Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

He is also a self-proclaimed fan of the character.

I must ask, since I remember people saying the very same thing toward Ooishi Naho, what's your point with that?

[UpFromTheSkies]

Toriyama wrote a broad outline for the arc and maybe some specific plot points that occasionally seem to shine through, but I will remind everyone that Bardock's inclusion was exclusively Toyotaro's idea. He is also a self-proclaimed fan of the character. Toyotaro is responsible for the presentation of this story, and clearly came up with a lot of ideas himself.

This chapter reeks of a fanfic writer's wet dream in every way imaginable to me.

Toriyama still has to approve everything Toyotaro does though, and he's not shy about telling him when there is something he doesn't like or wants changed

[Mr Baggins]

I must ask, since I remember people saying the very same thing toward Ooishi Naho, what's your point with that?

Depending on your consumption of Super, my point isn't anything remarkable. It was a disagreement with the notion that Toriyama was "probably" majorly involved this month. Everything in this chapter feels especially designed to give Bardock his moments in the spotlight while adding very little of substance to the arc's narrative or progression. It's distinctly un-DB in my view, but also distinctly fan oriented.

Whether you enjoy that kind of thing is your prerogative, and I imagine those looking for Bardock fanservice specifically will love this chapter. I don't. That's all.

[batistabus]

Toriyama wrote a broad outline for the arc and maybe some specific plot points that occasionally seem to shine through, but I will remind everyone that Bardock's inclusion was exclusively Toyotaro's idea. He is also a self-proclaimed fan of the character. Toyotaro is responsible for the presentation of this story, and clearly came up with a lot of ideas himself.

This chapter reeks of a fanfic writer's wet dream in every way imaginable to me.

The way I see it, Toyo really wanted to use Bardock so Toriyama decided how he should be used. It was Toyotaro's idea to add Bardock, yes, but he also mentions that he was especially enthusiastic about asking Toriyama all sorts of questions about what kind of person he is and how he should act. Bardock is heavily featured throughout the arc and contributes to the journey of just about every character. Even if Toyotaro went rogue and just shoed in Bardock around Toriyama's completed draft, Toyotaro's idea about Bardock as a character comes directly from Toriyama. Toyotaro apparently created Merus, but Toriyama made him an angel...so who is responsible for that character?

Anyway, this is largely speculation on both sides. While I find the "who came up with what" speculation fun, it's pointless when judging the actual work in front of us. The "fanfic" criticism is - and has been - a lazy way to scapegoat Toyotaro for anything anyone might not like about the DBS manga. Is it fanfic-territory to use Bardock at all? He had a powerful moment (against a naïve and inexperienced character), but he got his ass kicked before and after and needed help to get the job done. Above that, the story - from the first act until now - has revolved around instinct. You don't have to like that concept, but Bardock plays directly into it.

[Grimlock]

Everything in this chapter feels especially designed to give Bardock his moments in the spotlight while adding very little of substance to the arc's narrative or progression.

But how can you tell this adds very little of substance to the narrative? Isn't all of this happening to drive Goku to something or somewhere (maybe even Vegeta)? We haven't seen the outcome of any of this, so... I really fail to see how this is "little", as of now.

It's distinctly un-DB in my view, but also distinctly fan oriented.

While I can see where you're coming from, this is not a matter of "un-Dragon Ball", it may be "un-Toriyama", sure, but not the former. Once you understand that everything Toriyama did, does and will ever do will be devoid of heavily-focused flashbacks, few emotional moments, and such, that's when you must realize that's a trait of the person (that will reflect on the work itself, obviously), but that doesn't mean it isn't or it can't be the Dragon Ball you know.

This should more than expected once you knew that another person would take over. "Another person" means another point of view, trait, particularities. You can't expect someone to reproduce faithfully the way the original author always did. That's unrealistic expectation to say the least.

Like I said in another thread, to me Toriyama uses way too little flashbacks for my taste. He should have used more. So I'm glad that the one who took over does exactly that, provides more flashbacks. I don't want anything close to Naruto, of course, but too little of something may also be an issue. That's Toyotaro's trait, and one I welcome and it doesn't feel "un-Dragon Ball" to me.

Then again, I don't know why I'm talking about this, I understand it's your opinion. Just wanted to say that because it's someone else who's doing this, it should be expected that things would be different, but not necessarily to the point of "losing" its features.

