Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

Goku's statement used to foreshadow preparation of a greater threat is no different than what Krillin asks of Goku during the Cell Saga.

I beg to differ. Kuririn's line is so different, in fact, that I think it pretty much refutes the counterpoint you're trying to mount. Kururin directly alludes to a new villain even scarier than the last one; Goku says he's preparing for foes akin to Boo.

Now, you can argue that the next big bad will logically be stronger than Boo, but that's immaterial to the points being discussed here. You can't use Goku's dialogue as evidence that his training is keeping enemies more powerful than Boo in mind when he's literally just saying he has Boo in mind. Those are two completely different statements.

...why are we still arguing about this?

You missed the point. There were already villains that were already monstrous compared to Frieza hence Trunks' warnings made to Goku. Therefore, the statement was never made to illustrate a new benchmark or point in comparison. The point is to make a reference to the fear and struggle they experienced in the past, and Krillin was questioning if Goku was prepared for such a situation. Goku's statement to Goten serves the same purpose. It was never a power comparison to begin with. It's just a typical way of establishing a threat like Buu in the same way that Krillin was establishing a threat like Frieza.

[Goku9001]

In response to Zamasu vs. Kaioshin, was it ever established that Future Zamasu was stronger than Present Zamasu in the manga? The anime makes it abundantly clear that was the case but I don't recall the manga ever making any sort of distinction.

[Thani]

Goku's statement used to foreshadow preparation of a greater threat is no different than what Krillin asks of Goku during the Cell Saga.

I beg to differ. Kuririn's line is so different, in fact, that I think it pretty much refutes the counterpoint you're trying to mount. Kururin directly alludes to a new villain even scarier than the last one; Goku says he's preparing for foes akin to Boo.

Now, you can argue that the next big bad will logically be stronger than Boo, but that's immaterial to the points being discussed here. You can't use Goku's dialogue as evidence that his training is keeping enemies more powerful than Boo in mind when he's literally just saying he has Boo in mind. Those are two completely different statements.

...why are we still arguing about this?

You missed the point. There were already villains that were already monstrous compared to Frieza hence Trunks' warnings made to Goku. Therefore, the statement was never made to illustrate a new benchmark or point in comparison. The point is to make a reference to the fear and struggle they experienced in the past, and Krillin was questioning if Goku was prepared for such a situation. Goku's statement to Goten serves the same purpose. It was never a power comparison to begin with. It's just a typical way of establishing a threat like Buu in the same way that Krillin was establishing a threat like Frieza.

Except Goku's line is explicitly about Buu's strength. He didn't say "someone stronger than Buu", but "someone strong like Buu, again". As in, Majin Buu still is his benchmark for strong people.

[Mr Baggins]

There were already villains that were already monstrous compared to Frieza hence Trunks' warnings made to Goku.

You thoroughly misunderstood my post, but that's cool. I'll explain one more time and leave the rest up to you:

There being villains between Freeza and Cell does not make Kuririn's obvious power comparison ("This thing's even stronger than Freeza" - Viz) any less salient. He was terrified and totally traumatized by Freeza's power at multiple points in the narrative, then finds out that Cell is even scarier. Freeza of course is Kuririn's prime standard given his experiences in the story. He's a character, not a robot. Context is important.

As Thani stated above, Goku's statement is 200% clear-cut. Boo is very clearly his benchmark and no amount of mental jumproping is going to change that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong do you think Gas' unleashed form makes him?

Bardock took a hell of a beating and was still standing, so it shouldn't put Gas on Dodoria's or Kiwi's level. Gas was going for the W, not messing around.

After Bardock's power up, where do you guys place him? on his son's level during the saiyan arc?



Fun fact, Bardock fought Dodoria on the TV Special, and now is fighting somebody that at best would be as strong. Maybe there's some intended parallel?

I think it could be similar to the power up Zarbon gets, which is like 1.2-1.3x. If Bardock is a super powerful low class but not quite middle class then he's nearing the 4,000 range. Base Gas can be a neat 4k since Bardock was holding his own, even if barely. Apply the 1.2-1.3x powre up and Zarbon is.

I imagine Bardock did something like Broly's Ikari power up, but by my fairly conservative numbers even a 2x power up would suffice.

Bardock: 3,750
~ Powered up: 7,500

Gas: 4,000
~ Instincts a little bit released: 4,500
~ Instincts fully released: 5,000

I see people are talking about Bardock and Gas's Battle Powers.

But how strong is Elec's Pistol?

Strong enough that a cowboy stand-off between him and Sorbet would destroy the universe.

