Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

While I agree with placing Freeza’s true form at Super Saiyan level in both serializations, I think we have fundamentally different views on what this Super Saiyan level is.

First, in the anime, SS3 Gotenks fought a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Vegeta describes it with the same wordplay used in RoF. This means, had Gotenks fought a genuine golden-haired Super Saiyan, the fight would play out differently.

Second, in the manga, if Super Saiyan were 50 times stronger than Shin, that would mean Zamasu is more than 50 times stronger than Shin and by extension even more than that stronger than Kibito. Going by how their fight played out, it doesn’t seem Zamasu was so absurdly above Kibito. For reference, Zamasu is stronger than SS Goku and Kibito is weaker than Shin.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the anime. Base Vegeta was just stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Zamasu's battle with Kibito doesn't mean anything, it was just training/sparring. If Zamasu isn't absurdly stronger than Kibito then he would be weaker than Namek Freeza and that's simply ridiculous. Let me remind you that Kibito was weaker than base Gohan from the Boo arc.

[Goku9001]

Some details have to be rethought because they create some consistency problems. For example, not only Base Goku isn’t always on SSG level, but his Super Saiyan form isn’t only Blue anymore. DBS both serializations and films have detracted from the idea that Goku and Vegeta would only use their normal and blue forms, they use golden and red forms as well.

Which isn't really an issue because Toriyama approved of the concept of Base Goku battling Frieza despite the changes being made in regards to Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. The only thing that would need to be rethought is scaling back both Goku and Frieza accordingly and Goku surpassing SSJ Gohan would be attributed to the special training done by Whis much like how Merus' training affected Goku.

The issue is that Base Goku only scaled up to Freeza because of his godly strength. Otherwise, we don’t know how he would fare in a normal state that doesn’t have that power, including if he would surpass SS Gohan. Whis special training amounted for their ability of using SSG and SSGSS without extra help. Basically, we read RoF, as if Goku was always in the SSG form when he is not transformed.

That would no longer be a requirement as Frieza explicitly does not scale up to any god tier character until he goes golden which is evident in his battle against Caulifa. Regardless, the anime did away the "Saiyan Beyond God" concept and scaled Golden Frieza up in proportion to Super Saiyan Blue despite the implications of it being Frieza's equivalent to Super Saiyan. Toriyama also made it clear that Whis' training amounted to Vegeta reaching god level through Whis' training alone in the anime. The manga also seemed to set up the events of Resurrection of F in Battle of Gods meaning that whatever changes that were made were conveyed in that exchange. Otherwise, the manga expects us to make a reference to what occurred in the movie. Because of the changes made in Battle of Gods, it can easily be inferred that Base Goku and Frieza were simply not god level when they battled without altering the events of Resurrection of F.

[Goku9001]

No, it's ridiculous to say that it was physically strenuous for Goku when he wasn't strained or winded from it at all. He was bored and flat-out said he'd rather resume his training at Kai's planet.

There is nothing to analyze or dissect about image training. It's exactly what its name implies, and how it was described -- an imaginary simulation based on how the user recalls their opponent's fighting style and movements (if they're not telepathically training with a partner). At every point in both the original series and Super, the characters ditch it for something more effective and only seem to do it when there are no alternatives available. It can help one moderately improve, otherwise there's nothing profound about it.

You are arguing semantics here. The point isn't whether or not Goku was winded from the exchange. The point is that Goku's battles with both Frieza and Cell alike were being physically reenacted in real-time which gave the impression that Goku was directly involved in those battles. There's absolutely no narrative purpose behind Goku battling the strongest foes he's ever battled let alone transforming as a Super Saiyan even in the real world to face them if the reader is meant to disregard it entirely. A trend that is consistent within the series is that Goku constantly trains and surpasses prior enemies as a result. Goku's statement made afterwards is a testament to that. He was preparing himself for a threat even stronger than everyone he encountered and his ability to fight Frieza, Cell, and Kid Buu presumably as a Super Saiyan is meant to demonstrate that core concept.