Is it fanfic-territory to use Bardock at all?

Seems to be the case. Noticed people can't even hear or read the word "Bardock" without shouting "fanservice". Last time I said this was in light in humor, but it seems to be a real thing.

[Koitsukai]

Half of this arc is basically Minus part 2. Toriyama already opened the door to the predestined bs and Toyo is just running wild with it. I don't know why people want to separate Akira from this(Bardock and the arc), either everybody goes down with the ship or nobody does.

I feel this chapter could've been told in half the space. And it isn't the first chapter to suffer from this either.
I don't really have a problem with the actual direction of the story, I'd like to see where it's going, but seriously, it's like it comes with anime filler included.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

The fighting looked pretty cool, but otherwise this chapter sucked. The more we get of Minus Bardock, the worse he becomes. A true Gary Stu character at this point.

[The Accountant]

Look, I really didn't enjoy this chapter. "I'd wish that my sons end up thriving." (MANGA Plus) Was it necessary to include such a throwaway line? I hope this pays off somehow. But based on Toyotaro's track record, I don't think it will. I guess predestination is just the trend these days. Elec shoots a dozen shots and misses all of them?! 40 pages of flashback fighting... Have to wait a whole month to see what happens next.

[wertham]

I don't get it. A lot of you are talking as if Goku was never predestined to something before Minus' existence, when it's totally the opposite: his father Bardock saw that Kakarot was predestined to fight Freeza. So the very same criticisms can be done to Bardock's 90s TV Special: Goku is not a no one anymore, his father was the only one who knew that Freeza was planning to eradicate the saiyans and fought Freeza, the fight between Goku and Freeza was always Goku's fate, etc. And even without the special, Goku and his brother were the 50% of the saiyans who survived the destruction of Planet Vegeta. Now they are for a reason: they weren't special or extremely lucky, but a casual wish made them to survive the destruction of their planet. Nowadays we know that a few more saiyans survived (Tarble, Broly, Paragus, the random saiyans that appeared in the Broly movie), so they are even less special than before.

I get that we are adults know and these new plot points are coming in 2022, but I think that there isn't any offensive take on Bardock and Goku or Raditz's fate in this new version that wasn't already in the original manga or TV Special. In fact, it is only another take on the same events: this flashback is the equivalent of Bardock getting visions from the future and learning from Dodoria that Freeza wants to destroy his planet. I love the 90s TV Special and the epicness of it, and always regretted that these parts weren't granted as canon with Dragon Ball Minus' addition. Now we have something equivalent, and I think it's an improvement over what we had only with Minus or the Broly movie.

About what lesson can Goku and Vegeta learn from this flashback, I think that the key is that they must fight only focused on winning and nothing else, with the "nothing else" part being the real point of it. Goku always fought to improve or test himself, and Vegeta always had his pride above all else. We'll see in next chapters.

And yes, I'm really curious about what part is Toyotaro's and what is Toriyama's

[batistabus]

Re: the dynamic between Bardock, Monaito, and Gas this chapter.

Jordan Lee made a great point: "The line between selfishness and selflessness is blurred so many times in this chapter". Monaito wants to save Bardock out of graciousness, but he also doesn't want to feel responsible for Bardock's death when he already saved them twice. Despite the fact that Bardock is saving someone, he's insisting he's doing it for selfish purposes. Is this related to the Secret of Selfishness? Meanwhile, Gas is fighting based on Elec's will and he loses.

Bardock achieved great power this chapter, but he could not have without Monaito or Gas. Bardock was driven to express his true nature in contrast to both of those characters. Monaito gave him the perfect opportunity to flee; he refused. Gas made all sorts of guesses attempting to explain Bardock's ideals; all wrong. By digging into those feelings repeatedly, Bardock became the purest version of himself and reached a new level.

[emperior]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like Bardock’s wish was just a small characterisation moment. In that regards, he was no different from King Vegeta and Paragus who also wanted their sons to thrive. Considering how Raditz did not, I doubt that the wish was effectively made. But it’s left vague and I don’t mind it. The translation we got may also not be perfect, as before some were translating it as “I wish they will grow up well”.

Re: the dynamic between Bardock, Monaito, and Gas this chapter.

