Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lionel]

As to Goku, he was charging headlong into a direct battle with Kid Buu.

That doesn't matter, though. Goku doesn't have to worry about maintaining his distance like Vegeta because he's not actually fighting Boo. He's image training, and thus in no real danger whether he stands be on the losing end with regular SS or not. That's regardless of whether he's holding back, and the fact remains that A. Boo wasn't one-shotting Vegeta in SS2, and B. Goku tends to form cycle a lot.

There's just no evidence to suggest that there's some gargantuan difference between Goku's strength in the Boo arc and manga-BoG. He likely got a bit stronger since then, but it's nothing that the story felt was particularly worth noting.

Goku is simulating a battle with an adversary whom he has firsthand knowledge of how strong they are. It completely defeats the purpose of his intention of being prepared for opponents of Buu's level if there's some unspoken inhibition placed on Buu to keep him a competitive opponent for Goku's weakest transformation.

Apart from the stated scenario and Goku's quick dispatch of Cell with just Super Saiyan, you mean? We see how Gohan could improve himself in one day's worth of labouring with the Z-Sword to garner the inspections of his father on his chances against Fat Buu. For Shin it was more likely just a way to conciliate the loss of the sword by having some kind of benefit come from the effort but Goku who has no such illusions didn't outright dismiss the idea, more like he expressed uncertainty on whether Gohan was actually superior to Buu. Goku may not have the same potential as his son nor the Z-Sword but he had three years to mentally simulate battles with Buu intermittently with his farming obligations.

Using that random guesstimate? Probably around 10 million if you choose to use the SEG multipliers. We don't know for certain if SSJ Goku in that scene would have been able to defeat Kid Buu; only that he seemed willing to engage the Majin with just SSJ. At a minimum I believe he could have fought well against Kid Buu with SSJ though he may not have won without transforming further.

Would that result in better gains than all his various training since the Freeza saga? A year on Yardrat, three years with Piccolo, a year with Gohan, and seven years in Other World vs occasional image training for four years? I know training gains aren't always consistent but that would mean image training was the most effective training he's ever done in his life up to that point.

It does sound crazy but that's what the manga presents. How to reconcile it... Buu provided the most clear cut and weighty benchmark for Goku since Cell. In the midst of training with the Yardratians he seemed focused on learning techniques; there wasn't any actual opponent besides Freeza whom he expected to be confronted with. For the cyborgs he only had the testimony of Trunks to go off of. Cell is his most substantially understood power precedent to train for and look how it enabled Goku to improve significantly, albeit he still came up short with the unanticipated Perfect form. In the afterlife Goku couldn't even find anyone on his base level to fuse with. I suspect his training benefits primarily stemmed from the environment and whatever the Kais could provide him like the training weights we see.

[Mr Baggins]

Goku is simulating a battle with an adversary whom he has firsthand knowledge of how strong they are.

So? Goku can afford to fight more recklessly with image training by its own nature, and without image training, we've already seen him charge headlong into opponents in a different league in both DB and DBS.

The face value interpretation would be that if BoG Goku needs to train just to be able to fight opponents of Boo's level, as he's stated outright and as you concede, then Boo would still reasonably give him a good fight at full power (SS3). You seem to be going out of your way to attribute something to the scene that was never shown. Not a well-founded assumption.

Apart from the stated scenario

The "stated scenario" being that Goku is continuing his training just to keep up with Boo tier opponents? No, not apart from it.

As for Gohan, you answered your own query. His potential is his whole shtick; literally to the point that his rate of growth even shocks other Saiyans like Goku and Vegeta.

[Lionel]

Goku is simulating a battle with an adversary whom he has firsthand knowledge of how strong they are.

So? Goku can afford to fight more recklessly with image training by its own nature, and without image training, we've already seen him charge headlong into opponents in a different league in both DB and DBS.

The face value interpretation would be that if BoG Goku needs to train just to be able to fight opponents of Boo's level, as he's stated outright and as you concede, then Boo would still reasonably give him a good fight at full power (SS3). You seem to be going out of your way to attribute something to the scene that was never shown. Not a well-founded assumption.

Apart from the stated scenario

The "stated scenario" being that Goku is continuing his training just to keep up with Boo tier opponents? No, not apart from it.

As for Gohan, you answered your own query. His potential is his whole shtick; literally to the point that his rate of growth even shocks other Saiyans like Goku and Vegeta.

