Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

Guys, image training is just that, image training. Goku one-shotting Freeza and Cell is not a necessarily factual statement of how the fights would go down. And if it were, it's a stupid statement from Toyotaro because Goku barely had actual training since the Buu Arc, and at that arc he still needed SS2 to defeat someone of just Perfect Cell's (not even his SPC state) level.

It's Goku trying to train a little during his job, which is hardly enough to satisfy him, hence the first thing he does when Mr Satan offer him lots of money is to bail to King Kai's to get some actual quality training time.

The idea that his regular SS is as strong as his SS3 in the Buu Arc would only make sense if, as Toriyama said, Goku was focusing on mastering the regular state to exert the same level of power of it's further upgrades without the strain (which is not the case since Goku used 3 on Beerus as his full power anyway)

[Lionel]

Again, there's no benefit to be had if Goku is just charging Kid Buu only to quickly transform further when he could have done so in advance if this was an opponent who he deemed unmatchable for his standard Super Saiyan form.

I'll assume you're arguing in good faith, so I'll try to explain this one more time:

The benefit is explicitly Goku testing himself against a strong imagined opponent like Boo without repercussion. If he wants to try improving his performance against them without relying on his full power, he can, and it's not even close to being the only time he's done so with opponents he knows would necessitate his strongest forms; just as they physically can't harm him, their real selves don't literally pop like balloons from a punch to the face either. Goku isn't really in harm's way, so he's free to spar with their internally simulated selves more flexibly than he could in a real combat situation.

That's what I mean when I say that Goku can fight as recklessly as he wants, by the way. I wasn't talking about his need to avoid damaging the farm he's working on with Goten; that's a completely separate argument/possibility as to why you don't see him launching Kamehamehas and shooting ki beams. You act as if I'm contradicting myself with these two points, but they're separate things that ultimately point to his sparring session being exactly that -- just a sparring session. There's nothing serious about it.

Without repercussion? Goku's movements within the mental projection is physically manifesting itself in choreographic actions that even Goten can perceive. In a prior instance of mental image training where Krillin and Gohan were synchronistically linked to each other, their image training induced a reaction in the former where he came out of the engagement in a winded state. To say that there isn't some empathic resonance with the physical body doesn't match up to the presentation of the phenomenon. It isn't just some hazard or materially free interaction limited to the thought process of the person. Goku simply getting beaten around in a mental training regimen doesn't yield any benefit for him either; he's engaged these characters before and what they, or at least what Cell and Buu have demonstrated, would result in Goku being easily put in the dirt if there wasn't enough improvement for him to sufficiently oppose them in the form he chose.

The battle was interrupted before Goku could really engage Kid Buu. In the brief glimpse we catch of his intentions he's projecting an aura and charging headfirst at his opponent. Goku isn't just stationarily waiting for Buu to come to him so he can roll with the punches and deliver condensed attacks of his own. None of it was presented as a gag or some superfluous theatre with Goku deciding to apparently get ragdolled by villains he already aware of the strength of.

[Mr Baggins]

Without repercussion? Goku's movements within the mental projection is physically manifesting itself in choreographic actions that even Goten can perceive.

Okay? What does this have to do with repercussions, or at least the ones I'm talking about?

I'm saying Goku can't be physically harmed by imaginary beings. For some reason, you keep going back to his external environment (which I acknowledged could be unwittingly destroyed).

In a prior instance of mental image training where Krillin and Gohan were synchronistically linked to each other, their image training induced a reaction in the former where he came out of the engagement in a winded state.

Getting a little tired is hardly the same as sustaining bodily damage, and Goku isn't "synchronistically linked" with anyone. The whole point is to spar with imagined representations for training purposes (just as Goku said), not engage in a precarious fight. He's not actually fighting anyone.

The more you describe all this, the more your interpretation seems explicitly at odds with the material and dialogue. I'd say it's easily the most non-straightforward interpretation of this scene ever brought up on Kanzenshuu that I've observed.