I don't disagree that Goku has more enjoyment through other means in regards to battling. However, I wouldn't use that as proof that the image training wasn't effective or that it didn't pose Goku any sort of real resistance. We are shown in the Moro arc through Vegeta where Vegeta prefers brute-forced training methods despite the fact that honing his spirit proved to be far more effective. In Vegeta's case, image training can easily be much more effective but that doesn't mean Vegeta never derived any sort of substantial growth from his physical training. That's hogwash.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the anime. Base Vegeta was just stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Zamasu's battle with Kibito doesn't mean anything, it was just training/sparring. If Zamasu isn't absurdly stronger than Kibito then he would be weaker than Namek Freeza and that's simply ridiculous. Let me remind you that Kibito was weaker than base Gohan from the Boo arc.

I would agree here. It can be argued that Kibito simply improved but Zamasu had a clear edge for the majority of the fight. His expressions were much more calm and lax compared to Kibito's who was straining himself the entire time. Because Zamasu is one of the strongest Kaioshin around, he should be much stronger than Frieza. His strength was why he was selected, after all. A Kaioshin weaker than Frieza would be contradictory to that.

[Hugo Boss]

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the anime. Base Vegeta was just stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Zamasu's battle with Kibito doesn't mean anything, it was just training/sparring. If Zamasu isn't absurdly stronger than Kibito then he would be weaker than Namek Freeza and that's simply ridiculous. Let me remind you that Kibito was weaker than base Gohan from the Boo arc.

Goku and Vegeta described Super Saiyan Blue in those instances as if their normal forms had the power of Super Saiyan God. It’s the same wordplay written in RoF, literally the same explanation. So, you read Gotenks vs. Copy Vegeta as if Copy Vegeta had SSG’s power. The issue is that plot point isn’t used in other instances, like in Champa, Zamasu, ToP and Broly story arcs.

I think I don’t understand in what you are basing your assessment about the shinjins’ strength, you may have to elaborate more on that. But it’s worth pointing out they don’t have brute strength in the traditional Dragon Ball sense, they are like jedis with Force abilities. So, while Base Gohan would have more arm strength than Kibito and possibly even Kaioshin, Gohan wouldn’t be able to defeat them without Super Saiyan, because they can use those magical abilities to hard-counter them. Zamasu is the only shinjin so far that envies that brute strength aspect and tried to add it to his body, but he can still beat Super Saiyan Goku despite not being physically stronger than him.

That would no longer be a requirement as Frieza explicitly does not scale up to any god tier character until he goes golden which is evident in his battle against Caulifa. Regardless, the anime did away the "Saiyan Beyond God" concept and scaled Golden Frieza up in proportion to Super Saiyan Blue despite the implications of it being Frieza's equivalent to Super Saiyan. Toriyama also made it clear that Whis' training amounted to Vegeta reaching god level through Whis' training alone in the anime. The manga also seemed to set up the events of Resurrection of F in Battle of Gods meaning that whatever changes that were made were conveyed in that exchange. Otherwise, the manga expects us to make a reference to what occurred in the movie. Because of the changes made in Battle of Gods, it can easily be inferred that Base Goku and Frieza were simply not god level when they battled without altering the events of Resurrection of F.

BoG and RoF films and adaptations followed the same plot points, but as you can see they are fundamentally different from how they play out in other DBS story arcs. Freeza’s battle power is just an example of it, but you also have Piccolo’s and even Goku’s himself. Piccolo being at the same time weaker than/as strong as Base Goku. Base Goku being as strong as/weaker than Final Form Freeza. And much more.

Any attempt of reconciling this events will undoubtedly result in headcanon territory, I tried it myself when those film story arcs were followed by Champa Arc, but it’s simply a case of internal inconsistency. We went through that once more with DBS Broly and will go through that again with the upcoming DBS Super Hero. You could attribute that to different schedule productions, resulting in different thought process when writing the fights.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to Freeza and his implications, we can't simply retcon RoF to have not been representative of anything, that's an entire major canonical story arc that's mostly the same in 2 mediums.

Ironically, the movies taken alone make more sense in that regard because there's really nothing from watching them only that has any niggling problems if you assume that the base, Super Saiyan, and god forms have noticeable but not gigantic differences between them by the time of the Broly movie.

