Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Is the old lady allowed to get decked for doing so?

No. The woman is suppose to be invincible to all male offense.

So, you're being sexist here. Gotcha.

Yeah. I'm incredibly sexist to men. Some might say the most sexist someone has ever been.

[kemuri07]

Women are not represented equally to men in Dragon Ball. Not in the slightest. Not until we see some old lady peeking and nose bleeding Vegeta using the bathroom unawares.

And? It's a series by a male written largely for males. Surprise surprise the vast majority of the characters are males. The most popular characters...are males.

Bulma was only ever a genius scientist, which she continues to be.

Chi-Chi outside of one fight has served other purpose than to give Goku a family.

Android 18 the most prominent female fighter still has fights. She fought in the Tournament of Power and the Moro arc and apparently in Super Hero also. Her relevance is no less particularly than other secondary Z Fighter Earthlings. She's no Gohan or Piccolo, she's only ever going to get so much to do.

Videl was only ever introduced to be a girlfriend to Gohan. She had no relevance fight wise except to establish the difference from normal humans and the main characters.

So what are they meant to do?

You can't just say they should introduce a new long standing female Z fighter character because they haven't introduced any males one in all of Super either.

That's not really an excuse though. Unless boys are so insecure that any female presence would break their fragile ego.

Again, this is where I'm willing to be like "yeah, he could have done better, but I get the context of when DB was made." But now? I don't think that's an excuse, and I think there are plenty of shounen right now that are able to provide well developed female characters that are targeted towards a male audience.

[super michael]

Women are not represented equally to men in Dragon Ball. Not in the slightest. Not until we see some old lady peeking and nose bleeding Vegeta using the bathroom unawares.

And? It's a series by a male written largely for males. Surprise surprise the vast majority of the characters are males. The most popular characters...are males.

Bulma was only ever a genius scientist, which she continues to be.

Chi-Chi outside of one fight has served other purpose than to give Goku a family.

Android 18 the most prominent female fighter still has fights. She fought in the Tournament of Power and the Moro arc and apparently in Super Hero also. Her relevance is no less particularly than other secondary Z Fighter Earthlings. She's no Gohan or Piccolo, she's only ever going to get so much to do.

Videl was only ever introduced to be a girlfriend to Gohan. She had no relevance fight wise except to establish the difference from normal humans and the main characters.

So what are they meant to do?

You can't just say they should introduce a new long standing female Z fighter character because they haven't introduced any males one in all of Super either.

That's not really an excuse though. Unless boys are so insecure that any female presence would break their fragile ego.

Again, this is where I'm willing to be like "yeah, he could have done better, but I get the context of when DB was made." But now? I don't think that's an excuse, and I think there are plenty of shounen right now that are able to provide well developed female characters that are targeted towards a male audience.

I knew boys in school that watched PPG, so I am sure they don't have any problem in girls being powerful and useful.

People don't care if the character is female or male, they only care if the character is written good or not.

[dva_raza]

A character development doesn’t have to be extended. For a character with a short arc it can be a one time change after a certain event.
Videl had her arc, it was a short one and she got her development. And she doesn’t need her story to progress further to validate that development.

The only development she had revolved entirely around Gohan. Realizing Gohan was the one that beat Cell and not her father, initially being distrusting of Gohan then becoming friends with him then developing feeling for him. She never really had her own story.

That is correct, she never had her own story nor was she ever suggested to have one.

Literally my whole point.

We clearly don't see the character the same way. As far as I can tell you seem to be referring to her initial distrust of Gohan as that's the only behavior that could be interpreted as a "bad attitude" and "mean".

She's confident (over-confident at her worst), assertive, and competitive. "Arrogant", "full of herself", and "entitled" sound like negative spins on those traits.

If you use “distrusting” synonymously with rude as shit then yeah that’s what I’m referring to, I thought the talk was about her character as a whole not exclusively her battle scene.

And no lol, she was perpetually angry and hostile, she stalked Gohan, threatened to expose him, demanded he teaches her to fly, kept yelling at him while he did, was rude to Chi Chi, tried to prevent him from saving a dinosaur. Confidece and competitiveness has nothing to do with that.

Lol, nice strawman. Respond to someone that actually made that argument. The beating was an excuse to sideline her, that was my argument.

I didn’t mean to strawman. I used that point to explain the character development that I see.

You said she didn’t have one and I’m telling you her development was dropping the attitude.
Which is being confused by some with her being "placated" because of her battle, but no.