Jordan Lee made a great point: "The line between selfishness and selflessness is blurred so many times in this chapter". Monaito wants to save Bardock out of graciousness, but he also doesn't want to feel responsible for Bardock's death when he already saved them twice. Despite the fact that Bardock is saving someone, he's insisting he's doing it for selfish purposes. Is this related to the Secret of Selfishness? Meanwhile, Gas is fighting based on Elec's will and he loses.

Bardock achieved great power this chapter, but he could not have without Monaito or Gas. Bardock was driven to express his true nature in contrast to both of those characters. Monaito gave him the perfect opportunity to flee; he refused. Gas made all sorts of guesses attempting to explain Bardock's ideals; all wrong. By digging into those feelings repeatedly, Bardock became the purest version of himself and reached a new level.

I like this take. I did not realize how much the chapter is about selfishness and selflessness. Which connects straight to Ultra Instinct, which is the mastery of the former. It seems like again it will be all a fact of mentality. Without the right one, and without that pure instinct of winning and surviving, Goku won’t be able to power up his Ultra Instinct. As always, it all comes back to self improvement. As expected, of course.

Now, if they can get rid of the silver hair I would not mind that at all. Even if it’s cool, I think seeing Goku fight in his base form would be cooler.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Lastly, for fuck's sake, why do we need the Heeters to clue Bardock in on Freeza's genocide? One of the things I really liked about his character in Minus/Broly is that he's one of the only Saiyans to think critically about the fact that his entire race was randomly gathered in one location at a tyrant's behest. Having him learn the truth incidentally diminishes all that.

Bardock wasn't the only one who found Frieza's attitude strange. But he was the only one who felt that "death was on the way" to the point of sending his son to another planet. It's not on the same level as literally having visions of the future, but this has always felt more like a plot device that we knew needed to happen rather than a natural and justified distrust, especially since this is all caused by a single action from.Freeza. It is not a succession of strange attitudes that leads to this.

And anyway, Bardock doesn't even suspect any of this the moment he hears from the Heeters so he doesn't really learn anything. It's just another thing to make him put the pieces together

[PurestEvil]

Elec desperately needs some aim assist.

Elec missed all of Bardock's vital organs.
ALL OF THEM!

[Yuji]

Is it fanfic-territory to use Bardock at all?

Bardock is essentially a fanfiction OC so I think any inclusion of the character past his introduction will feel shoehorned. It's not so much the inclusion of Bardock that feels un-DB, it's the whole idea of dedicating an entire 45-page chapter to one massive flashback about the protagonist's father. This is something you'd see in Naruto or One Piece. Dragon Ball has never really dwelt on the past and flashbacks were used sparingly as a reminder to the audience or quick exposition, not as page filler or as a key plot beat. Dragon Ball especially never made a big deal out of Goku's heritage which was always unremarkable. I get what Toyotaro is going for here but the need to make everything and everyone special and unique is misplaced in this kind of series.

[Gt91]

I still don't fully understand how he won, I believe Gas was getting a little frustrated and exhausted, so props to Bardy for his endurance and resilience, but I still cannot put my head around the HOW. Did he become that much stronger? where was he drawing strenght from? was it a really great and immediate zenkai? that aura sure was interesting, it looked like Sign, too. It wasn't, obviously.
He wasn't putting a dent on normal Gas, and ended up overwhelming Beast Gas, with a signature move, too, that was sweet. Defeated Baby Gas is cute as hell.

I'd like to hear some thoughts about his power up, because I have none at the moment.

Exactly what I thought.
Wasn't that power-up too much for him? He was destroyed from Gas (base form), then Gas trasformed as well... how did he win?

[Cipher]

Depending on your consumption of Super, my point isn't anything remarkable. It was a disagreement with the notion that Toriyama was "probably" majorly involved this month. Everything in this chapter feels especially designed to give Bardock his moments in the spotlight while adding very little of substance to the arc's narrative or progression. It's distinctly un-DB in my view, but also distinctly fan oriented.

Toriyama literally took two panels out of the Freeza vs. Goku fight to gush about how much he liked the Bardock special, then years later tacked on an extraneous chapter to Jaco just to have a shot at writing him, and gave him a nearly unrelated first-third of his latest stand-alone Dragon Ball Super movie.

Like ...?

[Magnificent Ponta]

I feel like Vegeta in-universe may take something out of all this Bardock stuff regarding what he needs to fully use Ultra Ego too. Probably it won't come into play now because that's not the focus of the plot, but maybe in the end of this arc.

