Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

GreatSaiyaman123 raises the generally accepted points about the base Saiyans. Most of the confidence at the tournament was from Vegeta. #18 was motivated to enter by the prospect of winning money and likely wasn't too concerned about how she measures up to the Saiyans as long as she got paid. About Piccolo, was Vegeta even aware of his participation? A claim was made by him about having the advantage but he neglects to consider that Goku would theoretically still have access to Kaioken. Unless he thinks he grew over twenty times stronger than Goku during the 7 year time skip I would argue that was his ego talking.

Gohan did say he was going to invite everybody, so the presence of somebody who also never misses a fight shouldn’t be surprising.

That’s actually a good point about the Kaio-Ken, but to be honest had long abandoned the technique. Also worth pointing out Vegeta never saw Goku go past 4x.

I have encountered the (insane?) take that Gohan is stronger than Blue Goku by the end of the ToP, despite Kuririn’s (ToP) and Gohan himself’s (Moro arc pre-training section) statements to the contrary.

Is there anything pointing to that at all? The argument is that U6 members are excited with their prospects once Kale goes berserk, putting Kale over Hit (and by proxy Goku?) and then Gohan and Kefla as well.

But with no direct verbal comparisons to Hit, isn’t it just as likely that Kale/Kefla never really surpass him? Alternately, it’s possible Hit is still weaker than Goku (and Kale), though their team-up seems to imply that they’re about even.

I always read it as: Goku/Hit/Freeza/Toppo/Vegeta > Kefla/Gohan > Kale, but with Kale alone being close enough that she’s going to be an exhausting match for any CSSB-level characters, and if anything you could knock Hit down a rung, but uh...? Thoughts?

(Personally I equate Kale to at or just below Goku Black, which would then put Kefla just below Merged Zamasu, which all lines up for me fine, with her and Gohan being just below the CSSB-level fighters.)

Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say anything about his base form there before Goku turns ssj.

And what do you all make of Vegeta and Goku being unconcerned about Piccolo and 18 in the buu saga world tournament and then goku staying conscious while kaioshin fainted at the elephant GoD roar before the TOP?

It’s in the BoG script. The manga adapts the line into a post-Super Saiyan 2 quip, so it’s less explicit, but the intent is the same.

For the questions:
1) That’s a problem no matter how you slice it, even if the base Saiyans have surpassed Freeza—unless you assume they’ve also surpassed Piccolo (who was probably kissing Semi-Perfect Cell level) and #18 quietly between arcs, since they certainly hadn’t by the Cell Games.

2) Goku just has more fortitude as a fighter overall than the Kaioshin (and strength overall, if not in base). I don’t think it’s ever been intended to be a statement on his base-level power.

I always thought this was quite obvious. Vados said Kefla was U6’s secret weapon and that she was probably unmatched in the battlefield. Her word is definitely worth more than Kuririn’s since he can’t sense Goku’s Ki. What Gohan line are you talking about?

I always assumed that Gohan and Gotenks lost power by BoG since Gohan was originally only in SSJ and Gotenks didn't go SSJ3. They were stronger than Goku in the Buu saga and the story usually acknowledges when the strongest of a previous saga has been surpassed. We didn't assume Goku and Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan just because they trained hard but because it was flat-out stated after they powered up to SSJ2.

I think it raises the question why Toriyama would include such a direct statement from Beerus if he intended for it to be false. Toriyama could've had him say something like "have you grown stronger since defeating Freeza?" or just asking to see Goku's current full power with no mention of his base. There's always effort to refute that statement but not really an explanation why Toriyama would go out of his way to include it in the first place.

Gohan being a Super Saiyan was actually an animation error, and even if he was supposed to be it doesn’t really matter since he was Ultimate at the end of the day. I can see him growing rusty, but definitely not Gotenks. The boys have never lost the thirst for fighting and are always sparring together. IIRC the only time they’re said to be rusty is on the Tarble OVA, but that was mostly about their fighting skill.

