Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[OLKv3]

I didn't understood anything this time ahaha.
Maybe Monaito has wished something different? Gas was too strong for Bardack.... a power-up couldn't have been enough to defeat him.

The powerup had nothing to do with the wish. And Gas lost his mind because he went berserk and didn't understand why Bardock wouldn't quit. Basic shounen stuff

[emperior]

Awesome chapter, as one could expect. Finally one in which I'm able to actually see Bardock in action for more than limited panels. If this is ever animated, it'll surely provide more nice content to add to Bardock in games.

I like that Bardock's "gallery of villains" just got a big bigger and that he had an interaction with a wishing dragon at some point in his life.

Trivia stuff aside, I still think we are going to see the aftermath and a bit more of Bardock next chapter, maybe Toriyama's explanation of tails growing back will appear in it? If so, hopefully the Oozaru part of gets left out, it doesn't make any sense the idea of "surpassing the power of Oozaru".

Maybe the tail will be restored by Monaito’s healing.

I don’t think we will see more of Bardock in the next chapter but I wouldn’t mind it if we did.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I actually think the wish might have been for Granolah. Monaito says that wishes must be made to create hope for the future, and then he looks at Granolah and says he must protect the remaining hope with everything he has. So when he saves Bardock from Gas' attack, he says he's finally ready to protect Granolah.

[Peach]

Interesting how the panel focused on the scouter at the very end.

I assume Frieza heard everything Elec and Gas said to Bardock then? About not being loyal to him, hiding their true hand, and that the Saiyans don't have much time left.

[Jinto]

I think Bardock got stronger when he knew what he was or more like why he is doing what he does ie not for revenge, not for attonment, not because he love battle but because "in a life or death situation, you have no other option than to win".
This comes down to what MUI is, it's not a state that you get by being calm but by knowing what you want and being focused on that....maybe

[PurestEvil]

Some thoughts on this chapter:
-The writing seems to make Monaito's wish ambiguous, but I have a few predictions:
1. Monaito simply told the dragon to go away
2. Monaito made a wish for Granolah
It couldn't be a wish for Bardock, because we see him beat Gas with a bit of determination (and possibly zenkai boosting), and surely it couldn't be for Bardock's kids, since Raditz is...well yeah. I don't know which of the two I would prefer, so I'll have to see.
-The action is really good again. 'Nuff said
-I appreciate the end bit with Elec alluding to Freeza's "zero saiyajin kinkaku"; it makes Bardock's "gut feelings" in DB minus more plausible.
-I am still a bit lost about Bardock's motivation tbh. Did he not save Granolah and Monaito out of empathy, or did he say them because he instinctively saw Gas and Elec as enemies and did not want them to win?

Overall...I can't give it a rating now, maybe I'll make my mind later.

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 83:

- Great artwork from Toyotaro (as usual) when it comes to the fight scenes

- You know, on principle, I wouldn't mind Bardock's character being explored more. Hell, the idea of exploring the moral ambiguity Bardock has when feeds into his instincts of being a battle-hungry space pirate, while trying to come to terms with himself discovering humanity and empathy can make for some incredibly compelling storytelling. The main issue is that the progression from "space pirate" to "space pirate with a heart" happens far too quickly and end result is nothing that hasn't been already done before and done far better in Dragon Ball. When you want to attempt to tell a story of a mass-murdering, genocidal space pirate developing empathy it would help more if there was more... well... development.

I feel as though Super showed the endgame of what was meant to be Bardock's character arc but skipped a hell of a lot of storytelling to get there. I know that Toyotaro has limited time to work with and has to deal with editors most likely putting mandates on what kind of narrative he has to present every month, but when you want to tell this kind of story, I honestly feel as though you have to go all out on it and develop it in a fleshed-out manner or don't bother at all.

- Ugh. Elec doesn't even bother to go properly kill Bardock and instead does the old "Eh, he's probably dead anyway" dumbshit that most villains do. I thought he was supposed the smart and most pragmatic of his group...