Okay so at first there the was the assertion that Goku needed to temper himself due to the potential hazards with moving about in the real world now it's apparently not a concern because the fight is in a mental simulation? The key takeway from the presentation is that Goku is challenging Kid Buu with just Super Saiyan 1; he's not going in with SSJ3 despite the fact that past incidents clearly indicate that even SSJ2 from the Buu arc is insufficient to challenge Kid Buu. It seems like you want this unsung inhibition to exist where Goku just shrugs off damage and continuously fights against a Buu whom he's endeavouring to prepare himself, in his weakest Super Saiyan form for some reason, in the event of future opponents who are just as strong.

Gohan trained for one day with the Z-Sword. Goku would have had 1095 days (3 years) to intermittently engage in mental training before the scene we witness in the manga happens. As incredible as Gohan's potential is, I don't think it would require over one thousand times the duration for Goku to make similar strides as Gohan seemingly accomplished.

[Mr Baggins]

It seems like you want this unsung inhibition to exist where Goku just shrugs off damage and continuously fights against a Buu whom he's endeavouring to prepare himself

I don't know what you think is "unsung" about any point I've made thus far: Goku literally does not take damage in image training. None. Zilch. Nada. He can be as reckless as he wants to be, and often is in real fights.

On top of that, I've repeatedly said 1. we know it's something of a habit for him to start out in lower forms, and 2. the training was expressly confirmed to help him keep up with Boo's level period, which already implies that he can't easily take him in a real fight.

I don't know what to tell you at this point. To be honest, I think you're taking those panels more literally than the series itself is, but I'll leave it at that.

[Lionel]

It seems like you want this unsung inhibition to exist where Goku just shrugs off damage and continuously fights against a Buu whom he's endeavouring to prepare himself

I don't know what you think is "unsung" about any point I've made thus far: Goku literally does not take damage in image training. None. Zilch. Nada. He can be as reckless as he wants to be, and often is in real fights.

On top of that, I've repeatedly said 1. we know it's something of a habit for him to start out in lower forms, and 2. the training was expressly confirmed to help him keep up with Boo's level period, which already implies that he can't easily take him in a real fight.

I don't know what to tell you at this point. To be honest, I think you're taking those panels more literally than the series itself is, but I'll leave it at that.

The argument that's being put forth is that Goku can just haphazardly do as he pleases because it's in his mind when we see him externally changing his state of being to internally alter his condition for the opponents he's subjecting himself to. On one hand you alluded to the real environment and how Goku needed to refrain out of concern that he might damage the environment or something. The other here apparently argues that the simulation allows for wanton activity, implying that consequence isn't an issue from image sparring.

If Toriyama is being straightforward here then I don't believe Goku's success against Cell and readiness to fight Kid Buu as an SSJ would have some implicit meaning that they were intentionally weakened to accommodate Goku's first form.

[Mr Baggins]

I never said they were weakened to "accommodate" Goku's first Super Saiyan stage (my main point isn't even contingent on it) but it is a universal fact that they are 100% incapable of inflicting damage. That's just how image training works, so it's as straightforward an interpretation as you can get. The idea is precisely that Goku can spar as he pleases.

I'll also reiterate this, since it's continuously being ignored:

On top of that, I've repeatedly said 1. we know it's something of a habit for him to start out in lower forms, and 2. the training was expressly confirmed to help him keep up with Boo's level period, which already implies that he can't easily take him in a real fight.

Anyway, I'm done here.

[Lionel]

I never said they were weakened to "accommodate" Goku's first Super Saiyan stage (my main point isn't even contingent on it) but it is a universal fact that they are 100% incapable of inflicting damage. That's just how image training works, so it's as straightforward an interpretation as you can get. The idea is precisely that Goku can spar as he pleases.

I'll also reiterate this, since it's continuously being ignored:

On top of that, I've repeatedly said 1. we know it's something of a habit for him to start out in lower forms, and 2. the training was expressly confirmed to help him keep up with Boo's level period, which already implies that he can't easily take him in a real fight.

Anyway, I'm done here.

This was from a previous post you made: "Yes, but two things of note: Goku technically doesn't actually get to spar with "Boo" before the session is cut short, and like you said, it's just image sparring. If he did, who's to say that he wouldn't have escalated into higher forms? And even if Goku remained in Super Saiyan, there's no guarantee that "Boo" fully represented the genuine article."