In fact, I think that's still somewhat the intention personally. Al you need to do is scale down what Freeza, Goku, and Vegeta were operating at to a still very high level. I firmly stand by the notion that they operate at a level similar to Majin Buu in their base forms in accordance with Freeza's comments about Majin Buu, Goku defeating Majin Buu, and Goku fighting Uub's awakened power in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

[Cipher]

Goku Black did say he was letting Trunks live so he could come back stronger and make him stronger too. Just assumed he was getting zenkais since training conditions were rather poor in the future and Trunks was doing nothing besides hiding and getting his ass kicked. I agree that near death boosts stopped being a thing since Namek, but Future Trunks did go pretty far without proper training.

He tells Trunks to go get stronger, but it isn't exactly worded in a way that implies it's related to near-death power-ups. (If anything, it's the opposite, as he's telling him to go "get stronger" in a more active way in Japanese.)

Things really point to Black being unique in being able to access the near-death boosts at that level of power, due to the body-swapping.

I'm not sure what's quiet or assumed about Goku popping Cell's head like a balloon. Are we not supposed to take fights into account in a show about fighting? Getting some 10x stronger (If we take the fight he was about to start with Boo into account) in 4 years is really not that special when Goku was getting power ups this big within a week back on Namek.

Goku got power-ups that large on Namek because he was getting near-death power-ups and gravity training. There's a reason he's desperate to find new forms of training or transformations in every storyline after. Again, if he were (or anyone) were increasing by that manifold throughout normal training, we probably wouldn't have had the series come down on his base form being sub-Freeza in BoG. (I know I'm bringing up an element of the film while dismissing others based on its manga adaptation--although that line survives in intent--but I bring it up as one illustrative of the series'/Toriyama's overall worldview.)

I don't know what else to say about the image training. To make this argument convincingly, you would have to assert that Toyotaro's intent was to deliberately write out the God-absorption from BoG for future storylines, but have Goku be super-strong from the first chapter anyway, but also choose the most obtuse way possible to show it, in a chapter where the main point is Goku being frustrated with his lack of effective training. That doesn't pan out for me, especially when there's all the reason in the world just to want Super Saiyan Goku in a harmless action sequence in an action-light first chapter, but your mileage may vary.

For Cell: His head wouldn't pop like a balloon in real life. He'd have brains and muscles and stuff. Another knock against the real-world accuracy of Goku's image training.

I think you're severely underestimating the difference in power between Post Rosat Piccolo and Perfect Cell. Even reaching Goku's power from the Cell Games would be quite a feat that's not stated anywhere... The only explanatory we've seen from 17, manga-wise at least, is him telling Piccolo he hasn't even done any training. I have no doubts that was just meant to be a funny scene, but you're still reading something that wasn't spelled out anywhere. Even the bonus chapter only uses the Cell Jrs. to reinforce his strength rather than explain it. You're playing that same game of assuming you just talked about.

Kuririn: "I think I'm beginning to see how you got so strong." -Volume 8 backup comic

But as always, if the story tells me #17 got that strong doing nothing, I'll buy it, and wait for it to explicitly tell me another character got that strong by doing nothing before assuming it for anyone else. Again, it's too good about being clear when a large power-up has been obtained to assume they're there when no clear statements are given. Especially because it tends to come down on none being there when there aren't. (Battle of Gods, etc.)

Toyotaro presumably skipped RoF because we already had the movie version and the anime was adapting it... so how is it the conclusion that things actually played out differently?

Unless you assume a super-strong Goku from the image-training sequence, which I personally think is ludicrous, there's no way to square up base Goku's performance against a final form Freeza that knocks Gohan out in one punch in first form--as that portion of the movie hinges on an absorption of Super Saiyan God power in the movie version of Battle of Gods the manga seems to deliberately drop in anticipation of future storylines.

Resurrection "F" happened in broad strokes in the manga, which is what its bits of summary give us. But something or other must have been different from the strict events of the film for it to fit into the manga's altered continuity.