You kind of have me there, because I am left with no choice but to assume Shisami has trained up despite absolutely no dialogue on it. But in that case there's absolutely explicit context--he's going toe to toe one on one with Piccolo, who is clearly exerting genuine effort, having last been stated to be around Zarbon's level, and it's notably very, very awkward and weird compared to literally everything else in either series. Which is why we still come back to it as a head-scratcher. It's not the normal mode, and I think the fact that people were expecting at least some line gesturing toward how to take it sheds light on what is.

I've seen people suggest Piccolo had grown intensely worn out by the earlier fighting, and albeit it's also not suggested it's something of a more logical conclusion, even if the Z Fighters didn't really appear that tired after defeating Freeza's goons.

I’m not suggesting either way or the other. I’m just saying that, sometimes, powerscalling DBS characters in conjunction with BoG and RoF doesn’t work because of those aforementioned plot points. I don’t see any problem in proposing a solution like scaling down Base Goku and Base Vegeta to levels below SSG, because that’s how I generally interpret from Champa Arc and on. But for all intents and purposes their base level was SSG at minimal when they fought RoF Freeza and were far below that when they fought Frost and other universes’ warriors.

Anime-wise at least, I don't think I've ever seen an issue with the warriors from other universes being super powerful. Being godly is more of a formalty than a serious measure of power, so surpassing SSJG in power isn't a huge deal for Cabba or Magetta because they don't have God Ki anyway. And when Goku fights his own friends or in the ToP, I think it's clear he's holding back for the sake of the fight; that's said word for word in the tournament.

I think the only real issue would be Piccolo. Besides getting Gohan to train on and off with him after RoF, he never really changes his training routine. The scriptwriter of the Piccolo vs Frost episodes is the same from the episodes Goku fights Beerus as a SSJ1 though, so I guess he knew what he was doing.

Do you think the Trio De Danger being at Majin Boo's level but having trouble with Base Saiyans is yet another outlier, or is it a reliable showing of how strong the Saiyans are currently? I mean, it's not like they're still below Freeza after all this time, right?

In response to Zamasu vs. Kaioshin, was it ever established that Future Zamasu was stronger than Present Zamasu in the manga? The anime makes it abundantly clear that was the case but I don't recall the manga ever making any sort of distinction.

Nope. Other than Kaioshin and Gowasu nobody gets to meet both Zamasus and they don't say anything.

As Thani stated above, Goku's statement is 200% clear-cut. Boo is very clearly his benchmark and no amount of mental jumproping is going to change that.

Except Goku's line is explicitly about Buu's strength. He didn't say "someone stronger than Buu", but "someone strong like Buu, again". As in, Majin Buu still is his benchmark for strong people.

I mean, Boo is a strong guy. Goku wants to get ready to fight strong guys so he's always strengthening himself. That's pretty straightforward. You can't say Goku one shotting Cell doesn't mean he can one shot Cell and then bend backwards like this to say Goku isn't actually aiming to get stronger for once in his life.

[Goku9001]

There were already villains that were already monstrous compared to Frieza hence Trunks' warnings made to Goku.

You thoroughly misunderstood my post, but that's cool. I'll explain one more time and leave the rest up to you:

There being villains between Freeza and Cell does not make Kuririn's obvious power comparison ("This thing's even stronger than Freeza" - Viz) any less salient. He was terrified and totally traumatized by Freeza's power at multiple points in the narrative, then finds out that Cell is even scarier. Freeza of course is Kuririn's prime standard given his experiences in the story. He's a character, not a robot. Context is important.

As Thani stated above, Goku's statement is 200% clear-cut. Boo is very clearly his benchmark and no amount of mental jumproping is going to change that.

Right. The only reason you would understand it as a power statement is because this is what the series is all about. Cell would have to be much stronger than Frieza to serve as the main antagonist given that characters have progressed since then but it's not a literal power statement. It's Krillin drawing a comparison between Frieza and Cell by suggesting that Cell will put them in as much of a terrible situation as Frieza did. Cell needs to be stronger because the series requires it but it's not strictly a power statement, otherwise that statement could be made for the Androids and that's deliberately ignoring what the narrative is developing.

Goku's statement is clear-cut by establishing that he views Buu as a powerful opponent in the past, and if he were to prepare for threats that could place them in the same situation, he would need to continue training. That says nothing about whether or not Goku has progressed since then. Goku could be alluding to a threat as powerful as Buu but the statement doesn't necessarily have to be taken that way. Goku powering up to fight even stronger foes, as illustrated by him battling previous villains should make that clear given that this is what the series is all about.

[Goku9001]

Except Goku's line is explicitly about Buu's strength. He didn't say "someone stronger than Buu", but "someone strong like Buu, again". As in, Majin Buu still is his benchmark for strong people.

