Cell or Freeza in his base form, just that accounting his whole skillset, Cell and Freeza couldn’t offer any difficult challenge for him, like Majin Boo was. Goku would probably be disappointed with anyone that was weaker than Boo.

To be fair, he did send the kids to fight and they didn't even bother transforming until Aka.

[Skar]

But how can you say "it might be low and Gogeta below Freeza" if apparently we don't have Freeza's power level to make such comparison? Do we have that "Jump scan" also stating Freeza's power level to be above Gogeta's "2.5 billion"? Do we know Freeza's power level from this "scan"?

I meant base Gogeta being below Freeza's guidebook PL of 120 million. Base Broly would be below 30 million since LSSJ was 1.4 billion. I thought 5th form Cooler being 470 million was a little high depending how strong the guy who wrote it thought SSJ3 Goku would be. At the time there wasn't any multiplier for SSJ2 and 3 that guy might've had something else in mind.

Who or what is "they"? You keep mentioning something but haven't shown anything, I don't know what else to say other than to keep asking for a source. Please let me see whatever it is you are referring to that place Goku below Freeza.

I mentioned those Jump scans and DBZ Kakarot a few times now. Maybe the wiki is wrong since I haven't played the game to verify them. DBZ Kakarot has base Goku around 7 million for the Cell saga and around 10 million in the Buu saga. I've only seen the argument that these are too low based on personal interpretation of how strong he should've gotten in base but not that they necessarily contradict anything.

[Grimlock]

I meant base Gogeta being below Freeza's guidebook PL of 120 million. Base Broly would be below 30 million since LSSJ was 1.4 billion. I thought 5th form Cooler being 470 million was a little high depending how strong the guy who wrote it thought SSJ3 Goku would be. At the time there wasn't any multiplier for SSJ2 and 3 that guy might've had something else in mind.

Ah okay. If you take those numbers and divide by fifty, you'd get a number lower than Freeza's a hundred and twenty million. I see now. Still, I believe you can see and tell that something is definitely wrong here (as you already pointed out one important detail). So this isn't a matter of "ignoring promotional stuff", no, this is a matter of ignoring contradictory and senseless stuff. Even if I were to take into consideration those numbers, they won't help anything because they conflict with everything else.

DBZ Kakarot has base Goku around 7 million for the Cell saga and around 10 million in the Buu saga.

This is definitely something I need to see for myself. I'm more than willing to accept Goku didn't surpass Freeza in sixteen years if we have something like that. Otherwise the "a decade and a half of getting stronger" argument will still sound very appealing to me.

[Hugo Boss]

No, you also think that getting power while transformed doesn't affect the base/overall power of a person. Which is an erroneous idea.

"Most of their later gains were observed in Super Saiyan forms" means their base forms also got those gains.

No no. I actually agree with the idea that the base form and Super Saiyan forms have interchangeably gains. It’s just that while we observe Super Saiyan beating stronger and stronger opponents, multiple times, we don’t observe Base Saiyans beating someone like 18 or Piccolo, who were obviously stronger than Freeza back then. Base form from Cell Arc and Majin Boo Arc lack definitive matches to draw this conclusion.

I could write a small powerlevel list to illustrate it, if you don’t mind.

SS Goku vs. Freeza - 150M
SS Vegeta vs. 18 - 250M
Piccolo vs. 17 - 300M
Cell vs. 16 - 350M
Cell vs. Super Vegeta - 500M
Super Vegeta vs. Cell - 600M
SS Goku in front of Karin - 750M
SS Goku vs. Cell - 1,500M
SS Goku vs. Yakon - 2,000M
SS Goku vs. Beerus - 2,500M

In this list, Base Goku vs. Beerus would be at 50M. I took into account all the years that he trained until he fought Beerus.

So, basically you think Beerus was showing off and making Goku believe his inspection was accurate, when Beerus merely used his intel to pass up confidence. Did I understand correctly?

You didn't. Again again, basically Beerus was understanding the situation. He watched a video, and then he proceeded to "ascertain" what he saw before, based on nothing concrete, nothing conclusive, as poking someone's body is not a valid "inspection" to determine the extent of one's power.

While I do see the point in suspecting this method of gauging strength, Beerus confirms Goku is stronger than Freeza after he fights him as a Super Saiyan. I guess this is just an occasion of applying suspension of disbelief.

[Skar]

Ah okay. If you take those numbers and divide by fifty, you'd get a number lower than Freeza's a hundred and twenty million. I see now. Still, I believe you can see and tell that something is definitely wrong here (as you already pointed out one important detail). So this isn't a matter of "ignoring promotional stuff", no, this is a matter of ignoring contradictory and senseless stuff. Even if I were to take into consideration those numbers, they won't help anything because they conflict with everything else.

Well I don't think they were 100% accurate and only pointing out that any attempt to give an official PL after the Freeza saga didn't contradict what Beerus said and not as inflated as fans have estimated them to be. Someone could disagree with those exact numbers but I don't think anything conflicts with Broly and Buu saga characters being in the low billions.