Goku simply getting beaten around in a mental training regimen doesn't yield any benefit for him either

He's not getting (and literally can't be) "beaten around" -- he's training in Super Saiyan against a mentally simulated opponent who couldn't just one-shot him in that form even if the situation was real. There's plenty of room for him to start out in lower forms and then escalate to higher ones.

It's also quite telling that you're representing these fake villains popping like air-filled balloons for all of two pages as some serious fight. It's not that deep, bro.

The battle was interrupted before Goku could really engage Kid Buu.

Exactly, but that works against your argument, not for it.

[Skar]

Gohan's power never diminished until Resurrection of F. This also coincides with Gohan retaining his Ultimate power in addition to Piccolo believing the situation was hopeless after Gohan was defeated.

If we follow the movie's implications, then Goku is blatantly made out to be stronger than Gohan. If we are going to use the Base Goku and Frieza comparison that isn't even found in the manga or anime, then it's only fair to do the same with Gohan and Goku.

Hmm I don't remember anything being mentioned after Gohan lost to Beerus. I recall he lost quicker than Buu, Krillin being surprised only that Vegeta lost, and Gotenks thinking he stood a chance in SSJ. Cell Games Gohan was the measuring stick in the Buu saga so I thought it was odd that Ultimate Gohan's power wasn't brought up in BoG if they intended for him to have been surpassed. I think there was a bio saying that he had power (or potential?) greater than a full-blooded Saiyan but that was it.

[Lionel]

Goku's movements within the mental projection is physically manifesting itself in choreographic actions that even Goten can perceive.

What does this have to do with repercussions, or at least the ones I'm talking about?

I'm saying Goku can't be physically harmed by imaginary beings. For some reason, you keep going back to his external environment (which I acknowledged could be unwittingly destroyed).

In a prior instance of mental image training where Krillin and Gohan were synchronistically linked to each other, their image training induced a reaction in the former where he came out of the engagement in a winded state.

Getting a little tired is hardly the same as sustaining bodily damage, and Goku isn't "synchronistically linked" with anyone. The whole point is to spar with imagined representations for training purposes (just as Goku said), not engage in a precarious fight. He's not actually fighting anyone.

The more you describe all this, the more your interpretation seems explicitly at odds with the material and dialogue. I'd say it's easily the most non-straightforward interpretation of this scene ever brought up on Kanzenshuu that I've observed.

Goku simply getting beaten around in a mental training regimen doesn't yield any benefit for him either

He's not getting (and literally can't be) "beaten around" -- he's training in Super Saiyan against a mentally simulated opponent who couldn't just one-shot him in that form even if the situation was real. There's plenty of room for him to start out in lower forms and then escalate to higher ones.

It's also quite telling that you're representing these fake villains popping like air-filled balloons for all of two pages as some serious fight. It's not that deep, bro.

The battle was interrupted before Goku could really engage Kid Buu.

Exactly, but that works against your argument, not for it.

Goku's external actions is repercussive because he's physically having to position himself with intended movements, exerting force and energy in a mental battle that apparently yields no consequence for the user. Physiologically the condition of fatigue is also indicative of consequence itself due to the increased oxygenisation of the blood and release of carbon dioxide; to not do so would be consequential itself with the risk of hernias and muscle cramping if going by the textbook biological reaction of not...reacting to the body's need for more air while undergoing strenuous activity. If you want blatant physical damage infliction on the body then the only example, due to the scarcity of these incidents in the canon material, is incident with Future Trunks projecting confrontations with Goku Black atop the water which comes the closest.

Goku isn't connected to anyone else in a sparring match but as stated his transformation, his movements, his projection of an aura all directly correlate to exertion on his part. We don't see any externalised injuries manifest because he isn't actually hit. Freeza and Cell were easily dispensed with and the intended fight with Buu was interrupted. The interruption itself doesn't really "work against" anything. We already have the evidence of Goku's physical body empathically mirroring or projecting the intended motions of his form inside the battle.

The presentation of Goku at odds with these villains is pretty clear cut; he's testing his own mettle as a Super Saiyan against three of the preeminent adversaries he's come across. Super Saiyan 1 is completely useless against Kid Buu under the argued premise that it's improved little to none between the Buu and BOG arcs. In a training endeavour like that with an opponent it's counterproductive since he's expending energy and ki just to, allegedly, transform soon afterwards because the obvious had already occurred with the mental replication whom he already has a full strength profile of. Goku didn't indulge in that exercise with Cell either during their brief fight.