I always thought that line was supposed to be one of Beerus’ lies to motivate Goku, not a real power statement. He knew Goku used SSJ to beat Freeza and was telling that so he’d show him the form. In the anime he even goes like “Sure you can beat Freeza, but that’s about it” to get him to show SSJ2 and 3.

It's very tough to believe that even if they were lesser than Freeza in BoG, they aren't there by now. I personally had their manga base forms around Super Vegeta level before this debate. Are people trying to argue their base forms as inferior to Freeza ONLY back then, or that they are still weaker than he was on Namek?

I think they’re clearly talking about Goku before SSJG. If anybody is saying Goku still hasn’t surpassed Freeza they’re clearly ignoring RoF.

Btw, Beerus’ line isn’t an anime thing. It’s on all three versions of the story.

The thing that bothers me about the whole Shin comparison is that this guy may not be physically the strongest but his psychic abilities are clearly impressive enough. We see how he's able to immobilise SSJ2 Gohan, if only just, and destroy a ki projectile from Buu intended to kill the young Saiyan as a regular SSJ. Did Toriyama just not consider these tools when he wrote the scenes in the ship?

Edit: Also, when he shook Goku's hand, Shin made this cryptic assessment of the Saiyan's spirit. We know he can read minds. How is it possible that he wasn't able to discern the existence of Super Saiyan 3 from Goku's thoughts? Such information should have assuaged his concerns about the future conflict unless his paranoia about Majin Buu and Babidi's group was that strong.

To be fair, I don’t think those feats were really impressive. Kaioshin has to use both hands to use the paralysis arts, so he can’t attack while at it. Blowing Boo’s blast is probably something akin to poking a balloon with a needle since these things are meant to blow up anyway.

Even if we take these feats at face value, I like to thing Kaioshin’s psychic powers were nullified by Babidi’s magic somehow. Babidi was pretty sure each one of his minions could kill Kaioshin without breaking a sweat, yet Kaioshin performed better than even Dabra against Majin Boo with his powers.

Goku himself is no amateur on when it comes to psychic abilities, having read minds and seen things on his dreams before. It doesn’t surprise me he can hide his true power from Kaioshin.

[picc]

The thing that bothers me about the whole Shin comparison is that this guy may not be physically the strongest but his psychic abilities are clearly impressive enough. We see how he's able to immobilise SSJ2 Gohan, if only just, and destroy a ki projectile from Buu intended to kill the young Saiyan as a regular SSJ. Did Toriyama just not consider these tools when he wrote the scenes in the ship?

Edit: Also, when he shook Goku's hand, Shin made this cryptic assessment of the Saiyan's spirit. We know he can read minds. How is it possible that he wasn't able to discern the existence of Super Saiyan 3 from Goku's thoughts? Such information should have assuaged his concerns about the future conflict unless his paranoia about Majin Buu and Babidi's group was that strong.

I'd chalk those up to regular old "not letting plotholes get in the way of story telling". Like asking why didnt the eagles drop Frodo off at Mordor? Because its more interesting if they don't.

[Cipher]

I always thought this was quite obvious. Vados said Kefla was U6’s secret weapon and that she was probably unmatched in the battlefield. Her word is definitely worth more than Kuririn’s since he can’t sense Goku’s Ki. What Gohan line are you talking about?

Gohan asserts that he can only be the strongest on Earth if Goku and Vegeta are off-world, which is before the end of the training in the Moro arc.

The inclusion of Kuririn’s line, and that one, which would require Gohan to surpass and then quietly be surpassed by Goku again between arcs, would seem extremely strange to me were that the intent.

Gohan gets “He might be even stronger than Goku if“ lines at the ToP, but no “Wow, he’s even stronger than Goku!” ones. Not even from Goku himself.

I’m much, much more inclined to interpret Vados’ excitement over Kefla situationally—she’s their best shot at that point–or scale Hit down (so he’s actually still a bit below Goku and maybe Kale) than I am to rewrite all the context around Gohan’s strength.