- Sorry, I tried, but I just can't get into Super/Minus Bardock. He is such a boring character. What Toyotaro does with Bardock's character is so trite and uninteresting that I can't get invested in anything he's doing. Gas suffers from the same problem. He's a generic villain with no distinguishable traits other than "I want to fight and be the strongest".

My guess is that Toyotaro is pitting these two together in the hope that it will spark some kind of unique personal dynamic between them and general some artificial character growth, but it not working, at last for me. Because the main issue is that up until this point in the story, Gas and Bardock have been so woefully underwritten in Super that they don't have any kind of unique personality or traits to bounce off of and support one another in terms of character development. They literally have no chemistry because of how blandly they have been written. Bardock is generic antihero #632951135 while Gas is generic doomsday villain #362421453. You can take two bowls of porridge and pour them into the same bowl but that bowl will still taste like porridge.

- I hate to sound like a broken record, but, I honestly don't know what I was meant to get out of the conflict between Gas and Bardock...

- So... what wish was made? I'm confused.

Overall thoughts... nothing happened.

[LightBing]

I didn't like this chapter.

I don't care about Bardock, he's dead for over 30 years.

This chapter destroys what Minus made interesting about the character, a brain that connected Freeza intentions, instead he's told(twice) and he's just as stupid as the other Saiyans.

Elec in true Bond villain fashion doesn't finish the job, which is plain bad writing.

If people enjoy the character and therefore the chapter, good for them. I just don't think this type of exploration should be done in the "main" story when there's unexplored characters with infinite potential that are alive...

I'm still waiting for the repercussions on Goku to see if this rabbit hole had actual value beyond complete fan-service.

[goku the krump dancer]

I dont mind Elec not solidifying the kill, there's no need to have Bardock die twice.

Ironically as much as I dont care for Bardock this was definitely one of the stronger chapters of this arc especially in regards to fight scenes and artwork. That close up of shot of Bardock spurting up blood from his mouth after blocking Gas' mace slam is a chef's kiss moment for sure.

[emperior]

Well wasn’t it weird how only Bardock, among all the Saiyans, smelled that something was wrong out of Freeza recalling everyone? It kind of makes sense that he got some hint of it in the past. He wasn’t outright told so, by the way.

This Bardock truly feels like a nobody. He just had the whim of saving Granolah and Monaito, and through this gesture he ended up acquiring more information than he was supposed to know, and this in turn was what got him to save his son.

Now, it will be interesting to see how Bardock escaped Granolah, and what happened with Freeza over there, if anything worthy of being shown happened at all.

(Some great art in the chapter by the way. I liked how Toyotaro draw Bardock’s front close ups in two panels, when he powered up)

[Magnificent Ponta]

I don't get the impression, from reading the Chapter, that Bardock's victory is down to the wish taking some sort of initial effect - not least because he's still getting decked after the wish has been made, and he needs Monaito's intervention to protect him (and as a note, I'd like the impact of any wish made to remain exactly as ambiguous as it is right now - it would be the right balance, with us continuing to wonder what exactly it did, if anything - after all, there's a huge amount of personal agency in Goku's story). The answer in fighting terms seems to be rather exactly what he says it is: total determination to win, helping him push through his own limits. And the end-note (from the serialisation itself?) seems to point exclusively in that direction as well, given that it says "All you need is 'determination to win'!!!", so I think it should be taken seriously as key.

I thought there were a couple of interesting points of contact with Toriyama's Battle of Gods Interview - firstly (and most obviously) the Saiyan capacity to quickly catch up to stronger opponents, but also there's some stuff about "winning" that has new relevance now. Goku's all about "winning", but not necessarily in the sense of "defeating an enemy", and he also thinks of combat as like a "sporting match" - which is singular to him, and foundational to his character, but not always totally appropriate to the situation. Not saying he doesn't take his fighting seriously - of course he does, but other things (like testing himself, engaging with the opponent, etc.) often enter the mix, as befits his character. It's rarely a pure focus. And Ultra Instinct by its nature has merely been characterised as very 'anti-focus' on the whole so far (clearing the mind and not thinking about anything at all), which has been causing Goku difficulty.