[ZombieVito]

So, what multiplier would you give Roshi's buff form?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the narrative is excruciatingly obvious in how Goku has surpassed all his old villains just as he’s about to fight a new one. That’s storytelling 101.

17 admittedly hasn’t done any training whatsoever, and look how strong he’s gotten. The series has always been rather arbitrary when it comes to power ups, and any rationalization will always come down to fan interpretation.

I don’t see Caulifla tangling with Freeza without Super Saiyan, if their fight is any indication. And if Cabba is weaker than Caulifla, he is no match for Freeza either.

Freeza in the ToP is much stronger than his RoF self though.

Goku didn't absorb SSJG in the manga. There's a Rof manga but that was for the film following BoG and not DBS. That's why Goku needed SSJ to defeat Frost and Vegeta needing SSJ against Cabba who should've both been far weaker than 4th form Freeza in RoF.

Goku has been training with Whis for a while though. The manga skipped RoF because we already had the movie and the anime was in the process of adapting it, so I doubt we have any reason to think things went differently. I have no idea what Frost has to do with anything here.

Goku's line about Trunks and Vegeta's line about Goku in the Boo arc are 1:1 in Japanese.

Vegeta, on Goku (Boo arc):
"Impressive. You're even more powerful than Gohan from back then!"
さすがだな。あのときの悟飯以上のパワーだ！

"Incredible, Trunks. You're even stronger than Gohan from back then."
すげえぞ　トランクス。あの時の悟飯以上だ。

Relevant pages below:

Spoiler:

There's no extra intensifier on Goku's line in Super. This makes me feel like we might warrant a "Strength Checker" dialogue thread for Super in the same way Herms graced us with for the original.

There's the line, so make of it what you will. For my own interpretation, I stand on the idea that the line is meant to do nothing but imply Trunks is in line with the Super Saiyan 2s of the original series, and by extension Goku (and by extension Frost) as well. Which I don't think should even really require that line to clarify, as I stand by the idea that both series are quite consistent in no significant strength gains happening where not explicitly stated. Goku never absorbs the God power in the manga, and training in early Super is all focused on the use of God and Blue, so Goku and Vegeta's base and lower-form powers stay more or less as is (minus Vegeta's unique SS2, by way of the Beerus and Black fights, as it's the only explanation for the latter, a bit of oddness overall). Certainly you can give them some leeway from their three years in the RoSaT. I think keeping Frost in that Cell range is quite safe, but as he must be above Semi-Perfect Cell from his shrugging off Tenshinhan's Shin-Kikoho, and Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta deal with him more easily than they might have been expected to handle Cell, they have to be at least somewhat stronger. But not radically--not so radically as to alter perception of Frost or Piccolo.

Once again, I know fans like to assume these quiet, large leaps for characters just for continuing their basic training, but the one time it has ever deigned to actually comment on anything like that, it was in Battle of Gods to say it wasn't happening. When characters have gotten significantly stronger at any point, both DB and Super are explicit about it. Otherwise, I tend to assume nothing where nothing is given.

That’s definitely interesting. Viz’s translation of DBS is rather poor (You can even spot a grammar mistake in their version of the line), so it’s no surprise they butchered it.

The story is no stranger to omitting statements about power ups. We’re never told SSJ Goku between Namek and his training in the Rosat, or that Goku and Vegeta have powered up after the Cell Games, new forms aside, even though we know they’ve been training. We also have zero statements on Piccolo even though he’s holding off Frost in Super too, or 18 when she’s helping 17 beat up Shimorekka and Seven-Three.

Between Goku’s image training in the start of the series, his fight with Freeza in RoF, and Trunks own training with the Z Sword (which may brought Gohan to Majin Boo’s level in the Boo Saga) followed by several Zenkais against Goku Black, Boo Saga SSJ2 level isn’t such a big deal anymore. Plateauing has never been a thing in the series, even if they’re relying more and more on transformations most of them are still a fixed boost over the base forms. Unless we have reason to think Toyotaro thinks of SSJ forms as independent between each other.