Yes, that's entirely possible - they both need to lean into their own natures, rather than the theoretical 'natures' the techniques/forms apparently embody. But even if they don't move past that right this instant, given the 'complementary opposites' aspect that Vegeta and Goku embody in their forms and approaches right now, and the fact that Dragon Ball Super is always (at least a little) about teamwork between these two, it's also possible that the immediate implementation of doing whatever it takes to win is that they fight Gas together - their various reasons for fighting alone often get in the way of victory. Just another possibility to bear in mind.

Minor thing here

But why didn't Monaito just wish for Bardock to be the strongest in the universe?

Because Toronbo would have just said "no can do", like he initially said no to Granolah.

It was only because Granolah was notably powerful on the Universal scale to begin with and had a long enough lifespan from which to condense that hypothetical gained power that Toronbo was able to propose the loophole at all. Neither element works in Bardock's favour. Additionally, it's worth noting that when the wish was made, Bardock had limits that would have defined the scope of the wish in ways that became irrelevant later in the battle.

Wasn't that power-up too much for him? He was destroyed from Gas (base form), then Gas trasformed as well... how did he win?

If bootleg Ultra Instinct can lift Master Roshi to be able to briefly tangle with Jiren, and a destructive instinct can lift Vegeta from bog-standard SSjB to getting a new form on the spot that's stronger than the official strongest guy in the Universe (and gets still stronger as he fights), then Bardock getting immediately much stronger than the more powerful Gas from what looks like an 'instinct' of his own simply seems to follow that trend. Combined with the Saiyan tendency to catch up rapidly mid-combat (which has been the status quo for about the last decade, as far as Toriyama is concerned), I'm not sure further explanation is really needed - jarring though it may seem.

[TKA]

Dragon Ball Minus recontextualises everything you know about Bardock as a character,

Man, I couldn't give less of a damn about people being upset that the Bardock from the old cartoon doesn't exist anymore. Because he does. In that old cartoon. The version introduced in Minus and expanded upon in Broly is a version of the character that works much better with what Toriyama wants the series to be, and actually strengthens the themes of the Saiyan arc rather than take away from them.

So again, this ain't Dragonball Minus' fault. This is Toyotaro failing at constructing a compelling narrative.

Why didn't Roshi ask for the Earth to be moved to prevent the Saiyans from invading? Why didn't Vegeta ask for Gohan and Gotenks to be sent to the Kaioshins' planet to face Buu? Why didn't Zamasu wished for all humans to be wiped out using the power of the Super Dragon Balls?

The answer to all your questions is "Because nobody had ever made wishes like that before". Ergo, the story had never introduced ideas like that. The story has now introduced the notion that you can simply wish to be the strongest. I won't question why people in the past didn't wish to be strong, but going forward I will now question why characters aren't making that wish.

Because Toronbo would have just said "no can do", like he initially said no to Granolah.

It was only because Granolah was notably powerful on the Universal scale to begin with

Nah, you're making stuff up. His power wasn't anything remarkable before. Do remember that Paragus in the Broly movie was considered an exceptionally strong guy by Limon and Cheelai, with his Power Level of 5000.

There's no reason to think Granolah is "universal scale".

Further, like I said months ago, how many years = 1 unit of power? We'll never know at this point. What's granolah's actual lifespan? Also will never be told to us. The Saiyans seem to live pretty long, so you're telling me the dragon can't make Bardock at least stronger than a guy this close to him in power already?

That doesn't work for me, brother. This is a consequence of not thinking about the rest of the shit in the series you're writing about. Toriyama, for all the complaints people have about him as a writer, always tried to explain why shit couldn't be done before, or why they're doing it now (those explanations are often clumsy, but at least he tries).

[emperior]

Presumably, even if Monaito would have thought of making Bardock stronger in exchange of some of his lifespan, Bardock would have still refused the wish, thus the outcome would have been the same.

Moreover, the fight is set in the past, so the point that characters now know of the trick does not hold up there.

I really don’t get the complaint. By the end of the arc it will be clear why such a wish is not feasible to do and why characters won’t make it.

Complaining about it while the arc is still going on is like complaining about Merus’ power when we still had no idea that he was an Angel.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

It is actually impressive how people still get extremely upset over the 16 pages that Toriyama drew as a bonus chapter for Jaco the Galactic Patrolman 8 years ago.