Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:02 pm

emperior wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:42 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:51 pm And the end-note (from the serialisation itself?) seems to point exclusively in that direction as well, given that it says "All you need is 'determination to win'!!!", so I think it should be taken seriously as key.
Where did you see this end note? I don’t see it on MangaPlus.
It was in the plot summaries that did the rounds on Twitter - I assume it's a translation of the Japanese end-text that tends to appear at the end of each serialised instalment in the magazine proper but never makes it onto the Viz online release, though I may have misinterpreted. If I haven't misinterpreted, though, it speaks pretty strongly in favour of a "My mind's always on destruction winning and nothing else, that's why there's no limit to my power" sort of interpretation, rather than anything else.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:10 pm

I would have posted earlier, but I've been looking for something positive to say since this morning and... sorry, I've got nothing.

Kemuri07 and TKA nailed this shit right on the head; my thoughts exactly. Goku's thriving is now foretold. In the worst case scenario, that's a literal wish made to Toronbo, but even in the best case, it's either metaphorical or left pointlessly ambiguous for no reason. Why even fucking entertain the idea? Predestiny is stupid and shits on everything the series stood for thematically.

I get that Toyotaro is deliberately contrasting Bardock's "future" angle with Granolah's "past" one, and it might even be the answer to the arc's thematic premise, but there are far better ways you can write this. Enforcing a wish element that ties into Goku's upbringing is completely unnecessary.

To add insult to injury, we have been keenly aware of just about everything that transpired this month. For what purpose did we need to be shown a bunch of stuff we were already told? What does this meaningfully add? It's just fanservice with a bland grit power-up. The action and generic dialogue between Bardock and Gas is so forgettable that the only thing I can remember is that one ridiculous panel where Bardock's kick makes his leg look disjointed or something.

Lastly, for fuck's sake, why do we need the Heeters to clue Bardock in on Freeza's genocide? One of the things I really liked about his character in Minus/Broly is that he's one of the only Saiyans to think critically about the fact that his entire race was randomly gathered in one location at a tyrant's behest. Having him learn the truth incidentally diminishes all that.

Chapter sucks. Arc is mid at best and has dragged its heels longer than I have ever seen the manga do. When does it end?!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:35 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:10 pm When does it end?!
Somehow not any time soon considering Goku needs to get his powerup and fight Gas (yeah.. we're still fighting him which feels redundant after the flashback now), Granolah needs to do something and who knows what else since every arc needs to end with a twist (see Infinite Zamasu or Planet Moro)

I don't know what the V-Jump Editor guy was thinking when he said it's ending "very soon" at December 2021. It already felt bizarre back then and now we know it wasn't really true either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:44 pm

Two things:

1. I'm beginning to wonder if Oatmeal might have Bardock's consciousness in it somehow.

2. I think Raditz will come back soon and thrive somehow.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:09 pm

emperior wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:29 amMaybe the tail will be restored by Monaito’s healing.
It would be yet another contrast to the future, as we see at least twice a Namekuseijin cutting a Saiyan or half-Saiyan tail off.
emperior wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:29 amI don’t think we will see more of Bardock in the next chapter but I wouldn’t mind it if we did.
I mean, there are stuff to be shown if Toyotaro wants it. Freeza is seemingly there, so Bardock could overhear something. There's the thing with the tail that I mentioned. We could see Bardock returning to Vegeta for some post commentaries or something, Bardock starting to understanding what the Heeters said and starting to piece together clues until he learns that Freeza is asking around about Super Saiyan, etc. I don't know, some sort of little conclusion to a chapter that ended almost right after a battle was finished.

Still eager to see how Goku will (re)act after finally remember his parents, though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:21 pm

emperior wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:42 pm Ever since Battle of Gods, Toriyama came up with this idea of Saiyans improving during a fight, which wasn’t quite really a thing in the original (it was always post-fight). I think that Vegeta just got a rage boost in Battle of Gods. It was Goku who actually improved during his fight with Beerus.

Then, in Super’s anime this was used more with Black showing the same mid-fighting improvement attitude. And in the tournament of power, I would argue in both mediums - though the anime made it more explicit - Saiyans improved during the fighting. Goku’s Ultra Instinct is an obvious example, then Vegeta too got his own power-up. And Broly was the incarnation of this concept.

So it seems like they reiterated on this idea, and to showcase that Bardock went through a power boost Toyotaro gave him an aura (which makes sense as a visual hint). I hope that this aura of Bardock won’t turn out to be some kind of form that Goku will later use. I don’t think that Bardock needs a form.
That's a good observation. Goku versus Beerus is a good example, although I always associated his improvement akin to Ginyu getting used to a new body(SSJG here). In that context it might be the best example of this idea from Toriyama.

The anime examples just by the inconsistent writing, are harder to take seriously as using the concept or doing whatever.
Black seems pretty generic and he was getting used to Goku's body.