I can see: Goku/Vegeta/Hit/Freeza/Toppo/Merged Zamasu > Kefla/Gohan > Kale/Goku Black (This seems like the most readily apparent reading to me.)

I can even see: Goku/Vegeta/Freeza/Toppo/Merged Zamasu > Kefla/Gohan > Kale/Goku Black/Hit (If you assume Kale absolutely has to be stronger than Hit to get any positive reaction out of Champa.)

But I can’t really see: Kefla/Gohan > Kale > Goku/Vegeta/Hit/Freeza/Toppo/Merged Zamasu, or anything like that.

EDIT—I guess Gohan’s Moro arc line is post-SSBE and (temporary) UI, so there is that. But contextually it still feels weird in the ToP if he’s meant to have surpassed them by his fight with Kefla. Vegeta doesn’t react either. Basically everything in the moment tells us that Gohan is really impressive, but still not quite caught up to Goku. And the last word we hear from the top dogs on Kale is that they could still take her if they got serious, so the Goku Black-ish to Merged Zamasu-ish (assuming Caulifla isn’t any stronger than Zamasu) parallel fits pretty well.

[picc]

I think they’re clearly talking about Goku before SSJG. If anybody is saying Goku still hasn’t surpassed Freeza they’re clearly ignoring RoF.

Btw, Beerus’ line isn’t an anime thing. It’s on all three versions of the story.

In the manga version I read, Beerus doesn't say anything about Goku's base. Goku transforms to SSJ almost immediately after Beerus arrives to Kaio's planet.

What's the third version, btw? Manga, movie, and?

[Cipher]

What's the third version, btw? Manga, movie, and?

I like that we’ve all just quietly forgotten Super ever had a TV version.

[Skar]

Gohan being a Super Saiyan was actually an animation error, and even if he was supposed to be it doesn’t really matter since he was Ultimate at the end of the day. I can see him growing rusty, but definitely not Gotenks. The boys have never lost the thirst for fighting and are always sparring together. IIRC the only time they’re said to be rusty is on the Tarble OVA, but that was mostly about their fighting skill.

I don't know about them never losing their thirst for fighting since they clearly lost it by EoZ so it would've happened sometime after the Buu saga. It wasn't clear that Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan until the Majin boost so it would be worth noting if he surpassed SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan four years later since that's likely a bigger gap than between him and Gohan during the Cell Games.

I always thought that line was supposed to be one of Beerus’ lies to motivate Goku, not a real power statement. He knew Goku used SSJ to beat Freeza and was telling that so he’d show him the form. In the anime he even goes like “Sure you can beat Freeza, but that’s about it” to get him to show SSJ2 and 3.

The thing is if it was intended to be a lie then it would've likely been refuted within that same scene. Toriyama is a simple author that false or misinformed statements are acknowledged to be false soon after. His thought process probably wasn't "Beerus claimed Goku couldn't defeat Freeza in his current form. Rather than point out that he's wrong, the fans will know to use implications from other sagas to determine it's false on their own".

[ZombieVito]

I'm really surprised you guys are still debating this when it's very clear cut since 2013.

Beerus says something power related and no one refutes it so it's fact. It's as simple as that.

[picc]

Did some looking over the Buu saga in regards to Kaioshin.

The line about defeating Freeza in a single blow was said by Kaioshin about the past Lord of Lords that were killed by Buu. Nothing indicating that level of power is retained by himself.

Then, Kaioshin is deeply concerned about Pui-Pui, and shocked by base Vegeta's power when he kills him.

Assuming he has the same strength as the past Lord of Lord's (single blow to Freeza), which we don't have to, the level of power required for that statement wouldn't be above Trunks in his first appearance, or Goku after his year on Yardrat, pre-Android saga. Being more generous, even first appearance SSJ Vegeta could have easily disposed of Freeza in one blow.

Not assuming Kaioshin's line applies to himself, what evidence do we have of his real power level? Piccolo backed out of their fight specifically because he recognized him as a divine being. He was able to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan with his TK, but that obviously was a special ability unrelated to his battle power. Similar to Guldo.