And I guess it's arguable that this total focus (Winners' Instinct?) isn't something Whis could ever teach Goku himself, either, since this would be specific to a life-or-death battle, and that's one thing Whis (by his nature, and despite his power) will never experience, but something which Goku's experienced many times (as has Bardock, naturally). It also has a neat linkage to the earlier comments by Beerus on thinking solely about Destruction providing him with limitless power to destroy - Bardock cares about other things more broadly (even if he doesn't know why), but once he's in the fight, it's his fight, and it's all about getting the victory - and his Saiyan nature reacted with all the power he needed to net that win. It's a simple thing, but maybe in Goku's case a basic lesson like that has the advantage of being able to align with the situation at hand, with Goku's own innate nature (both as a Saiyan and as a Martial Artist prone to getting into Life-or-Death scrapes), and with the need for simple tranquility that Ultra Instinct requires most fundamentally - it would be 'charged' differently by this new particularised focus, but wouldn't be in contravention of what's already been established. Maybe it's what Goku needs to hear, and how he needs to change the technique. We'll find out - looking forward to it, actually.

Additionally, I thought there was a neat difference of focus when it came to the wish itself. Granolah started this whole arc off by reaching back toward the past so he could avenge it by destroying those he considered responsible, thereby giving up his whole future. But even in that past, Bardock reaches back towards the future with the hope merely of protecting and sustaining what little he's already created, which seems set to yield resolution in Goku now. And it wasn't done in a mawkish or inappropriately sentimental way, either - Bardock doesn't even think he's seriously asking for anything that might be granted, and Oil steps all over it by 'wishing on a star' for food. It's just the right tone for Dragon Ball (and a nice little tonal counter to Granolah's Whatever-it-takes gravitas).

[Koitsukai]

An underwhelming chapter for me, after last month's, at least on a busy first read. We'll see later how I feel.

About the wish, I don't think a wish was actually made (it's being kept vague on purpose), but even if it was made and his kids were sort of protected through their childhood, it shouldn't necessarily affect Bardock.
I mean, Bardock dies anyway and Goku and Raditz will still survive. The dragon can find other ways to get Kakarotto safe out of Vegeta-sei, without Bardock. So I'm not buying he won because of Toronbo.

I still don't fully understand how he won, I believe Gas was getting a little frustrated and exhausted, so props to Bardy for his endurance and resilience, but I still cannot put my head around the HOW. Did he become that much stronger? where was he drawing strenght from? was it a really great and immediate zenkai? that aura sure was interesting, it looked like Sign, too. It wasn't, obviously.
He wasn't putting a dent on normal Gas, and ended up overwhelming Beast Gas, with a signature move, too, that was sweet. Defeated Baby Gas is cute as hell.

I'd like to hear some thoughts about his power up, because I have none at the moment.

I remember people wondering where's the tail in chapter 77, and now we know what happened to it. It's grown back by Minus, so joke's on you Gas.


I'm not too happy about Elecc "sparing" Bardock, either. Seems like a lazy way to let him live. I was actually expecting some rushed escape leaving the Heats no other option but to let him escape, because Freeza is about to land. But here he is just neverminding him.


Also, nice to see how the dragon gets you off world. I guess Broly was like "yeah, please, and NOW, if you don't mind? thanks" in the movie, lol.

[FortuneSSJ]

Underwhelming chapter.

Did Bardock get a normal saiyan power up or was the dragon that made sure he would survive to be with his sons a little longer?! Hopefully Toyotaro will clarify that later. I'm not sure what useful information to beat Gas they can get from this.

I liked the parallels with Goku vs Freeza. Both Bardock/Goku refused to run away from their fights.

[OLKv3]

Some thoughts on this chapter:
-The writing seems to make Monaito's wish ambiguous, but I have a few predictions:
1. Monaito simply told the dragon to go away
2. Monaito made a wish for Granolah
It couldn't be a wish for Bardock, because we see him beat Gas with a bit of determination (and possibly zenkai boosting), and surely it couldn't be for Bardock's kids, since Raditz is...well yeah. I don't know which of the two I would prefer, so I'll have to see.
-The action is really good again. 'Nuff said
-I appreciate the end bit with Elec alluding to Freeza's "zero saiyajin kinkaku"; it makes Bardock's "gut feelings" in DB minus more plausible.
-I am still a bit lost about Bardock's motivation tbh. Did he not save Granolah and Monaito out of empathy, or did he say them because he instinctively saw Gas and Elec as enemies and did not want them to win?