So, what multiplier would you give Roshi's buff form?

I like 10x. Always liked to see him as comparable to Oozaru Goku given those feats he showed in the beginning of the series.

[Koitsukai]

Didn't Roshi buff up when he demonstrated the Kame hame ha? I think he doubles his power, like the Kame hame ha does, but he buffs up so that his body can take the toll and perfom the move better.

By RoF, I guess he probably can get more than twice his power, don't want to say tenfolding it, but if he is at 200 PL, and is fighting goons that are around 2,000, he might as well be getting a 10x boost.


RE: Image training: isn't it like closing my eyes and pretending I'm fighting Money Mayweather? I can beat Money easily in my head. I don't think that scene is that much different than me beating a pro boxer in my head.

[Mr Baggins]

Goku's external actions is repercussive because he's physically having to position himself with intended movements, exerting force and energy in a mental battle that apparently yields no consequence for the user.

This is such an exaggerated use of semantics that I'm genuinely wondering if I'm being baited at this point.

Of course it stands to reason that Goku would physically exert himself performing generic movements, but that's completely negligible. He's sparring with thin air and barely even using ki.

We don't see any externalised injuries manifest because he isn't actually hit.

Wait, so they would magically manifest themselves while he's closing his eyes pretending to fight opponents that are hitting him?

When has image training ever worked that way?

The interruption itself doesn't really "work against" anything.

It works against your argument that he's apparently so much stronger in BoG that he's now capable of matching or nearly matching Pure Boo in Super Saiyan, despite no indication of the sort ever being presented to the reader. We're literally not shown anything.

The presentation of Goku at odds with these villains is pretty clear cut; he's testing his own mettle as a Super Saiyan against three of the preeminent adversaries he's come across.

Yes, only without the same physical consequences of a real battle. Goku can remember their movements and speed, and proceed to imagine a fight under those stipulations using any form he wants.

Super Saiyan 1 is completely useless against Kid Buu under the argued premise that it's improved little to none between the Buu and BOG arcs.

No, the argued premise is that he has probably improved but not necessarily massively so. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the only time in the franchise that characters were encouraged to train in lower forms for situations they would ordinarily use a more powerful transformation for. There's nothing particularly odd about Goku testing his mettle against an imaginary opponent using forms that weren't enough to make a difference when he fought them in real life, even under the presumption that he's barely improved.

[Cipher]

Between Goku’s image training in the start of the series, his fight with Freeza in RoF, and Trunks own training with the Z Sword (which may brought Gohan to Majin Boo’s level in the Boo Saga) followed by several Zenkais against Goku Black, Boo Saga SSJ2 level isn’t such a big deal anymore. Plateauing has never been a thing in the series, even if they’re relying more and more on transformations most of them are still a fixed boost over the base forms. Unless we have reason to think Toyotaro thinks of SSJ forms as independent between each other.

Ignoring everything else, the series never mentions the near-death power-ups after the Namek arc, and Trunks makes it explicit that Goku and Vegeta have already tapped theirs out during the Future Trunks arc, when explaining the ability to Mai. (And why Black is continuing to benefit from it while Vegeta won't.)

On everything else: I still can't wrap my head around the idea of assuming quiet, manifold improvements for all the characters after the Namek/Cell arcs when the one time the story ever comes down on the idea either way is to nix it in Battle of Gods. Characters also regularly worry about hitting peaks without specialized training. As mentioned in previous pages, there's no reason for Piccolo to have to be radically above his Cell Games self to get his performance against Frost (if Frost is Cell-ish level, which he can be), and I actually am of the persuasion that #18 isn't significantly stronger in the Moro arc, as she only ever participates in team attacks. As with every other character who makes substantial increases in the series, I would expect some dialogue to be paid to her were she have supposed to.