Which doesn't undermine my statement. As GreatSaiyaman123 mentioned, Goku always wants to fight strong foes. Buu is on the back of his mind because he was the strongest enemy he had ever encountered and he was the last enemy that put the Earth in grave danger. Goku trains, as we see him do, to prepare for that situation.

[Mr Baggins]

You can't say Goku one shotting Cell doesn't mean he can one shot Cell and then bend backwards like this to say Goku isn't actually aiming to get stronger for once in his life.

Goku never one-shotted Cell (real Cell that is, not imaginary balloon Cell), but even if he did, I have made exactly neither of those assertions. Goku is aiming to get stronger and is pursuing Boo as a benchmark, which is the only thing I - and the manga's BoG arc itself - have ever contended.

Exactly how much stronger he's gotten is up to you to opine on, although I don't like to jump to conclusions about super drastic boosts that the series doesn't clarify. Maybe that's your cup of tea, but I'll pass.

[Hugo Boss]

Anime-wise at least, I don't think I've ever seen an issue with the warriors from other universes being super powerful. Being godly is more of a formalty than a serious measure of power, so surpassing SSJG in power isn't a huge deal for Cabba or Magetta because they don't have God Ki anyway. And when Goku fights his own friends or in the ToP, I think it's clear he's holding back for the sake of the fight; that's said word for word in the tournament.

I think the only real issue would be Piccolo. Besides getting Gohan to train on and off with him after RoF, he never really changes his training routine. The scriptwriter of the Piccolo vs Frost episodes is the same from the episodes Goku fights Beerus as a SSJ1 though, so I guess he knew what he was doing.

Do you think the Trio De Danger being at Majin Boo's level but having trouble with Base Saiyans is yet another outlier, or is it a reliable showing of how strong the Saiyans are currently? I mean, it's not like they're still below Freeza after all this time, right?

If we were to apply the same plot beat from RoF, if Cabba also had power comparable to SSG in his regular form, when he became a SS he would be blue, not golden. Besides, Vegeta showed how far SSGSS was above Cabba’s SS, so I really doubt his SS or Base were implied to be a match for SSG as well.

I think you can still find Cabba’s remarkable by just being able to pull SS off that easily, but to think he is such a prodigy that he can sport SSG level of power without ever experiencing the form, that honestly would undermine Goku and Vegeta’s efforts to master it.

I don’t think having the same scriptwriter writing those fights is a guarantee that you can easily reconcile blatant contradictions, because we have Toriyama writing outlines like Goku absorbing the power of SSG, which would make that transformation useless, and at the same time he writes another outline with Goku using SSG again. For this reason, I think Piccolo would have to undergo a huge overhaul to hold off someone presumably stronger than SSG, when he wasn’t even a match for a SS.

I think extracting anything worthwhile from the wolf trio’ fights might prove to be a difficult task, because they don’t rely on their own power. And even when Basil used his cheat, Boo still defeated him. Goku also defeated Bergamo when he used his cheat, but he had to transform to accomplish it. So, there is no telling what would happen if they were using only their true power. The only thing I could extract is that they were fighting the wolfs equally in their base forms before the cheats started being used, so I would say that could work as an indication that Boo was stronger than Base Saiyans at least.

[SupremeKai25]

The manga showed Beerus seemingly having defeated Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan.

It's surely safe to assume the angry Super Saiyan Vegeta that went up against Beerus surpassed them as well.

Kinda the only assumption to make honestly. Trying to twists it so that Vegeta is weaker than the people Beerus previously no sold is kinda an extremely hard task.

This is true and I never thought about it actually, but I guess it runs with the overarching theme of Saiyans reaching new levels of power through sheer rage ("My Bulma" scene). And since Vegeta, unlike Gohan and Gotenks, is a pure-blooded Saiyan, his rage might surpass theirs, which explains why he remains relevant as deuteragonist while Gohan and Gotenks have fallen off the powerscale and are no longer relevant.

[Koitsukai]

I think it could be similar to the power up Zarbon gets, which is like 1.2-1.3x. If Bardock is a super powerful low class but not quite middle class then he's nearing the 4,000 range. Base Gas can be a neat 4k since Bardock was holding his own, even if barely. Apply the 1.2-1.3x powre up and Zarbon is.

I imagine Bardock did something like Broly's Ikari power up, but by my fairly conservative numbers even a 2x power up would suffice.

Bardock: 3,750
~ Powered up: 7,500

Gas: 4,000
~ Instincts a little bit released: 4,500
~ Instincts fully released: 5,000

Yeah, that could work.