Comparing Videl to Vegeta here is a false equivalency. Vegeta is one of the main characters, and as such, gets plenty of opportunities to show off how badass he is as a fighter. Videl is a side character (and new character at the time) that was never going to have as much relevance so that being her final showing as a fighter makes it a particularly bad look given she's a female character and Dragon Ball's reputation for how it treats its female characters. Again, it comes off as an excuse to sideline her.

It’s not a false equivalency, the comparison is irrelevant. I gave an example of people blaming the writer about things they expect for literally no reason, which is what your doing. Also you're contradicting yourself.

You’re saying "she was never going to have as much relevance” and that it was her "final fight"...then what is with this weird “excuse to sideline her” phrase you keep repeating?

If you understand that’s where her arc was ending then you also should know there was no “excuse” required. I don't understand why you keep saying that word. She was ending her arc one way or another because there was nothing else. She was introduced as a complement in Gohan’s brief story as a young adult and that’s what she did.
I mean, Gohan didn’t even have an excuse to be sidelined lol, he had the powelever to fit in the story and yet hasn’t been part of it for a long while. So I don’t understand what would you expect for her, a side story that would follow her training and fighting randos on earth in parallel to the Super events with Goku and the Gods?

And the beating thing, what, would you rather she gave up or just fought someone else?
What happened was needed to make the most significant moment of connection she had with Gohan. That wouldnt've happened if she had won against some random fighter while Gohan flies away with the rest to take care of the Buu situation.

[super michael]

Videl preventing Gohan from rescuing the dinosaur was filler, it wasn't in the manga.

[dva_raza]

Videl preventing Gohan from rescuing the dinosaur was filler, it wasn't in the manga.

Lol I don't give a fuck. I don't understand this rejection for "fillers". Fillers where written and done. They were the interpretation of the people working on the anime, is that supposed to be completely irrelevant?

[super michael]

Videl preventing Gohan from rescuing the dinosaur was filler, it wasn't in the manga.

Lol I don't give a fuck. I don't understand this rejection for "fillers". Fillers where written and done. They were the interpretation of the people working on the anime, is that supposed to be completely irrelevant?

Filler was made to give the manga time, so the anime doesn't catch up and surpass the manga.

Filler contradict itself the the anime version and the manga.

[Xeno Goku Black]

That's not really an excuse though.

It doesn't need to be. That's just how it is. Male oriented shows have an emphasis on male characters because they are generally more popular.

It would be the same in reverse. Pretty much all the strongest and most relevant characters in Sailor Moon are female just the same.

If anything it's been better for females lately. Vados, Kale, Caulifla, Ribrianne, Chronoa, Android 21, Towa, Putine, Robelu and Aeos are new female characters that aren't all too useless.

[MasenkoHA]

If anything it's been better for females lately. Vados, Kale, Caulifla, Ribrianne, Chronoa, Android 21, Towa, Putine, Robelu and Aeos are new female characters that aren't all too useless.

I will say I agree that if nothing else Super and other modern material has done better on that front.


But I also don't think the series necessarily needs MORE female characters just that it should do better with the ones it had. And generally the writing for Bulma improved when she was no longer a "hehe girls have boobies and a vagina!" joke and 18 has never been horribly written or anything.

[dva_raza]

Videl preventing Gohan from rescuing the dinosaur was filler, it wasn't in the manga.

Lol I don't give a fuck. I don't understand this rejection for "fillers". Fillers where written and done. They were the interpretation of the people working on the anime, is that supposed to be completely irrelevant?

Filler was made to give the manga time, so the anime doesn't catch up and surpass the manga.

Filler contradict itself the the anime version and the manga.

I understand the purpose of a filler. I'm saying I don't care. I don't see what's so different about accepting the interpretation of people who were trusted with taking some artistic liberties when needed, and when fans ignore things Toriyama did because “it should not be”.

Either way, what exactly does the dinosaur scene "contradict" from the manga?

[Majin Buu]

That is correct, she never had her own story nor was she ever suggested to have one.

Literally my whole point.

And my original point was that what was being described about her character arc was inaccurate and was more describing development in a continuing story that never happened. If you don't agree, cool- Agree to disagree then.

If you use “distrusting” synonymously with rude as shit then yeah that’s what I’m referring to, I thought the talk was about her character as a whole not exclusively her battle scene.

And no lol, she was perpetually angry and hostile, she stalked Gohan, threatened to expose him, demanded he teaches her to fly, kept yelling at him while he did, was rude to Chi Chi, tried to prevent him from saving a dinosaur. Confidece and competitiveness has nothing to do with that.

Again, agree to disagree then. We just don't see the character the same way.

I didn’t mean to strawman. I used that point to explain the character development that I see.

You said she didn’t have one and I’m telling you her development was dropping the attitude.
Which is being confused by some with her being "placated" because of her battle, but no.

