HeroR wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:57 am
Sora Saiyan wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:39 am
It'd be SSJBE since that caused Jiren to bleed once he hit him. Showing that he was no longer an indomitable tank. Not like I care since there's now clearly 3 different continuities anyway. Toiryamas where Merged Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto, and weaker than two SSJBs, and Jiren isn't much above regular SSJB (both Goku and Vegeta). The manga where MSSJB is as strong as Merged Zamasu, and Zamasu is fodder to Vegetto. Jiren isn't much stronger than SSJBE (but this doesn't really work for Vegetas statement from Super Hero since he states that both him and Goku weren't far off Jiren, not that only one was close to him). Then there's the anime, where Merged Zamasu has a corrupted form which is as strong as Bluegetto, and Jiren is an absolute monster who fodderises KKx20 Blue Goku, and can deflect the genki dama by flexing at KKX20 Blueku. (Pure Buu was overpowered by regular old SSJ pushing it at him, and Freeza was overpowered by massively fatigued base Goku doing the same.. this feat is monstrous). Ultra instinct in the anime is fucking godly too, Jiren at full power is a speck to it, it takes a limit breaking form to close the gap.
Also in reply to you mentioning Vegeta hitting above his weight class against Granolah, its true he can and did against him. Vegeta is a trained warrior after all, but even a well trained Vegeta pales in comparison to how highly refined Jiren is. Vegeta is basically Granolah in this situation and Jiren is Vegeta in that example, he's just that more more highly tuned that Vegeta.
The extended Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms don't exists in Toriyama's script. So you can't say it's SSBE.
In Toriyama's original script Vegito didn't exists at all. He was added by Toyo's suggesting. And saying Jiren isn't much above regular Blue doesn't match either because then why did Goku need UI. And manga Jiren tanked SSBE Vegeta's punches and punched Goku out of UI.
That isn't my point. My point is that Vegeta treats Jiren having no wasteful movement made him punch above his class, which isn't new when he did it himself. So why did it take years for him to figure that out.
Hence my point on three different continuities now, and Vegetto was put in due to Toyos reccomendation, but even so Toriyama accepted it and now it's something that happens in all versions.
The main point here is Vegeta mentions both him and Goku being not too far off Jiren. UI can't apply since that means only Goku was close to Jiren. It has to be forms that are close in power or shared.
In the manga continuity SSJBE is the only proper form that makes an impact since it draws blood from Jiren, Jiren with his superbly honed fighting instincts defeats Vegeta easily, but because Vegeta can hurt Jiren we can apply this form to the statement. The only form of Gokus that comes close to SSJBE is that KK like power up, so we may have to include that, or SSJBE isn't a drastic power up from MSSJB. Either way it's a bit of a mess to make fit.
In the anime Blue evo and SSJBkk are miles off Jiren, and that's even before we have his limit breaking form to try and make sense of. In the anime any form outside of UI can't make a dent in regular Jiren, forget about the total monster that is LB Jiren. UI is exclusive to Goku so that can't be included in Vegetas statement from Super Hero about both him and Goku in relation to Jiren.
In Toriyamas continuity SSJB Goku and Vegeta arent too far off from Jiren in power level. We don't actually see the fight, but we know those are likely the only forms they share, or are close in power to eachother for the statement to fit.
Vegeta getting the better of Granolah isn't to do with him making no wasted movements, and having a calm mind. Its due to him fighting a total newbie who doesn't even know how to use all his new powers. Vegeta will make less wasted movements than Granolah by proxy, but he isn't anything close to Jiren in this regard. Vegeta's a seasoned warrior, but Jiren is going above and beyond that.
To make these continuities fit is a mess. This always happens though. Fans will always force their wonky jigsaw puzzles to fit. We all have varying degrees of success with this but no matter the case they aren't meant to fit seamlessly.