With regards to Freeza and his implications, we can't simply retcon RoF to have not been representative of anything, that's an entire major canonical story arc that's mostly the same in 2 mediums.

Ironically, the movies taken alone make more sense in that regard because there's really nothing from watching them only that has any niggling problems if you assume that the base, Super Saiyan, and god forms have noticeable but not gigantic differences between them by the time of the Broly movie.

In fact, I think that's still somewhat the intention personally. Al you need to do is scale down what Freeza, Goku, and Vegeta were operating at to a still very high level. I firmly stand by the notion that they operate at a level similar to Majin Buu in their base forms in accordance with Freeza's comments about Majin Buu, Goku defeating Majin Buu, and Goku fighting Uub's awakened power in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

I like to take a minimalist approach in my imagining of a manga-continuity "F" (much in the way I tend to make minimalist assumptions about major unstated strength gains), so I really only assume changes along the lines of removing the base-Goku vs. Freeza bit that doesn't work.

Assuming a weaker Freeza requires additional changes--mostly in that I can't really square a first-form Freeza who nearly kills Gohan with one punch giving way to a sub-God final form. If I were to pitch a manga-verse "F," my only change would be having Goku jump straight to Blue for the fight. Giving the base-Goku fight to Super Saiyan God Goku could work too, but I think it's better as a surprise return in the U6 arc.

I don't think there's anything in Freeza vs. Caulifla that requires him to be radically weaker than he is in the film version of "F." He compliments her and isn't looking at as easy a time as expected, but he comes away from her massive blast no worse for wear, and is hyper cognizant of playing the long game and saving effort and energy in the ToP. He has his Golden form under control, so it reads just as well as a quicker way of ending the fight, rather than wasting time and energy in final form if she'll go down anything less than dead-easy.

[Mr Baggins]

With regards to Freeza and his implications, we can't simply retcon RoF to have not been representative of anything, that's an entire major canonical story arc that's mostly the same in 2 mediums.

I don't personally see it as some major retcon; we can assume that the general story beats are the same. However, it's a fact that none of us can know how Toyotaro's version of RoF would have played out exactly in the strength department.

We know for completely-friggin'-certain that the Saiyans' scaling would have been different for the same reasons Hugo Boss stated: "Saiyan Beyond God" (or a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God) is nonexistent in the manga, but is 100% confirmed in the film/anime in everything from Goku's verbiage to supplementary materials to even the RoF tie-in manga, with SSGSS, at the time, being its Super Saiyan form. FF Freeza by proxy would have to be changed accordingly, and by the time the Tournament of Power rolls around, he is -- being roughly in Super Saiyan tier.

Goku's statement made afterwards is a testament to that.

Goku's statement specifically says he was preparing for opponents similar to Boo, not massively stronger than Boo. You might think I'm arguing semantics, but my point throughout these past few pages is that it's absolutely an exaggeration to argue that image training - especially Goku's balloon-popping one - is a "physical reenactment in real time". That's absurd.

You don't have to agree with me. This whole argument has become very cyclical.

[Skar]

It's also just not a serious sequence. The point of the chapter is that Goku doesn't get to train much now that Boo is defeated, which doesn't lend to any of the assumptions stated here. He preferred Kai's planet over this. He also outright said he's training just to face Boo level opponents. It doesn't get more obvious than that.

Something I remembered is that there doesn't seem to be much improvement during peace time (at least during their time on Earth) such as the five year timeskip between DB and DBZ and the year before the ToP. Other World training was the only time of peace that Goku made any noticeable gains. Vegeta trained in higher gravity only to master SSJ like Goku and maybe scratch the surface of SSJ2 since he was still weaker than Gohan.

It's possible Goku grew stronger but we're not given an idea how much or any direct statement. There's usually a reference to the previous strongest when they've been surpassed. If image training really did yield better results than his seven years in Other World, Goku probably wouldn't have been as excited to go to King Kai's planet when he no longer had to work. In the year before the ToP, he could've done image training since he had stronger opponents than Buu to imagine but the story only implied he was somewhat rusty due to lack of serious training.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Since the topic is evolving into Post RoF Base Goku's strength, is it possible? Look at this promotional pamphlet for RoF:

Spoiler:

So Goku can tap into God-like power (But probably not literal God Ki). This is explanation from someone from another forum who goes with this idea:

The "can gain control" part would imply it's not their base level.