Certainly agree the concept is fully with UI in the anime, somewhat in the manga. But UI has been foreshadowed, it's the same as SSJ.
It follows the same rules as "old Dragon Ball" perhaps with a mix of this new idea.
Broly wasn't a reference to the old Broly? Certainly could be a mix of both.

Regardless, I don't think the concept works here. Even in the examples mentioned there's a clutch, SSJG or UI or the Legendary SSJ.

Plus we followed a Saiyan for his whole life and a bunch of other Saiyans for many battles, the concept can't just appear out of thin air and ignore all precedents.
Even when Toriyama makes up new stuff, it usually at least kinda works. This Bardock power up falls flat and opposed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:05 pm

It's a good point about the strength, but it's problematic beyond broly I think even if your solution solves that. What about vegeta on namek for instance. Its a decision that adds a lot of complications where there was none before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:45 pm

Minor thing here

But why didn't Monaito just wish for Bardock to be the strongest in the universe? If he could just dig deep to beat Gas, that means the gulf in their power wasn't that great. One wish and it would've solved everything.

And this, friends, is why I said many months ago that this plot point breaks the story.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:48 pm

Because that would put Bardock above Freeza, able to send back the latter's technique. However, he can't beat Freeza if we are to have a manga about Goku's adventure and growth on Earth (thankfully, that doesn't mean Bardock can't survive it, though! :)).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:03 pm

This chapter epitomized why I wish Dragon Ball Minus never happened.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:11 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:51 pm And I guess it's arguable that this total focus (Winners' Instinct?) isn't something Whis could ever teach Goku himself, either, since this would be specific to a life-or-death battle, and that's one thing Whis (by his nature, and despite his power) will never experience, but something which Goku's experienced many times (as has Bardock, naturally). It also has a neat linkage to the earlier comments by Beerus on thinking solely about Destruction providing him with limitless power to destroy - Bardock cares about other things more broadly (even if he doesn't know why), but once he's in the fight, it's his fight, and it's all about getting the victory - and his Saiyan nature reacted with all the power he needed to net that win. It's a simple thing, but maybe in Goku's case a basic lesson like that has the advantage of being able to align with the situation at hand, with Goku's own innate nature (both as a Saiyan and as a Martial Artist prone to getting into Life-or-Death scrapes), and with the need for simple tranquility that Ultra Instinct requires most fundamentally - it would be 'charged' differently by this new particularised focus, but wouldn't be in contravention of what's already been established. Maybe it's what Goku needs to hear, and how he needs to change the technique. We'll find out - looking forward to it, actually.
I feel like Vegeta in-universe may take something out of all this Bardock stuff regarding what he needs to fully use Ultra Ego too. Probably it won't come into play now because that's not the focus of the plot, but maybe in the end of this arc.

Basically, Vegeta doesn't need to fight with his mind only on destruction to fully use Hakai's power. That's Beerus way of using his instincts to achieve "unlimited" power. So Vegeta should also find his own path, and after this chapter I think the best way is for Vegeta to simply fight using his Saiyan instincts. Without thinking about atoning for other people's sin, guilt or doubts that weigh down his mind, just focusing only in the fight and defeating the opponent. Bardock don't let anything hold him back during battle. Being fully immersed in the battle is also what made Vegeta awaken Ultra Ego.

Goku will also likely somehow incorporate these Saiyan instincts into his Ultra Instinct, as contradictory as it may seem (will we see a "fire in the eyes" version of Ultra Instinct, as Gas said?)
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:18 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:03 pm This chapter epitomized why I wish Dragon Ball Minus never happened.
What? Dragonball Minus has nothing to do with this. The Broly movie's rendition of Dragonball Minus is a great addition to Toriyama's series and it's all gains.

This story is bad because Toyotaro isn't doing a good job of telling a compelling story.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:21 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:45 pm Minor thing here

But why didn't Monaito just wish for Bardock to be the strongest in the universe? If he could just dig deep to beat Gas, that means the gulf in their power wasn't that great. One wish and it would've solved everything.

And this, friends, is why I said many months ago that this plot point breaks the story.
Because Monaito knows the dragon operates under monkey paw logic and wouldn't want to reward his savior with a shortened lifespan. He specifically states in this very chapter that using the dragon for selfish needs would have brought about their doom and that it's a good thing Bardock refused to partake in it.

Arc sucks but now we're just looking for reasons to hate it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:24 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:45 pm Minor thing here

But why didn't Monaito just wish for Bardock to be the strongest in the universe? If he could just dig deep to beat Gas, that means the gulf in their power wasn't that great. One wish and it would've solved everything.