Overall...I can't give it a rating now, maybe I'll make my mind later.

He did it to protect Granolah, but then got into the fight and simply wanted to win

[Lionel]

Have to admit I appreciate the shrewdness of Elec with his businesslike prose. Gas is expressing a bit more depth by inquiring of Bardock's motives for fighting. Don't believe we saw too much of those sorts of questions in the original manga except for a few instances like Trunks question to Cell on why he's doing what he's doing.

The fight itself I didn't much care for. Bardock was decent enough but this whole "growing and evolving past our limits" in the middle of a battle without any sort of healing is a bit grating. It's a phenomenon that wasn't really present originally except for Broly in the movies and the zenkais which became defunct for the Z-Warriors after Freeza. Now the quality is, I guess universally prescribed for pertinent Saiyans of the series right now. Honestly I'd like to see it get taken down a notch in general. Aim for a vulnerable spot that causes the muscles to seize up or motor functions to be impaired.

[nato25]

God damn I don't think I've disliked a chapter more than this one. A bardock fight should be one of the hypest around!

That wish... If it actually went through to the 2 ball dragon, what does that even mean for the series... Has that wish had any effect on the lives of raditz and goku? It's just very obnoxious.

Does the dragon ask for permission every time he moves anyone? What about Broly in the super movie? Or when all the namekians moved to earth. I feel like these issues could easily be avoided but showing them in such ways just causes trouble for the series. Could have just been a panel of monaito hearing from the dragon he refuses to leave and I would have been much more cool with that as we have precedent.

And elec knowing about Freeza's plans... I dunno man. It would be really cool if we get a panel of him having a meeting with dodoria or zarbon and they feed him information. I might be hanging on to the bardock special too tight, but bardock content from then has only got worse in quality.

Even bardock beating Gas just seems unearned. He was getting beaten even before any power ups, yet somehow still pulls off a win? In an era where power levels weren't exceeding like 10,000. Why couldn't we just have a fun easily matched fight. And did we need yet another katchin reference...

Possibly my least favourite chapter ever, stop messing with the og lore please, if you can add to it (which I feel has been done successfully in the past), great, if not, please just leave it alone.

[TKA]

I cannot stress enough how stupid it is for this plot point to be introduced.

If it's a bait and switch and Monaito didn't actually wish for Goku and Raditz to "thrive" - cool, what's the point of introducing this plot point then?

If it's played straight - why would you undermine everything Goku as a character is and has done by saying "Actually it was his destiny because someone made a wish"?

This is fanfiction-level writing. It introduces nothing of value, and actively takes away from things.

---------

I am tired of Gas always going "Now it's time to get serious," and then not actually getting serious. And then he does it again. And again. It's been this same song and dance for months. At least he only did it twice with Bardock, good Lord.

And on the topic of Bardock, did we need a whole chapter devoted to this detour? This felt like a bardock fan wrote a chapter so Bardock could "shine". All we needed was a flashback showing a few pages of Bardock besting a berserk Gas. That's all. We didn't need pages and pages of him doing moves, or breaking his leg or giving speeches about how great Saiyans are. Whenever Vegeta did that in the original series, it usually followed up with him losing because the saiyans aren't supposed to be held up high; they're a race of bloodthirsty savages lol. It's like all subtext of this specific thing just flew right under Toyotaro's radar.

Anyway, this chapter is garbo and this arc is garbo. But at least it's aiming higher than glorified Toei movie, The Moro Arc.

---------

Addendum: After years of fan mangas where Bardock transforms, and a decade after Episode of Bardock, a fanboy has finally gotten Bardock to get a new "form" or powerup in the mainline "canon". Three cheers for fanboyism winning out in the end, appealing to the most base enjoyment of the series possible.