[TobyS]

No, you also think that getting power while transformed doesn't affect the base/overall power of a person. Which is an erroneous idea.

"Most of their later gains were observed in Super Saiyan forms" means their base forms also got those gains.

No no. I actually agree with the idea that the base form and Super Saiyan forms have interchangeably gains. It’s just that while we observe Super Saiyan beating stronger and stronger opponents, multiple times, we don’t observe Base Saiyans beating someone like 18 or Piccolo, who were obviously stronger than Freeza back then. Base form from Cell Arc and Majin Boo Arc lack definitive matches to draw this conclusion.

I could write a small powerlevel list to illustrate it, if you don’t mind.

SS Goku vs. Freeza - 150M
SS Vegeta vs. 18 - 250M
Piccolo vs. 17 - 300M
Cell vs. 16 - 350M
Cell vs. Super Vegeta - 500M
Super Vegeta vs. Cell - 600M
SS Goku in front of Karin - 750M
SS Goku vs. Cell - 1,500M
SS Goku vs. Yakon - 2,000M
SS Goku vs. Beerus - 2,500M

In this list, Base Goku vs. Beerus would be at 50M. I took into account all the years that he trained until he fought Beerus.

So, basically you think Beerus was showing off and making Goku believe his inspection was accurate, when Beerus merely used his intel to pass up confidence. Did I understand correctly?

You didn't. Again again, basically Beerus was understanding the situation. He watched a video, and then he proceeded to "ascertain" what he saw before, based on nothing concrete, nothing conclusive, as poking someone's body is not a valid "inspection" to determine the extent of one's power.

While I do see the point in suspecting this method of gauging strength, Beerus confirms Goku is stronger than Freeza after he fights him as a Super Saiyan. I guess this is just an occasion of applying suspension of disbelief.

Yeah this makes total sense, people forget you only need tiny gains to increase your SS power, it's a MULTIPLIER. and a massive x50 one at that. Not to mention ss2 and 3.

We know they didn't surpass Piccolo and 18 by the cell games, and we know they don't get much stronger 7 years after Buu, there's no reason they would get a lot stronger Buu to Beerus.

The crazy gains don't start again till they Train with a fucking angel.

Beerus fights goku, he goes ss. Goes Ss2. Beerus thinks that's it and is like "yeah you are someone who could beat freeza but that's it" (Beerus seemingly doesn't know of anyone between Freeza and GoD's except maybe kaioshins but he's contextually talking about mortals/fighters here and hasn't even met shin yet.)

[Grimlock]

No no. I actually agree with the idea that the base form and Super Saiyan forms have interchangeably gains. It’s just that while we observe Super Saiyan beating stronger and stronger opponents, multiple times, we don’t observe Base Saiyans beating someone like 18 or Piccolo, who were obviously stronger than Freeza back then. Base form from Cell Arc and Majin Boo Arc lack definitive matches to draw this conclusion.

If you can understand the rule that the power of base form can't be separated from the power of the transformed state (and I'm glad you can), why would you need to witness a "definitive match" of the base form? I guess sometimes it does come down to "common sense", but it's not like something impossible to imagine.

And then again, we don't see base people defeating Android 18 or Piccolo because they are never put to face them. In the former's case, there is Goten and Trunks, but they probably have a power level comparable to someone in Cell saga (I'd say they are weaker than Cell and Gohan). So I think it's obvious that Goten and Trunks would transform against her. How can you tell Goku and Vegeta (Majin Buu saga and beyond) need Super Saiyan to beat Piccolo? But then again again, Piccolo also spends his time training, so there's that. His gain may not be as huge as a Saiyan gain, but even so. We can't know if Goku and Vegeta can or can't beat Piccolo without needing Super Saiyan.

While I do see the point in suspecting this method of gauging strength, Beerus confirms Goku is stronger than Freeza after he fights him as a Super Saiyan. I guess this is just an occasion of applying suspension of disbelief.

If you can call poking someone's body a "method of gauging strength". Anyway, Beerus doesn't make any remark in the movie, so I guess you must be referring to the retellings. Still, I think Beerus understood, by witnessing the transformation, that that's what increased Goku's power and what allowed him to defeat Freeza (at that time).


Now, in regards to:

But why would Beerus tell Goku something he knows? Why would Beerus say that, back then, Goku couldn't defeat Freeza and needed Super Saiyan?

I don't know, but useless commentaries is also nothing new in Dragon Ball. Off the top of my head, why would Gogeta tell Freeza that the latter doesn't know fusion because he was dead? In the grand scheme of things, it was a pointless remark to make. It's there, if anything at all, only to tell audience that whatever happened in an alternative version of a story, that that moment didn't happen. But from an in-universe perspective, it was useless, Gogeta had no purpose in saying something like that.

There are countless of pointless remarks throughout the series. Not everything is to be taken literally or into consideration at all. But like I said many times now, to me the whole moment felt like it was just Beerus understanding what he saw through Whis' staff, nothing more than that.