In simple terms

When merging with the strength of the Super Saiyan God, Goku needs Super Saiyan to use Super Saiyan God's full power.

After training with Whis, their god-like base forms become stronger relative to Super Saiyan God, which allows their god-like Super Saiyan forms to surpass Super Saiyan God and become SSGSS.

After gaining complete control of divine Ki, they can use Super Saiyan God again and SSGSS on top of God results in SSGSS Complete.

Laid out in numbers

God Power Level 1

God Power: 1.2
Super Saiyan(God Power): 60

God Power Level 2

God Power: 6
Super Saiyan Blue: 300

God Power Level 3

Super Saiyan God: 60
Super Saiyan Blue Complete: 3,000

I mean, either way there's no getting around Base Goku being super strong and the foes he fights are either also absurdly strong or he's holding back against then (The latter specifically stated to be the case in the ToP), but this helps clarifies things a bit on how strong Goku's golden forms are.

Goku got power-ups that large on Namek because he was getting near-death power-ups and gravity training. There's a reason he's desperate to find new forms of training or transformations in every storyline after. Again, if he were (or anyone) were increasing by that manifold throughout normal training, we probably wouldn't have had the series come down on his base form being sub-Freeza in BoG. (I know I'm bringing up an element of the film while dismissing others based on its manga adaptation--although that line survives in intent--but I bring it up as one illustrative of the series'/Toriyama's overall worldview.)

I don't know what else to say about the image training. To make this argument convincingly, you would have to assert that Toyotaro's intent was to deliberately write out the God-absorption from BoG for future storylines, but have Goku be super-strong from the first chapter anyway, but also choose the most obtuse way possible to show it, in a chapter where the main point is Goku being frustrated with his lack of effective training. That doesn't pan out for me, especially when there's all the reason in the world just to want Super Saiyan Goku in a harmless action sequence in an action-light first chapter, but your mileage may vary.

For Cell: His head wouldn't pop like a balloon in real life. He'd have brains and muscles and stuff. Another knock against the real-world accuracy of Goku's image training.

He doesn't really look that desperate to find anything beyond SSJ3 between the end of the Boo Saga and the introduction of SSJG, and is actually portrayed to be very powerful as a mere SSJB after training with Merus. Training might not be as effective as it used to be, but there's a lot of room between getting thousands of times stronger in a year and not even doubling your power withint a year.

I wouldn't call Goku "super strong" from the first chapter. He's still weaker than Gotenks, Gohan, Super Boo, Vegetto... and Beerus literally finger clicks him. Even within the context of the Boo Saga Cell and Boo l were like 23TB Piccolo and Raditz compared to the top dogs.

An action sequence doesn't only have to mean meaningless action, specially since fighting is what drives the plot forward. Is Toppo beating Goku in the Exhibition Match just a bit of fun to start the saga, or is it setting up the scene for the next foe?

Really? The fact Goku isn't imagining guts flying all over the place means he's just indulging in some day dreaming? What's the point of even transforming then?

But as always, if the story tells me #17 got that strong doing nothing, I'll buy it, and wait for it to explicitly tell me another character got that strong by doing nothing before assuming it for anyone else. Again, it's too good about being clear when a large power-up has been obtained to assume they're there when no clear statements are given. Especially because it tends to come down on none being there when there aren't. (Battle of Gods, etc.)

I can actually see the point here, but I think actual feats are just as valid as statements, specially when it's a character that focuses his time on improving himself. Goku and Piccolo are always training, so it comes as no surprise they'd show up stronger than before sooner or later.

By the way, what do you make of Shisami suddenly becoming as strong as Piccolo in RoF? He's not really noted to have done any kind of training whatsoever.

Unless you assume a super-strong Goku from the image-training sequence, which I personally think is ludicrous, there's no way to square up base Goku's performance against a final form Freeza that knocks Gohan out in one punch in first form--as that portion of the movie hinges on an absorption of Super Saiyan God power in the movie version of Battle of Gods the manga seems to deliberately drop in anticipation of future storylines.