No guarantee that Buu fully represented the genuine article? Doesn't that imply a lack of authenticity or as is it pertains to this discussion strength or something?

If Goku were to fight Buu when he's purportedly not much stronger than his Buu era days as a Super Saiyan then that would be redundant, defeatist even because nothing would be gleaned from the engagement. Goku is already aware of how strong Buu is; he doesn't need to put on a show or anything. What's more, we see him easily defeating Cell as a regular Super Saiyan whereas years before it took SSJ2 to defeat the guy. What does that imply?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This recent discussion really has us all going back to how strong Goku was compared to Freeza in his base form.

How much stronger did his gains throughout the Android/Cell story arcs make him since he fought Freeza at 3 million in base form? And how much stronger could he have gotten since the end of the Buu story arc heading into BoG?

If you go with a more conservative estimate for the former, then the latter has a bit more room to work.

[Mr Baggins]

This recent discussion really has us all going back to how strong Goku was compared to Freeza in his base form.

If you're referring to RoF Freeza, that probably depends on the medium/continuity. You've got the TV anime, the manga, and the original film -- at least two of which are different. For the movie, Goku is all but guaranteed to be at or near God level in base (with SSGSS being the Super Saiyan stage of that new state) with Freeza being around that ballpark.

Edit: If you mean prior to the Super era, I'd say Koitsukai's post touches upon that rather well.

No guarantee that Buu fully represented the genuine article?

You... you mean my first reply to you from yesterday that I specifically said was just one of many possibilities that I haven't mentioned since?

Like I said, point isn't contingent on it. It's not a serious fight with serious consequences regardless.

[Skar]

It does sound crazy but that's what the manga presents. How to reconcile it... Buu provided the most clear cut and weighty benchmark for Goku since Cell. In the midst of training with the Yardratians he seemed focused on learning techniques; there wasn't any actual opponent besides Freeza whom he expected to be confronted with. For the cyborgs he only had the testimony of Trunks to go off of. Cell is his most substantially understood power precedent to train for and look how it enabled Goku to improve significantly, albeit he still came up short with the unanticipated Perfect form. In the afterlife Goku couldn't even find anyone on his base level to fuse with. I suspect his training benefits primarily stemmed from the environment and whatever the Kais could provide him like the training weights we see.

That's possible but I think the series made it clear that the same training had dimishing returns so they had to look for new or more intense ways of training. The concept of image training existed before so I don't think that's the first time Goku has ever done it. In Other World, Goku trained hard enough to unlock two transformations but his SSJ was apparently still below Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan. It's hard to see image training in regular gravity as more effective as the Rosat and Other World.

[Lionel]

No guarantee that Buu fully represented the genuine article?

You... you mean my first reply to you from yesterday that I specifically said was just one of many possibilities that I haven't mentioned since?

Like I said, point isn't contingent on it. It's not a serious fight with serious consequences regardless.

What was the other possibility? Goku potentially transforming further in the midst of the fight?

Again, there's no benefit to be had if Goku is just charging Kid Buu only to quickly transform further when he could have done so in advance if this was an opponent who he deemed unmatchable for his standard Super Saiyan form.

It does sound crazy but that's what the manga presents. How to reconcile it... Buu provided the most clear cut and weighty benchmark for Goku since Cell. In the midst of training with the Yardratians he seemed focused on learning techniques; there wasn't any actual opponent besides Freeza whom he expected to be confronted with. For the cyborgs he only had the testimony of Trunks to go off of. Cell is his most substantially understood power precedent to train for and look how it enabled Goku to improve significantly, albeit he still came up short with the unanticipated Perfect form. In the afterlife Goku couldn't even find anyone on his base level to fuse with. I suspect his training benefits primarily stemmed from the environment and whatever the Kais could provide him like the training weights we see.

That's possible but I think the series made it clear that the same training had dimishing returns so they had to look for new or more intense ways of training. The concept of image training existed before so I don't think that's the first time Goku has ever done it. In Other World, Goku trained hard enough to unlock two transformations but his SSJ was apparently still below Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan. It's hard to see image training in regular gravity as more effective as the Rosat and Other World.

You're right. The only thing that could possibly legitimise Goku making any kind of strides would be his knowledge of Buu. Goku lacked the understanding of Buu and his strength during those previous time skips where he was training.