It sure is boring how everyone always contorts themselves into falling into these eugenics-y, biological determinism tropes. Toriyama expressly shat on those concepts, yet here we are 30 years later wit hthis.

[LightBing]

Well wasn’t it weird how only Bardock, among all the Saiyans, smelled that something was wrong out of Freeza recalling everyone? It kind of makes sense that he got some hint of it in the past. He wasn’t outright told so, by the way.

Yeah it's weird because it portrays the Saiyans as apathic or worse actually stupid. But you can shrug off this in Minus because it doesn't dwell about what Bardock's resistance materializes in and if he has any supporters.

It was pretty much told so, only Super filler Goku wouldn't get it: "Saiyans will be gone soon anyway, something Elec told me", Elec later "You really don't know what Freeza's planning? Don't be surprised if a meteor falls on you."
How more blatant can you get? Really don't get why Toyotarõ had to include this.

I'd like to hear some thoughts about his power up, because I have none at the moment.

Either the power up is generic shounen "power of friendship" or a unique Saiyan transformation since he has an aura and Gas says Saiyans shouldn't have anything besides Oozaru.

Regardless it doesn't feel Dragon Ball, with only one exception (Vegeta vs Beerus) that I remember, there's isn't a single mid-battle power up that wasn't foreshadowed or explained.

[emperior]

And the end-note (from the serialisation itself?) seems to point exclusively in that direction as well, given that it says "All you need is 'determination to win'!!!", so I think it should be taken seriously as key.

Where did you see this end note? I don’t see it on MangaPlus.

Either the power up is generic shounen "power of friendship" or a unique Saiyan transformation since he has an aura and Gas says Saiyans shouldn't have anything besides Oozaru.

Regardless it doesn't feel Dragon Ball, with only one exception (Vegeta vs Beerus) that I remember, there's isn't a single mid-battle power up that wasn't foreshadowed or explained.

Ever since Battle of Gods, Toriyama came up with this idea of Saiyans improving during a fight, which wasn’t quite really a thing in the original (it was always post-fight). I think that Vegeta just got a rage boost in Battle of Gods. It was Goku who actually improved during his fight with Beerus.

Then, in Super’s anime this was used more with Black showing the same mid-fighting improvement attitude. And in the tournament of power, I would argue in both mediums - though the anime made it more explicit - Saiyans improved during the fighting. Goku’s Ultra Instinct is an obvious example, then Vegeta too got his own power-up. And Broly was the incarnation of this concept.

So it seems like they reiterated on this idea, and to showcase that Bardock went through a power boost Toyotaro gave him an aura (which makes sense as a visual hint). I hope that this aura of Bardock won’t turn out to be some kind of form that Goku will later use. I don’t think that Bardock needs a form.

[OLKv3]

God damn I don't think I've disliked a chapter more than this one. A bardock fight should be one of the hypest around!

That wish... If it actually went through to the 2 ball dragon, what does that even mean for the series... Has that wish had any effect on the lives of raditz and goku? It's just very obnoxious.

Does the dragon ask for permission every time he moves anyone? What about Broly in the super movie? Or when all the namekians moved to earth. I feel like these issues could easily be avoided but showing them in such ways just causes trouble for the series. Could have just been a panel of monaito hearing from the dragon he refuses to leave and I would have been much more cool with that as we have precedent.

And elec knowing about Freeza's plans... I dunno man. It would be really cool if we get a panel of him having a meeting with dodoria or zarbon and they feed him information. I might be hanging on to the bardock special too tight, but bardock content from then has only got worse in quality.

Even bardock beating Gas just seems unearned. He was getting beaten even before any power ups, yet somehow still pulls off a win? In an era where power levels weren't exceeding like 10,000. Why couldn't we just have a fun easily matched fight. And did we need yet another katchin reference...

Possibly my least favourite chapter ever, stop messing with the og lore please, if you can add to it (which I feel has been done successfully in the past), great, if not, please just leave it alone.

The dragon can't forcibly move someone stronger than it against their will. We saw this in the original when Goku denied Porunga from bringing him to Earth. This means Broly was mentally screaming SOMEBODY SAVE ME and allowed the voice to help