It wasn't being confused by me though, because I never made that argument, so there was no need to bring that up in your response to me. Doing so made you look like you were engaging in a strawman. Stick to the arguments the person you're responding to actually made.

It’s not a false equivalency, the comparison is irrelevant. I gave an example of people blaming the writer about things they expect for literally no reason, which is what your doing. Also you're contradicting yourself.You’re saying "she was never going to have as much relevance” and that it was her "final fight"...then what is with this weird “excuse to sideline her” phrase you keep repeating?

I've explained it twice now, I'd just be repeating myself if I explained it to you again so I'm not going to.

And the beating thing, what, would you rather she gave up or just fought someone else?

Maybe, yeah. Anything to avert her last showing as a fighter being a vicious beating.

What happened was needed to make the most significant moment of connection she had with Gohan. That wouldnt've happened if she had won against some random fighter while Gohan flies away with the rest to take care of the Buu situation.

Or *gasp* she could have tagged along with him like she had already been doing in the story thus far. If her significantly weaker and less skilled father can be a bystander (and occasional participant) in the action with no issue then there's no reason she couldn't be. Hell, they more or less did that with her in Movie 10.

[jjgp1112]

Eh, Mr Satan was a way more interesting and most importantly funnier non human tagalong than Videl. Videls whole character is an artifact of the High School Adventures that Toriyama abandoned in 5 chapters. I struggle to figure out what she could contribute.

[WittyUsername]

I feel like people wouldn’t be talking as much about what a waste of potential Videl’s character was if it weren’t for the anime. Her only real significance in the manga is getting Gohan to compete in the tournament. Her romance with Gohan barely gets any focus there, which is no surprise, as Toriyama has admitted to not being good at writing romance.

[dva_raza]

And my original point was that what was being described about her character arc was inaccurate and was more describing development in a continuing story that never happened. If you don't agree, cool- Agree to disagree then.

It's not about disagreeing, I’m correcting the lie you are saying.

Your claim that someone’s arc has to be extended for them to have a character development is not true.

The development is just progressive change and depth, and characters with brief arcs can of course have that, it’s not exclusive for characters with longer arcs.

I didn’t mean to strawman. I used that point to explain the character development that I see.

You said she didn’t have one and I’m telling you her development was dropping the attitude.
Which is being confused by some with her being "placated" because of her battle, but no.

It wasn't being confused by me though, because I never made that argument, so there was no need to bring that up in your response to me. Doing so made you look like you were engaging in a strawman. Stick to the arguments the person you're responding to actually made.

Well what you said was – “she was not arrogant, she was just confident” . That’s what I responded to.

I explained that she was in fact arrogant, not “just confident” , which is a key distinction because that’s what her development (that you dismiss) was. A change in attitude.

My comment about her ‘not being beaten out a of a personality’ as someone else had said was simply something I referenced to explain how I view her change overall! I didn’t think I was implying that that was your argument.

Also you're contradicting yourself.You’re saying "she was never going to have as much relevance” and that it was her "final fight"...then what is with this weird “excuse to sideline her” phrase you keep repeating?

I've explained it twice now, I'd just be repeating myself if I explained it to you again so I'm not going to.

I don’t know what you think you explained twice..this was the first time you made that contradiction and the first time I responded to it.

And you don't need to explain anything, thought it was obvious the question was rhetorical since it was followed by an answer (which you conveniently left out from the quote). Either way let me rephrase:

You said -"She was never going to have as much relevance. That was her final fight”. .That means you knew her arc was supposed to end there.
So your claim that her losing the fight was done as an “excuse" to sideline her is nonsensical.
It wasn't a forced premature ending to her arc, so I don't see why they'd need any "excuse" to end it after the character served its purpose.

Maybe, yeah. Anything to avert her last showing as a fighter being a vicious beating.

Using a side character according to “what is a convenient look for that character” is not how writing is approached usually.

Or *gasp* she could have tagged along with him like she had already been doing in the story thus far.

Lol.. very climactic.

[Majin Buu]

Eh, Mr Satan was a way more interesting and most importantly funnier non human tagalong than Videl.

I don't disagree, but you wouldn't have to replace him for her to come along. Why not have them both there to play off of each other? Just off the top of my head, you could use those moments to flesh out their relationship as father and daughter since we didn't get to see them interact all that often; and given the Buu arc's nature as being more comedic, you could do it in a funny way as I'm sure there's untapped potential with those two as a comedic paring. Make her the straight (wo)man to her goofy father and give her some "not so above it all" goofy moments to show the apple didn't fall far from the tree after all. Something like the Piccolo/Gotenks dynamic, but with a father/daughter twist.