[Koitsukai]

This recent discussion really has us all going back to how strong Goku was compared to Freeza in his base form.

How much stronger did his gains throughout the Android/Cell story arcs make him since he fought Freeza at 3 million in base form? And how much stronger could he have gotten since the end of the Buu story arc heading into BoG?

If you go with a more conservative estimate for the former, then the latter has a bit more room to work.

The android arc has several moments where an increase on the base power could've happened and could've been pointed out. Those 3 years prior to the arrival of the androids didn't seem to do much for him. Maybe because Gohan nor Piccolo were on his level, so he was like a professional athlete training with the under-age reserve squad.

Post-ROSAT we never see him in base anymore, but we do see Vegeta come out of the ROSAT and nobody is going crazy about his new power, so perhaps there was no new power -in base- to go crazy about.
The goal of the ROSAT training was to surpass Super Saiyan, not to improve the base forms, and we see Vegeta unlock several new grades, and Goku is also seen tweaking the grade forms as well, the weight of the training program was on the SS form.
Later on, Geets arrives at the Cell Games and Cell mocks him with a "he never learns" comment, also implying his base form still isn't extraordinary. We then see Vegeta use SS without the aura, so perhaps he has mastered SS, too, and his base wasn't the focus during his second turn in the room.
So, I wouldn't bet on their base forms becoming truly amazing during this arc, which is congruent with their intent when entering the ROSAT.

By the end of the Buu arc, he shouldn't have gotten much stronger, the movie is the only media that has Goku training (manga and anime have him farming and not being able to train as he'd like because of Chichi, until Mr. Satan gives him money), however, the movie is also the only media that places Goku below Freeza...
Goku got out of shape between FT arc and the ToP, this happens in the anime and in the manga, so if after so many bouts and tough training sessions during DBS, he can still lose form, then he also should lose form in those boring 4 years prior to BoG. But I wouldn't put much value on that.
I guess BoG Goku and Buu Goku shouldn't be much different, maybe slightly stronger due to... something... but nothing remarkable.

[Skar]

You're right. The only thing that could possibly legitimise Goku making any kind of strides would be his knowledge of Buu. Goku lacked the understanding of Buu and his strength during those previous time skips where he was training.

That's true but his benchmark after the Cell Games was SSJ2 Gohan and Goku managed to surpass Gohan in SSJ2 and achieve an additional form. Other World might've been the ideal place to train. I think the fact that Goku achieved two forms from training only means SSJ1 might've had diminishing returns after mastering it. He might've hit a wall in SSJ and then SSJ2 before breaking through to the next form otherwise SSJ1 would've just kept getting stronger.

[Lionel]

You're right. The only thing that could possibly legitimise Goku making any kind of strides would be his knowledge of Buu. Goku lacked the understanding of Buu and his strength during those previous time skips where he was training.

That's true but his benchmark after the Cell Games was SSJ2 Gohan and Goku managed to surpass Gohan in SSJ2 and achieve an additional form. Other World might've been the ideal place to train. I think the fact that Goku achieved two forms from training only means SSJ1 might've had diminishing returns after mastering it. He might've hit a wall in SSJ and then SSJ2 before breaking through to the next form otherwise SSJ1 would've just kept getting stronger.

I would assume that any benefits he sees with SSJ3 would reflect in his prior forms also. Doesn't the movie or anime speculate that Goku might have surpassed Gohan?

[Skar]

I would assume that any benefits he sees with SSJ3 would reflect in his prior forms also. Doesn't the movie or anime speculate that Goku might have surpassed Gohan?

I'm not sure to be honest but depends on how much of a gap you believe exists between Goku and Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Like Koitsukai pointed out, Gohan lost so much power that he struggled to turn SSJ in RoF only a year later so he probably had a gradual loss of power since the Buu saga. It could be a mix of Goku getting a little stronger and Gohan losing power that Goku was considered the strongest now.

[Lionel]

I would assume that any benefits he sees with SSJ3 would reflect in his prior forms also. Doesn't the movie or anime speculate that Goku might have surpassed Gohan?

I'm not sure to be honest but depends on how much of a gap you believe exists between Goku and Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Like Koitsukai pointed out, Gohan lost so much power that he struggled to turn SSJ in RoF only a year later so he probably had a gradual loss of power since the Buu saga. It could be a mix of Goku getting a little stronger and Gohan losing power that Goku was considered the strongest now.