Otherwise it's just a game of assuming large leaps are happening without reference or not, but the series has only ever really thrown its weight behind one reading. I'll probably be accused of low-balling here, but when given the chance to be explicit about something, the series has only ever low-balled itself. Give me a dialogue statement and I'll accept any increase--but both series are so good about providing those when that's the case, and have come down on that not being the case when not stated (BoG), that where none is given I'll personally read none as happening every time.

(Re: #17, he gets dialogue. He also gets some explanatory context in a manga back-up, as even Toyotaro was searching for a way to add a bit more coherence and context to his level of improvement.)

Re: Above: I ... honestly can't even believe we're dissecting the image-training sequence. It's the only major action beat in the first chapter of the series. Toyotaro just wanted to have Goku doing some imaginary sparring in an iconic form--I don't think it would have been in his wildest dreams that fans would read into the strength implications there, nor do I think any are given. Especially when the whole thrust of the chapter is Goku having barely been able to seriously train since the Boo arc.

[Mr Baggins]

Especially when the whole thrust of the chapter is Goku having barely been able to seriously train since the Boo arc.

I was also going to say this, but got lost in all the points I was responding to and forgot. It's true. The scene, story-wise, is quite patently telling readers that Goku only had time to train in those days when he had an opportunity to make his kid do his chores for him.

Anyway, no more dissection from me, I promise. I'm still baffled I had to do it to begin with.

[Lionel]

Goku's external actions is repercussive because he's physically having to position himself with intended movements, exerting force and energy in a mental battle that apparently yields no consequence for the user.

This is such an exaggerated use of semantics that I'm genuinely wondering if I'm being baited at this point.

Of course it stands to reason that Goku would physically exert himself performing generic movements, but that's completely negligible. He's sparring with thin air and barely even using ki.

We don't see any externalised injuries manifest because he isn't actually hit.

Wait, so they would magically manifest themselves while he's closing his eyes pretending to fight opponents that are hitting him?

When has image training ever worked that way?

The interruption itself doesn't really "work against" anything.

It works against your argument that he's apparently so much stronger in BoG that he's now capable of matching or nearly matching Pure Boo in Super Saiyan, despite no indication of the sort ever being presented to the reader. We're literally not shown anything.

The presentation of Goku at odds with these villains is pretty clear cut; he's testing his own mettle as a Super Saiyan against three of the preeminent adversaries he's come across.

Yes, only without the same physical consequences of a real battle. Goku can remember their movements and speed, and proceed to imagine a fight under those stipulations using any form he wants.

Super Saiyan 1 is completely useless against Kid Buu under the argued premise that it's improved little to none between the Buu and BOG arcs.

No, the argued premise is that he has probably improved but not necessarily massively so. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the only time in the franchise that characters were encouraged to train in lower forms for situations they would ordinarily use a more powerful transformation for. There's nothing particularly odd about Goku testing his mettle against an imaginary opponent using forms that weren't enough to make a difference when he fought them in real life, even under the presumption that he's barely improved.

You disputed that no external consequence occurs with the image creator but the act of Goku moving demonstrates the opposite. This isn't semantics. It isn't a case of paradoxically labouring while not undergoing any sort of reaction to what is being experienced inside the training exercise. There's no psycho-physiological transference of damage because he doesn't experience anything. Freeza is too weak. Cell apparently is too weak and could be brought down after a small sequence of punches and kicks. The intended fight with Buu was disrupted before it could get underway. Some fruitless showboating through the various forms isn't beneficial to him and is compounded further by the fact that his opponent is a mindless killing machine whose behavioural mannerisms were apparently retained for the mental training exercise.

Goku would have to be daft which he is but not when it comes to fighting. Super Saiyan 2 was considered suicidal just three years prior while fighting Buu. Nothing has to be gauged from Kid Buu for Goku because he fought the monster already. Kid Buu isn't a consenting sparring partner who agreed to mutual terms of restriction. Crucial difference there. Goku is simulating actual engagements with these villains. There's no implication of the villains sandbagging except perhaps Freeza but then when has he ever been drawn with his 100% musculature in the manga ever since Namek? Freeza has been more or less a nonfactor in the training since the Cell arc.