I've focused on her role as a fighter because she's good at that and can fly, but I think you can do other things with her that aren't fighting.

Videls whole character is an artifact of the High School Adventures that Toriyama abandoned in 5 chapters. I struggle to figure out what she could contribute.

See my suggestion above. I just don't buy that it was flat out impossible to keep her in the story. It's all a matter of wanting to or not at the end of the day. If Toriyama had wanted to keep her in the story, he could have pulled a reason out of his ass to do so like he's done all throughout the series. He simply didn't want to.

Snip

Sure.

[DestructoDisc]

Chi-Chi was fine at the beginning, but Toei fillers made her look so bad in the Saiyan/Namek saga, it's no surprise so many people hate her. It's like none of the characters, including Goku and Gohan, even wanted to be around her because she was so annoying. It was just sad. Thankfully she got better in the Cell and Buu arc, but that didn't make people forget about her writing from the other 2 sagas. You know it's really sad when you go on youtube to see her death from the Buu saga, and everyone in the comments is like "fuck her, she deserved it". Then in Super she just went back to being an overprotective tiger mom again, but she gets far less screentime this time.

Bulma's also a character that was heavily damaged by how she was written in the Saiyan/Namek arc. Despite those being my favorite sagas, it's hard to deny that the way they wrote the ONLY 2 prominent female characters in those sagas was just infuriating. They were made to look like nothing but annoying bitches. Bulma at least builds the spaceship and travels to Namek with it, but her contributions end there, she literally does nothing in Namek, despite that being a perfect opportunity for her to meet Vegeta in person and develop their relationship (if Toriyama even planned to get them together at the time, I'm not sure), and the annoying Toei fillers didn't help her one bit. She's a lot more well liked now, but tbh, that's mostly because she married Vegeta and is the mother of Trunks, 2 of the most beloved characters of the series.

18's my favorite of the 4 girls. I'm fine with they way she was written in every arc and movie, I just wish they did more with her. The androids were such fun and interesting characters, and it was really sad how 17 got all the cool techniques and power-ups, while 18 didn't get anywhere near as much love. Even Toei fillers were kind with her for the most part. Also what's with Toriyama making her look worse and worse as the series goes on? She was a hottie in the Cell arc, then she looked a little worse in Buu and BoG but still ok, then she got that ridiculous tracksuit in the ToP, and now she has this short hair which just doesn't suit her imo.

Videl is just sad. She was never really annoying, she just turned into such a boring and bland character after Spopovich beat the tar out of her, it was so lame. She literally doesn't do anything anymore besides cook dinner and take care of Pan. At least we know she's a martial arts teacher now which is cool but I want more from her. Does she even hang out with any of her friends from the Buu saga anymore? At least Bulma and Chi-Chi were interestingly bad in the early Z arcs, Videl is just boring.

[Saiya6Cit]

We can't judge by today's standards what was allowed back in the 80s and 90s. We must not deny that Dragon Ball is sexist. But it is not all that it is.

If we were talking about the newest movie, it would be relevant... speaking of which ....

SPOILER:

Spoiler:

A18 is the empowered female who puts krillin down, she goes fight Resurected Cell whilst leaving Krillin to take care of Pan and Bulma.

but for old DB, DBZ and DBGT let's leave it like it is, in my country we say "dejar las cosas por la paz" (leave things in peace/pro peace).

Dragon ball super and ongoing movies is what we should focus on, we don't want what happned to the movie Buzzlightyear to happen to our beloved DB. We have to be an united fandom not to try to get hurt among each other.

[Cursed Lemon]

we don't want what happned to the movie Buzzlightyear to happen to our beloved DB

[MasenkoHA]

).

Dragon ball super and ongoing movies is what we should focus on, we don't want what happned to the movie Buzzlightyear to happen to our beloved DB.

Which is?

[Saiya6Cit]

).

Dragon ball super and ongoing movies is what we should focus on, we don't want what happned to the movie Buzzlightyear to happen to our beloved DB.

Which is?

they thought it was a good idea to include a homosexual couple kiss in the movie cause it is 2022 and that is the life style of many but the story of buzz or even toystory itself never really revolved around that. If they make a dragon ball to appeal the 2022 masses and their social constructs, it wil not be true to original dragon ball.

I don't want dragon ball to be appealing to today's standards, I would like for it to be preserved as a cult anime. I have always been upset with censorship, dragon ball had blood and boobs and lifted skirts and it was fine for that time. If they want an inclusive and up to date anime without sexism and etc, just go ahead and create a new anime instead of trying to adapt DB to these days.