We really have no frame of reference for how strong he is other than being shocked at base Vegeta's power and almost afraid of Pui Pui.

Have we been massively overrating him this whole time?

[Cipher]

Re: The Kaioshin (just went back and checked):

1) He never says or indicates he’s afraid of Pui-Pui. He has three lines between his appearance and death: one being shocked at the Saiyans deciding to fight alone (fair enough), one emphasizing that they shouldn’t let their guards down, since Bobbidi recruits strong fighters from all over the cosmos (also fair), and a third simply explaining Bobbidi’s location-changing magic. He’s concerned about the Saiyans being flippant in a situation where they could wind up giving Boo energy, and underestimating them, but he isn’t nervous about Pui-Pui specifically. He doesn’t even seem to know who he is.

2) He includes himself in the comment about Freeza. This is my own translation from the Japanese, but: “At that time there were five Kaioshin. Any one of us had the power to defeat Freeza in a single blow.” The pronoun isn’t present in Japanese but he is, of course, one of those five—which is implied in the scene (the other four are said to have been killed by Boo, whom he remembers), and made absolutely explicit later.

Piccolo’s lines about him also read as straight-forward power assessments. He’s on another level from Piccolo. I know fans like to retcon in the divine hierarchy explanation for Piccolo’s nerves following Shin’s lack of fighting later in the arc, but it’s pretty clear: He’s stronger than Piccolo, and consequently the base Saiyans.

(This relative clarity might be another reason I’m inclined to read Whis’ “on the Kaioshins’ level” as not being a straightforward strength assessment in Super; again given that no great leaps are attributed to Goku outside of transformations until the Moro arc. He’s a much more attuned fighter than they are though.)

[Goku9001]

Kaioshin should be among those five Kaioshin. Regardless, Kaioshin believes the Super Saiyans are much stronger than Frieza and initially believed that the Super Saiyans only slightly surpassed him. That should be default place him far beyond Frieza.

The Daizenshuu also clarifies that Kaioshin is indeed stronger than Piccolo and Krillin's response to Piccolo's statement implies that it was a power statement. Goku said "That bad huh?" and Krillin was a nervous wreck after hearing what Piccolo had to say.

[Cipher]

This all works out fine too, considering there’s a pretty sizable gap between Piccolo (last seen losing to first-form Cell) and the Super Saiyans just by the Cell Games. Even assuming Piccolo benefitted from his time in the RoSaT afterward.

[TobyS]

Not quite. Goku and Vegeta in Battle of Gods are stronger than Gohan and Gotenks. That’s a massive jump. SSJ2, maybe even 1 would smoke SSJ3 Goku from the Boo Saga.

I’m not sure why Kaioshin would be out of the comparison. He’s not like Whis who’s not allowed to fight mortals.

Beerus doesn’t know about Majin Boo, does he?

That's literally not true. There is zero evidence of that in the manga, except MAYBE the my Bulma scene but even then in Beerus is snadbagging and sighs out of boredom and Vegeta is then compared to Goku specifically.

Beerus doesn't know Majin Buu that's why to him there's no one else above Freeza he could beat, that's my whole point.

[Koitsukai]

Even though I believe Piccolo stepped down because Kami would not dare to even speak back at Enma, much less fight a Kaioshin, I also believe Shin was stronger than he was. I don't think Shin is stronger than Cell Games SS Goku, but that's still enough to be above Piccolo.

There are a couple of things that could imply Piccolo hasn't gotten much stronger doing his solo training(usually that type of training doesn't bare much fruit besides preventing one from getting weaker). He does nothing in the Buu arc, he doesn't do much in BoG, in RoF he is even below the weakest adult Gohan ever, and by the U6 arc, he is still below SS.
And we know by the FT arc, Goku's SS2 was on par with Trunks'(before his FP that equals SS3), and the latter got the same remark Goku got from Majin Vegeta. The implication is clear, Goku's SS2 isn't that much greater than it was in the Buu arc.
So Goku's SS in a previous arc shouldn't be that far ahead of Piccolo, if Big Green kept getting stronger. I'm thinking the gap from the Cell Games never got closed between them. Goku's lack of confidence in Piccolo vs Frost could fit perfectly with the Cell Games.
RoF is the greatest problem I have with Piccolo's growth.