Amazing, isn't it? Seven years elapse and while Gohan has noticeably weakened, it isn't to the point that he's debating whether he can even transform into a Super Saiyan still. If they were being consistent then Gohan's stature shouldn't have eroded so much in just half of that time.

Gotenks' anime only attack against Tagoma is played up for comedic effect though it was preceded by the latter's claim that the group's 'dainty attacks' wouldn't work against him. SSJ Gohan could leave a similar impact and more when he briefly fought Tagoma. It's questionable but if you take the optics of it then Gohan may have performed as well if not better than SSJ Gotenks against Tagoma. Again, it's dubious thanks to the comedic nature of the scene.

[Goku9001]

Gohan's power never diminished until Resurrection of F. This also coincides with Gohan retaining his Ultimate power in addition to Piccolo believing the situation was hopeless after Gohan was defeated.

If we follow the movie's implications, then Goku is blatantly made out to be stronger than Gohan. If we are going to use the Base Goku and Frieza comparison that isn't even found in the manga or anime, then it's only fair to do the same with Gohan and Goku.

[Goku9001]

I'm going to agree to disagree here. I've already presented you the context. The reason for the comparison is clear. I don't need to provide any evidence of Base Caulifa > Frieza since the comparison itself doesn't disprove what my position is to begin with. I'd be arguing against a brick wall. No need to discuss this any further because we see this very differently.

We can agree to disagree but I think we were discussing different points. I'm not arguing your interpretation is wrong since it hasn't been disproven. Someone could interpret it your way and reach that same conclusion since they're not mutually exclusive. I'm asking if someone had the interpretation that she only surpassed Namek SSJ Goku when that comment was made then would anything contradict her being weaker in base?

I agree but the reason for Base Caulifa < Namek Frieza should not be predicated on Frieza's statement. As for the question, nothing directly contradicts Base Caulifa < Namek Frieza other than Cabba's performance against Vegeta, if you believe the Base Saiyans were stronger than Frieza that is.

[Skar]

Amazing, isn't it? Seven years elapse and while Gohan has noticeably weakened, it isn't to the point that he's debating whether he can even transform into a Super Saiyan still. If they were being consistent then Gohan's stature shouldn't have eroded so much in just half of that time.

Gotenks' anime only attack against Tagoma is played up for comedic effect though it was preceded by the latter's claim that the group's 'dainty attacks' wouldn't work against him. SSJ Gohan could leave a similar impact and more when he briefly fought Tagoma. It's questionable but if you take the optics of it then Gohan may have performed as well if not better than SSJ Gotenks against Tagoma. Again, it's dubious thanks to the comedic nature of the scene.

Yeah it was surprising how much power Gohan lost in less time than between the Cell and Buu sagas. I think Toriyama might've considered that he hadn't trained seriously for 12 years since it was only a day with the Z Sword then the ritual. I don't know how strong he was in RoF but I guess Cell Games level at best because Piccolo was between his base and SSJ. Super Hero is 2-3 years after the ToP and he might've lost power again since he's going SSJ first while using only Ultimate in both versions of the ToP.

[Mr Baggins]

Again, there's no benefit to be had if Goku is just charging Kid Buu only to quickly transform further when he could have done so in advance if this was an opponent who he deemed unmatchable for his standard Super Saiyan form.

I'll assume you're arguing in good faith, so I'll try to explain this one more time:

The benefit is explicitly Goku testing himself against a strong imagined opponent like Boo without repercussion. If he wants to try improving his performance against them without relying on his full power, he can, and it's not even close to being the only time he's done so with opponents he knows would necessitate his strongest forms; just as they physically can't harm him, their real selves don't literally pop like balloons from a punch to the face either. Goku isn't really in harm's way, so he's free to spar with their internally simulated selves more flexibly than he could in a real combat situation.

That's what I mean when I say that Goku can fight as recklessly as he wants, by the way. I wasn't talking about his need to avoid damaging the farm he's working on with Goten; that's a completely separate argument/possibility as to why you don't see him launching Kamehamehas and shooting ki beams. You act as if I'm contradicting myself with these two points, but they're separate things that both ultimately point to his sparring session being exactly that -- just a sparring session. There's nothing serious about it.