Resurrection "F" happened in broad strokes in the manga, which is what its bits of summary give us. But something or other must have been different from the strict events of the film for it to fit into the manga's altered continuity.

I think you're forgetting Goku and Vegeta had been training with Whis for a while, and we see in the Moro Saga that training with an Angel isn't really something to sneeze at. Might be easier to just say Freeza hasn't improved besides attaining Golden form, since during RoF (Or even after, since all he does is barely keep up with SSJ Caulifla in the ToP) he doesn't actually have any showings or statements.

[Koitsukai]

Playing Devil's advocate, if the image training in fact bares as much fruit as some believe. Then, Goku's SS would be much stronger than BACK THEN SS2 Gohan. And this is before even fighting Beerus.

If SS Goku cannot defeat Frost as easily, that puts Frost probably above Back Then Gohan level, Majin Vegeta level, at the least. And Piccolo shouldn't be that far from him, maybe Super Perfect Cell level. And that’s pre-BoG Goku, post BoG, Frost might be Kid Buu level, and Piccolo below that, maybe Fat Buu’s. Who in RoF was creepily weaker than that.
Going forward, Supressed SS2 Trunks, who was stronger than Back Then Gohan but still in that realm according to the translation, should've been a piece of cake for a SS2 Goku.
Yet that didn't happen, in fact Trunks was stronger than a SS2 that started the show probably stronger than Kid Buu, and by now should be closing in on Buuhan. And still gets a reference about a power level that was even surpassed by pre BoG Goku… for a guy that is pressuring him on a stronger form. Does that make any sense?

So, is not only my interpretation that the chapter was basically "Goku is bored as fuck, not allowed to train, forced to work the field, and pictures himself oneshotting everybody(which to me is only enough to keep him fit and not suffer power loss like Gohan), and finally something breaks him free from that life and goes back to his usual programing" that prevents me from taking at face value two image-training panels, but the events that followed also don't add up.


But yeah, this has been going on for ages and both sides have presented their points, we should just agree to disagree, some will believe every panel should be strenght-related and take them at face value, others won’t. Besides, in a few hours we'll get some new juicy discussion material about Bardock.

[ZombieVito]

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the anime. Base Vegeta was just stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Zamasu's battle with Kibito doesn't mean anything, it was just training/sparring. If Zamasu isn't absurdly stronger than Kibito then he would be weaker than Namek Freeza and that's simply ridiculous. Let me remind you that Kibito was weaker than base Gohan from the Boo arc.

Goku and Vegeta described Super Saiyan Blue in those instances as if their normal forms had the power of Super Saiyan God. It’s the same wordplay written in RoF, literally the same explanation. So, you read Gotenks vs. Copy Vegeta as if Copy Vegeta had SSG’s power. The issue is that plot point isn’t used in other instances, like in Champa, Zamasu, ToP and Broly story arcs.

I think I don’t understand in what you are basing your assessment about the shinjins’ strength, you may have to elaborate more on that. But it’s worth pointing out they don’t have brute strength in the traditional Dragon Ball sense, they are like jedis with Force abilities. So, while Base Gohan would have more arm strength than Kibito and possibly even Kaioshin, Gohan wouldn’t be able to defeat them without Super Saiyan, because they can use those magical abilities to hard-counter them. Zamasu is the only shinjin so far that envies that brute strength aspect and tried to add it to his body, but he can still beat Super Saiyan Goku despite not being physically stronger than him.

That would no longer be a requirement as Frieza explicitly does not scale up to any god tier character until he goes golden which is evident in his battle against Caulifa. Regardless, the anime did away the "Saiyan Beyond God" concept and scaled Golden Frieza up in proportion to Super Saiyan Blue despite the implications of it being Frieza's equivalent to Super Saiyan. Toriyama also made it clear that Whis' training amounted to Vegeta reaching god level through Whis' training alone in the anime. The manga also seemed to set up the events of Resurrection of F in Battle of Gods meaning that whatever changes that were made were conveyed in that exchange. Otherwise, the manga expects us to make a reference to what occurred in the movie. Because of the changes made in Battle of Gods, it can easily be inferred that Base Goku and Frieza were simply not god level when they battled without altering the events of Resurrection of F.