RE: Goku, Vegeta BoG.
Vegeta was certainly the strongest of the group after his ORE NO BURUMA scene, don't know why Goku would come along with Geets at the top. If it's because Roshi said he had surpassed Goku, like he is the Z milestone, that isn't really enough. Roshi says that because to Vegeta it's more important to surpass Goku, it's about their rivarly. Also, it's clearly a wink to the Vegeta fanclub, we didn't need that line after seeing what Beerus did to SS3 Goku or to the rest of the cast.

[Lionel]

Regarding Piccolo after the ROSAT, I believe he could have surpassed Super Vegeta and the iteration of Perfect Cell we saw at the time; he had resolved to go in as if his impression was that his participation would be necessary. Goku dismisses his strength as not being able to make a difference afterwards but why would Piccolo go to the trouble of creating the thought exercise if he couldn't so much as measure up to the power he felt from Vegeta and Cell when they fought?

[picc]

Re: The Kaioshin (just went back and checked):

1) He never says or indicates he’s afraid of Pui-Pui. He has three lines between his appearance and death: one being shocked at the Saiyans deciding to fight alone (fair enough), one emphasizing that they shouldn’t let their guards down, since Bobbidi recruits strong fighters from all over the cosmos (also fair), and a third simply explaining Bobbidi’s location-changing magic. He’s concerned about the Saiyans being flippant in a situation where they could wind up giving Boo energy, and underestimating them, but he isn’t nervous about Pui-Pui specifically. He doesn’t even seem to know who he is.

2) He includes himself in the comment about Freeza. This is my own translation from the Japanese, but: “At that time there were five Kaioshin. Any one of us had the power to defeat Freeza in a single blow.” The pronoun isn’t present in Japanese but he is, of course, one of those five—which is implied in the scene (the other four are said to have been killed by Boo, whom he remembers), and made absolutely explicit later.

Just read it again and saw Kibitos line about Shin being one of the old Lord of Lord’s. So… nevermind on that. I guess it did apply to him.

Piccolo’s lines about him also read as straight-forward power assessments. He’s on another level from Piccolo. I know fans like to retcon in the divine hierarchy explanation for Piccolo’s nerves following Shin’s lack of fighting later in the arc, but it’s pretty clear: He’s stronger than Piccolo, and consequently the base Saiyans.

It reads very clearly to me as him recognizing something unusual and unnerving about Shin, wondering what it is, then discerning his identity and bowing out. I'm open to a translation issue muddying things, and welcome proof that the english version got it wrong.

But as far as what I'm reading, simply insisting it reads as a strength matter will result in nothing more than a stalemate. It does not. I'm looking right at it and could not disagree more.

[picc]

Re: piccolo in the ROSAT

Piccolo could have gotten a gigantic jump from the time chamber, and still be below 2nd form cell. There was a huge gap between him and android 16. And an even bigger gap between 16 and 2nd form cell.

Considering Piccolo had no involvement or utility in the cell games, there’s no plot related reason for an unusually large power jump, which is typically when those things happen in DB. Add there being a gargantuan gap between his pre time chamber level and a fighter (16) who was a peon to even 2nd form cell, he IMO landed somewhere above 16 but below 2nd form cell following the year inside

Btw, “Fell freeza with a single blast” isnt that strong by the buu saga. First appearance Trunks could have done that. Which ties into Shin drastically overestimating himself in comparison to the z senshi.

And his shock and awe at base vegetas power still bothers me a bit and leaves me convinced he was weaker than we think. I feel like Piccolo was far stronger than Shin, which doesnt really change anything about his involvement in the story.