Weakened adversaries completely defeats the purpose of the war games scenario. In fact Goku isn't even treating the first two opponents as casual matches. Both of them were quickly taken out. If he was engaging someone like Vegeta or Trunks in a sparring match then that would be one thing but the gauntlet battles with the villains isn't that.

[Goku9001]

Hmm I don't remember anything being mentioned after Gohan lost to Beerus. I recall he lost quicker than Buu, Krillin being surprised only that Vegeta lost, and Gotenks thinking he stood a chance in SSJ. Cell Games Gohan was the measuring stick in the Buu saga so I thought it was odd that Ultimate Gohan's power wasn't brought up in BoG if they intended for him to have been surpassed. I think there was a bio saying that he had power (or potential?) greater than a full-blooded Saiyan but that was it.

In the anime, Piccolo is explicitly shocked at how easily Ultimate Gohan was defeated. He viewed him as the strongest even while Gotenks was there. Personally, I think this is a matter of Toriyama wanting to tell the story he wants to tell without any regard at how his audience will absorb that information. He gives us a few implications on how Goku had surpassed Gohan but should have been more explicit about it given the gargantuan power gap between the two in the manga. The most concrete piece of evidence we have is that in the movie, Roshi compares Enraged Vegeta as Goku to emphasize how Vegeta was the strongest against him. In the anime, Beerus explicitly states that Vegeta was more entertaining to battle than Goku was and the reason for Beerus' excitement hinged solely on power.

The way Vegeta talks about training and surpassing Goku seems to imply that there were gains to be made. Goku assures Goten that he has to actively prepare himself for any potential threat and was training intensively in order to do so.

Also, what is the reason behind everyone ignoring the events of Resurrection of F? Toriyama approved Base Goku's fight against Final Form Frieza who was substantially stronger than SSJ Gohan in the anime. That remained consistent with the movie as well.

[ZombieVito]

I like 10x. Always liked to see him as comparable to Oozaru Goku given those feats he showed in the beginning of the series.

I feel 10x can't happen because he never tries to do it against Piccolo who wasn't even twice as strong as him (139 vs < 260). You would think he would try to do it since he would be in the 1,000's but he decides to risk his life doing the Mafuba instead.

I think 2 times could work. It surpasses Piccolo but not by much and the latter can always evade the Kamehameha. By the time of RoF, I can see him getting more out of it since he can actually move now in the form.

Didn't Roshi buff up when he demonstrated the Kame hame ha? I think he doubles his power, like the Kame hame ha does, but he buffs up so that his body can take the toll and perfom the move better.

By RoF, I guess he probably can get more than twice his power, don't want to say tenfolding it, but if he is at 200 PL, and is fighting goons that are around 2,000, he might as well be getting a 10x boost.

Yes, in the beginning of the series he only buffs up to do the Kamehameha and that's it. It's not until RoF that he fights while in the form. I guess he trained to be able to do that all those years before RoF.

[Goku9001]

I'm not seeing how Goku couldn't have surpassed Gohan in the manga. Android 17 fought against Cell Jrs. that remained just as powerful as they were in the Cell Games and still rose to a level near Blue tier while protecting the island. Just because you disagree with the implications that are made because it was poorly conveyed doesn't mean you disregard the message being conveyed. Lionel already effectively proved how physically strenuous it was for Goku during his image training, which is consistent with what the manga and Super anime conveys. Gohan and Krillin were explicitly battling each other through image training, Trunks blatantly fights Goku Black during his image training and Frieza emulates killing Goku during image training which causes him to rise to greater heights. It's ridiculous to compare that to reality since our mind and body don't grow stronger from just our imagination whereas image training and meditation in general clearly has a profound effect on a fighter's battle power.

Toriyama's footnotes seemed to retain the idea behind Goku being the strongest fighter given what the anime conveys. The manga glosses over many details as it is a brief retelling but urges the reader to reference the movie for specific details. Regardless, the fact that the anime carries a lot of those implications made in the movie is pretty telling.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, what is the reason behind everyone ignoring the events of Resurrection of F? Toriyama approved Base Goku's fight against Final Form Frieza who was substantially stronger than SSJ Gohan in the anime. That remained consistent with the movie as well.