BoG and RoF films and adaptations followed the same plot points, but as you can see they are fundamentally different from how they play out in other DBS story arcs. Freeza’s battle power is just an example of it, but you also have Piccolo’s and even Goku’s himself. Piccolo being at the same time weaker than/as strong as Base Goku. Base Goku being as strong as/weaker than Final Form Freeza. And much more.

Any attempt of reconciling this events will undoubtedly result in headcanon territory, I tried it myself when those film story arcs were followed by Champa Arc, but it’s simply a case of internal inconsistency. We went through that once more with DBS Broly and will go through that again with the upcoming DBS Super Hero. You could attribute that to different schedule productions, resulting in different thought process when writing the fights.

Wait, I just remembered, doesn't Zamasu beat Shin like he was nothing? That further disproves Kibito being close to him.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you think Gas' unleashed form makes him?

Bardock took a hell of a beating and was still standing, so it shouldn't put Gas on Dodoria's or Kiwi's level. Gas was going for the W, not messing around.

After Bardock's power up, where do you guys place him? on his son's level during the saiyan arc?



Fun fact, Bardock fought Dodoria on the TV Special, and now is fighting somebody that at best would be as strong. Maybe there's some intended parallel?

[ZombieVito]

I guess Bardock could have or be close to his 10,000 battle power he had on his original incarnation after his boost. He dies shortly after this so it makes sense he is never promoted to a higher rank.

Gas transformation can't be a high boost judging from his fight's with Goku/Granolah/Vegeta. I would probably put it at no higher than a 1.5 times boost.

[Berserker1921]

How strong do you think Gas' unleashed form makes him?

Bardock took a hell of a beating and was still standing, so it shouldn't put Gas on Dodoria's or Kiwi's level. Gas was going for the W, not messing around.

After Bardock's power up, where do you guys place him? on his son's level during the saiyan arc?



Fun fact, Bardock fought Dodoria on the TV Special, and now is fighting somebody that at best would be as strong. Maybe there's some intended parallel?

I was just about to ask this same question. Lol!

Bardock was probably around 10-20k. So, I suppose Berserk Gas was prob about 15-18k. Both of them much weaker than frieza. However, much stronger than most saiyans at that time. Or frieza’s higher tier goons.

[Goku9001]

BoG and RoF films and adaptations followed the same plot points, but as you can see they are fundamentally different from how they play out in other DBS story arcs. Freeza’s battle power is just an example of it, but you also have Piccolo’s and even Goku’s himself. Piccolo being at the same time weaker than/as strong as Base Goku. Base Goku being as strong as/weaker than Final Form Freeza. And much more.

Any attempt of reconciling this events will undoubtedly result in headcanon territory, I tried it myself when those film story arcs were followed by Champa Arc, but it’s simply a case of internal inconsistency. We went through that once more with DBS Broly and will go through that again with the upcoming DBS Super Hero. You could attribute that to different schedule productions, resulting in different thought process when writing the fights.

The manga isn't supposed to replace the movie. It readapts certain key events as it sees fit and relies on the movie to fill in the rest of the details that the manga is missing. This is made clear when the movie is kept very brief, clearly omitting details that were crucial to the manga such as establishing a concrete power hierarchy such as Goku being the strongest and Super Saiyan God transcending fusion, Beerus' assimilation to the group, the party, the collection of the dragonballs, and the cause of Beerus' outrage. The manga never cared to establish any sense of coherency in how these events played out so trying to maintain 100% consistency for Resurrection of F is the least of their concerns. Toyotaro simply readapted whatever events he sees fit and references the movie for the rest.