[ZombieVito]

Regarding Piccolo after the ROSAT, I believe he could have surpassed Super Vegeta and the iteration of Perfect Cell we saw at the time; he had resolved to go in as if his impression was that his participation would be necessary. Goku dismisses his strength as not being able to make a difference afterwards but why would Piccolo go to the trouble of creating the thought exercise if he couldn't so much as measure up to the power he felt from Vegeta and Cell when they fought?

Surpassing Super Vegeta is kinda necessary when you have Piccolo actually stand up to the Cell Juniors. He's the only one besides Vegeta and Trunks that was still standing at the end.

[TobyS]

Regarding Piccolo after the ROSAT, I believe he could have surpassed Super Vegeta and the iteration of Perfect Cell we saw at the time; he had resolved to go in as if his impression was that his participation would be necessary. Goku dismisses his strength as not being able to make a difference afterwards but why would Piccolo go to the trouble of creating the thought exercise if he couldn't so much as measure up to the power he felt from Vegeta and Cell when they fought?

Surpassing Super Vegeta is kinda necessary when you have Piccolo actually stand up to the Cell Juniors. He's the only one besides Vegeta and Trunks that was still standing at the end.

Not only is he standing there but when he comes outta the ROSAT trunks is impressed by Piccolos gains, and Goku confirms it's not enough for perfect Cell, Piccolo must be stronger than 1st Rosat Vegeta and Imperfect Cell to want and need an assesment of his inferiority for Cell. If he didn't surpass them there would be no need for a discussion.

It's Piccolos gains from Cell to Buu which are low, but this tracks with Goku and Vegetas also being low. They are only a little above Cell games Gohan themselves.

[Goku9001]

Even though I believe Piccolo stepped down because Kami would not dare to even speak back at Enma, much less fight a Kaioshin, I also believe Shin was stronger than he was. I don't think Shin is stronger than Cell Games SS Goku, but that's still enough to be above Piccolo.

There are a couple of things that could imply Piccolo hasn't gotten much stronger doing his solo training(usually that type of training doesn't bare much fruit besides preventing one from getting weaker). He does nothing in the Buu arc, he doesn't do much in BoG, in RoF he is even below the weakest adult Gohan ever, and by the U6 arc, he is still below SS.
And we know by the FT arc, Goku's SS2 was on par with Trunks'(before his FP that equals SS3), and the latter got the same remark Goku got from Majin Vegeta. The implication is clear, Goku's SS2 isn't that much greater than it was in the Buu arc.
So Goku's SS in a previous arc shouldn't be that far ahead of Piccolo, if Big Green kept getting stronger. I'm thinking the gap from the Cell Games never got closed between them. Goku's lack of confidence in Piccolo vs Frost could fit perfectly with the Cell Games.
RoF is the greatest problem I have with Piccolo's growth.

RE: Goku, Vegeta BoG.
Vegeta was certainly the strongest of the group after his ORE NO BURUMA scene, don't know why Goku would come along with Geets at the top. If it's because Roshi said he had surpassed Goku, like he is the Z milestone, that isn't really enough. Roshi says that because to Vegeta it's more important to surpass Goku, it's about their rivarly. Also, it's clearly a wink to the Vegeta fanclub, we didn't need that line after seeing what Beerus did to SS3 Goku or to the rest of the cast.

I don't know about that. Base Goku was much stronger than SSJ Gohan during Resurrection of F and if the movie's and anime's implications of Goku being the strongest in Battle of Gods holds true here, then there's no way Goku (U6) ~ Goku (Buu). I think that also goes against what Goku tells Goten about always training intensively in case a new threat shows up.

Also, I don't think Roshi cares about his rivalry. I feel as though that's something you're adding to the text.

[Goku9001]

Trunks definitely does seem impressed by Piccolo given that Trunks was sweating when Goku said Piccolo would be practically useless. He definitely can be stronger than Super Vegeta because there is a strong case to be made for it but I don't think that really says anything on how he compares to Kaioshin or the Saiyans for that matter.