Some details have to be rethought because they create some consistency problems. For example, not only Base Goku isn’t always on SSG level, but his Super Saiyan form isn’t only Blue anymore. DBS both serializations and films have detracted from the idea that Goku and Vegeta would only use their normal and blue forms, they use golden and red forms as well.

[Skar]

In the anime, Piccolo is explicitly shocked at how easily Ultimate Gohan was defeated. He viewed him as the strongest even while Gotenks was there. Personally, I think this is a matter of Toriyama wanting to tell the story he wants to tell without any regard at how his audience will absorb that information. He gives us a few implications on how Goku had surpassed Gohan but should have been more explicit about it given the gargantuan power gap between the two in the manga. The most concrete piece of evidence we have is that in the movie, Roshi compares Enraged Vegeta as Goku to emphasize how Vegeta was the strongest against him. In the anime, Beerus explicitly states that Vegeta was more entertaining to battle than Goku was and the reason for Beerus' excitement hinged solely on power.

Ah ok you meant the anime. I was thinking of the movie and manga. I agree those versions didn't mention anything about Gohan and Goku was treated as the strongest. I still believe Gohan could've lost some power. I don't think Gohan's power could've stayed the same four years then suddenly drop in the one year between BoG and RoF. It would make sense it's a gradual decline unless some specific event in BoG caused his power to drop rapidly afterwards.

[Goku9001]

Also, what is the reason behind everyone ignoring the events of Resurrection of F? Toriyama approved Base Goku's fight against Final Form Frieza who was substantially stronger than SSJ Gohan in the anime. That remained consistent with the movie as well.

Some details have to be rethought because they create some consistency problems. For example, not only Base Goku isn’t always on SSG level, but his Super Saiyan form isn’t only Blue anymore. DBS both serializations and films have detracted from the idea that Goku and Vegeta would only use their normal and blue forms, they use golden and red forms as well.

Which isn't really an issue because Toriyama approved of the concept of Base Goku battling Frieza despite the changes being made in regards to Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. The only thing that would need to be rethought is scaling back both Goku and Frieza accordingly and Goku surpassing SSJ Gohan would be attributed to the special training done by Whis much like how Merus' training affected Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Also, what is the reason behind everyone ignoring the events of Resurrection of F? Toriyama approved Base Goku's fight against Final Form Frieza who was substantially stronger than SSJ Gohan in the anime. That remained consistent with the movie as well.

Some details have to be rethought because they create some consistency problems. For example, not only Base Goku isn’t always on SSG level, but his Super Saiyan form isn’t only Blue anymore. DBS both serializations and films have detracted from the idea that Goku and Vegeta would only use their normal and blue forms, they use golden and red forms as well.

Which isn't really an issue because Toriyama approved of the concept of Base Goku battling Frieza despite the changes being made in regards to Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. The only thing that would need to be rethought is scaling back both Goku and Frieza accordingly and Goku surpassing SSJ Gohan would be attributed to the special training done by Whis much like how Merus' training affected Goku.

The issue is that Base Goku only scaled up to Freeza because of his godly strength. Otherwise, we don’t know how he would fare in a normal state that doesn’t have that power, including if he would surpass SS Gohan. Whis special training amounted for their ability of using SSG and SSGSS without extra help. Basically, we read RoF, as if Goku was always in the SSG form when he is not transformed.

[Cipher]

Also, what is the reason behind everyone ignoring the events of Resurrection of F? Toriyama approved Base Goku's fight against Final Form Frieza who was substantially stronger than SSJ Gohan in the anime. That remained consistent with the movie as well.

Some details have to be rethought because they create some consistency problems. For example, not only Base Goku isn’t always on SSG level, but his Super Saiyan form isn’t only Blue anymore. DBS both serializations and films have detracted from the idea that Goku and Vegeta would only use their normal and blue forms, they use golden and red forms as well.

Yep. It’s just the assumption/acknowledgement that manga-continuity RoF events would have to play out slightly differently because its BoG ones do as well—really just coming down to Goku not absorbing the God power into lower forms in the manga. The base Goku-Freeza fight would have to play out differently accordingly.