The issue you proposed for Resurrection of F is drastically played out. Simply scaling Base Goku/Vegeta and Frieza below god level while simultaneously keeping them above the rest due to their prior power standing i.e Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in Battle of Gods in addition to Whis' training is enough to keep Base Goku and Base Vegeta above the rest. You raise a good argument with DBS Super Hero but it's abundantly clear that whatever inconsistencies come up, the manga will still remain canon to the movie. The only reason the manga is not referenced or even considered is because Toriyama can't expect his audience to be keeping up with the manga. It's unrealistic to place such expectations. But that's a topic for another time and not something I'm interested in getting into.

[Goku9001]

Goku's statement specifically says he was preparing for opponents similar to Boo, not massively stronger than Boo. You might think I'm arguing semantics, but my point throughout these past few pages is that it's absolutely an exaggeration to argue that image training - especially Goku's balloon-popping one - is a "physical reenactment in real time". That's absurd.

You don't have to agree with me. This whole argument has become very cyclical.

Goku's statement used to foreshadow preparation of a greater threat is no different than what Krillin asks of Goku during the Cell Saga.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”

The purpose behind Krillin's statement was never to establish Frieza as a benchmark of comparison to Cell. The purpose behind it is to establish Cell's role as the main antagonist and prepare Goku for the possibility of having to reexperience the same terror, pain, and struggle that he experienced while fighting Frieza. This is no different. Goku is having to prepare for the possibility of having to reexperience someone powerful coming along and nearly destroying the Earth. This is just foreshadowing. Not a point of comparison.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I see people are talking about Bardock and Gas's Battle Powers.

But how strong is Elec's Pistol?

[Mr Baggins]

Goku's statement used to foreshadow preparation of a greater threat is no different than what Krillin asks of Goku during the Cell Saga.

I beg to differ. Kuririn's line is so different, in fact, that I think it pretty much refutes the counterpoint you're trying to mount. Kururin directly alludes to a new villain even scarier than the last one; Goku says he's preparing for foes akin to Boo.

Now, you can argue that the next big bad will logically be stronger than Boo, but that's immaterial to the points being discussed here. You can't use Goku's dialogue as evidence that his training is keeping enemies more powerful than Boo in mind when he's literally just saying he has Boo in mind. Those are two completely different statements.

...why are we still arguing about this?

[Cipher]

Really? The fact Goku isn't imagining guts flying all over the place means he's just indulging in some day dreaming? What's the point of even transforming then?

That was just a bit of snark aimed at pointing out the overall fantastic nature of the image training sequence while people are arguing for its real-life (in the world of the fiction) implications.

The point of transforming is to hype himself up/get serious/practice while wielding a bit more of his power, and because it's the first chapter of a new series and there's no other spot to show of action or an iconic form.

By the way, what do you make of Shisami suddenly becoming as strong as Piccolo in RoF? He's not really noted to have done any kind of training whatsoever.

You kind of have me there, because I am left with no choice but to assume Shisami has trained up despite absolutely no dialogue on it. But in that case there's absolutely explicit context--he's going toe to toe one on one with Piccolo, who is clearly exerting genuine effort, having last been stated to be around Zarbon's level, and it's notably very, very awkward and weird compared to literally everything else in either series. Which is why we still come back to it as a head-scratcher. It's not the normal mode, and I think the fact that people were expecting at least some line gesturing toward how to take it sheds light on what is.

I see people are talking about Bardock and Gas's Battle Powers.

But how strong is Elec's Pistol?

Weaker than Sorbet's laser.

[Hugo Boss]

Wait, I just remembered, doesn't Zamasu beat Shin like he was nothing? That further disproves Kibito being close to him.

If you mean chapter #22, Zamasu intercepted Shin when he wasn’t looking. That counts as a surprise attack. Afterwards, though Shin is on the losing side, it’s implied he is fighting Zamasu for a while, until Goku and Vegeta arrive again.

The manga isn't supposed to replace the movie.

I’m not suggesting either way or the other. I’m just saying that, sometimes, powerscalling DBS characters in conjunction with BoG and RoF doesn’t work because of those aforementioned plot points. I don’t see any problem in proposing a solution like scaling down Base Goku and Base Vegeta to levels below SSG, because that’s how I generally interpret from Champa Arc and on. But for all intents and purposes their base level was SSG at minimal when they fought RoF Freeza and were far below that when they fought Frost and other universes’ warriors.