I would make Gas even stronger, so that his confidence in his FP power's superiority has more support. At 6,500 when he is completely unleashed.

Too bad we'll never know where he stood before the wish, 40 years later. Granny we can scale with him saying he is above the Freeza that died (over 500k or 120M), but Gas is a mystery.

[Nistarkail]

I think it could be similar to the power up Zarbon gets, which is like 1.2-1.3x. If Bardock is a super powerful low class but not quite middle class then he's nearing the 4,000 range. Base Gas can be a neat 4k since Bardock was holding his own, even if barely. Apply the 1.2-1.3x powre up and Zarbon is.

I imagine Bardock did something like Broly's Ikari power up, but by my fairly conservative numbers even a 2x power up would suffice.

Bardock: 3,750
~ Powered up: 7,500

Gas: 4,000
~ Instincts a little bit released: 4,500
~ Instincts fully released: 5,000

More less, I think the same. Bardock was about to reach Nappa who has a base power of 4.000 but a bit stronger than Piccolo at that time (officially 3.500). So he could have 3.700 before power-up, indeed. When he unleashed his last attacks, surely he reached 7.000-
7500 (a bit less than Goku after trained with Old Kai)

And about Gas, for me he had 3.900 when normal, 4.400 when slightly released and 6.500 when he was at maximum (a bit weaker than full power Nappa).

The real doubt now is about Elec, who has a shameful aim but for me he did not want to show his powers

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Is Ultra Insinct a fixed boost/multiplier? Or was Goku getting different power ups every time he used it?

[Hugo Boss]

Is Ultra Insinct a fixed boost/multiplier? Or was Goku getting different power ups every time he used it?

I’d say it depends on how cleared Goku’s mind is and for how long he can maintain such a state of mind. It’s implied Goku can gradually increase ultra instinct’s effectiveness the more he sharpens his senses and the more trained his body is.

[Thani]

Is Ultra Insinct a fixed boost/multiplier? Or was Goku getting different power ups every time he used it?

I’d say it depends on how cleared Goku’s mind is and for how long he can maintain such a state of mind. It’s implied Goku can gradually increase ultra instinct’s effectiveness the more he sharpens his senses and the more trained his body is.

It was also getting constantly better in the anime with each usage, before Goku completed it. So yeah, it really depends on Goku's state of mind.

[ZombieVito]

Is Ultra Insinct a fixed boost/multiplier? Or was Goku getting different power ups every time he used it?

Different multiplier each usage of Omen. I don't believe Goku grew stronger in the ToP in his base.

[Koitsukai]

There's at least a minimum boost, seen in the special, probably around 50x on top of SSB, considering it was doing much better than KKX20 against the same fella.

But after that, I think it's like tuning up an instrument, depending on the state of mind of the user, not on their power.

[Goku9001]

Hard to say. The boost in the anime seemed monstrous and I would agree that by virtue of being above KKx20 and Goku's Genkidama, that a 50x multiplier at the very least seems appropriate all things considered. I always attributed UI Omen Goku's growth in power as a result of Goku's own power increasing during his battle with Caulifa. However, he did maintain UI Omen longer against Kefla than he did against Jiren so it's possible that the transformation itself powered up due to his greater control over it.

[Skar]

Is Ultra Insinct a fixed boost/multiplier? Or was Goku getting different power ups every time he used it?

I'm not sure but it could be a sign that the writers don't really work on the story with set numbers in mind. I remember SSJ3 was described as unlocking potential so whoever wrote that probably didn't think of it as just base x some number because that was only implied in the SEG. UI might just be thought of as a big powerup and more efficient with training and mastery.

[Koitsukai]

By the 3rd Sign, I'd say Goku became more than 50x stronger than in SSB. One could say it's 25x stronger with each usage, but that might be a lot, so, 50>> 60>>> 75 could work as well.
UI should be twice whatever Sign provides, being the missing offensive portion of the technique and all.

I don't think that would apply for the manga, where we don't even know how much stronger than SSB, Sign is. If Goku's Blue Kaioken only doubled SSB, and SSBE is above even that (3x SSB?), then Sign could be 5 or 10x SSB. I'm inclined to say 10x rather than 5x, seeing how Jiren effortlessly took out SSBE Vegeta, yet needed to fully power up to face Goku.
The good thing is UI doesn't have to be twice Sign like in the anime, because it's a whole new other level, as shown against Moro. Sign couldn't even touch Moro73 and UI was breaking his wrist with his chest while tweeting. I have no idea how much of a boost it is -the completed technique- on top of Sign.
Don't know how much stronger than SSB UI currently is, either.