And this, friends, is why I said many months ago that this plot point breaks the story.
Why didn't Roshi ask for the Earth to be moved to prevent the Saiyans from invading? Why didn't Vegeta ask for Gohan and Gotenks to be sent to the Kaioshins' planet to face Buu? Why didn't Zamasu wished for all humans to be wiped out using the power of the Super Dragon Balls?

Being able to question decisions made by the author within the narrative does not mean that the story is broken, what kind of logic is this

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:07 pm

So, this whole 'when I fight I think of nothing but victory' thing's gonna affect Goku I'm guessing in a similar way how Beerus did Vegeta with 'when I fight my mind is only on destruction'. Maybe Goku'll just stop 'building up' every fight and go straight for victory from now on :think: naah

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:40 pm

I liked the chapter. The fact that it took place at night time made it look visually distinct (including increased shading), and it also provides an excuse for the rest of Heata not to notice Toronbo (turning the sky dark during the daytime).

Bardock's power is derived from his instinct to win/survive. Not Zenkai (he was only healed of minor injuries by Monaito earlier, the leaks that implied he was healed in the middle of battle were incorrect), it's not a "false" Super Saiyan, and it's not God ki, although it will likely be the key to Goku (and Vegeta) rising to the next level (possibly with their God forms).
TKA wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:01 pm If it's played straight - why would you undermine everything Goku as a character is and has done by saying "Actually it was his destiny because someone made a wish"?
If this wish was actually granted (it is ambiguous as presented), it basically amounts to good luck, which is something that Goku has been smothered with for the entire series. Instead of plot armor, it MIGHT be be a plot device, and it seems to have worn off once Gohan is born. For that matter, it might not even have been applicable against Piccolo Daimao who is powerful enough to kill Shenlong.
This is fanfiction-level writing. It introduces nothing of value, and actively takes away from things.

And on the topic of Bardock, did we need a whole chapter devoted to this detour? This felt like a bardock fan wrote a chapter so Bardock could "shine". All we needed was a flashback showing a few pages of Bardock besting a berserk Gas. That's all. We didn't need pages and pages of him doing moves, or breaking his leg or giving speeches about how great Saiyans are. Whenever Vegeta did that in the original series, it usually followed up with him losing because the saiyans aren't supposed to be held up high; they're a race of bloodthirsty savages lol. It's like all subtext of this specific thing just flew right under Toyotaro's radar.

It sure is boring how everyone always contorts themselves into falling into these eugenics-y, biological determinism tropes. Toriyama expressly shat on those concepts, yet here we are 30 years later wit this.
Seeing Bardock's fateful battle was one of the promises of the arc. A little fanservice is okay, and this wasn't just a pointless detour anyway. We'll have to see how this is used moving forward, but it already seems pretty well connected to me.

Aside from criticizing anatomy (really?) and other paneling choices, have a feeling Toriyama is the one responsible for Bardock's characterization, the utilization of instinct power, and especially the wish - I HIGHLY doubt Toyotaro would feel at liberty to come up with this plot point.
Addendum: After years of fan mangas where Bardock transforms, and a decade after Episode of Bardock, a fanboy has finally gotten Bardock to get a new "form" or powerup in the mainline "canon". Three cheers for fanboyism winning out in the end, appealing to the most base enjoyment of the series possible.
It's a powerup that anyone could reach with the right attitude, which is the point. A far cry from a new "form". Like I said, probably Toriyama's idea, and it could have been way worse.

Re: the wish - what Yuji and Marz said. Monaito's priority was to help Bardock, not live to see another day.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:42 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:18 pm
Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:03 pm This chapter epitomized why I wish Dragon Ball Minus never happened.
What? Dragonball Minus has nothing to do with this. The Broly movie's rendition of Dragonball Minus is a great addition to Toriyama's series and it's all gains.

This story is bad because Toyotaro isn't doing a good job of telling a compelling story.
Dragon Ball Minus recontextualises everything you know about Bardock as a character, not just with how he's written, but how much of an impact he has on Goku's journey. Toyotaro very clearly wanted to expand on that revision of Bardock's characterisation and ties to Goku's origins but failed so badly at it that retroactively devalued not just Goku's character, but major themes in the original story as well (even more than Dragon Ball Minus already did).

This whole story beat of Bardock and Gas fighting and Bardock ambiguously having an existential effect on the growth of Goku would have never happened if just the mere concept of Dragon Ball Minus didn't exist.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:48 pm

Toriyama wrote a broad outline for the arc and maybe some specific plot points that occasionally seem to shine through, but I will remind everyone that Bardock's inclusion was exclusively Toyotaro's idea. He is also a self-proclaimed fan of the character. Toyotaro is responsible for the presentation of this story, and clearly came up with a lot of ideas himself.

This chapter reeks of a fanfic writer's wet dream in every way imaginable to me.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:15 pm

Absolutely outraged that the author is using a character they enjoy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:20 pm

Elec desperately needs some aim assist.

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