Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

SSG isn't weaker than Buuhan and it's not barely stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Come on, now.

Why isn't it weaker than Buuhan? It's weaker than Android 17. It's weaker than Ultimate Gohan who re-acquired his power after training for one day. Why can't it be weaker than Buuhan?

Because that's how fusion works? the base form is as strong as the fusee's strongest form.

Since when? The Z anime showed Base Vegito to be well above Ultimate Gohan nevermind Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

The manga showed Base Vegito perform far better than Super Saiyan Blue at that point. Super Saiyan Kefla just had the same strength as Super Saiyan Kale it was no better at all, just focused. Merged Zamasu wasn't leagues upon leagues more powerful than Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black, it was only the difference between Super Saiyan Blue at 100% and Super Saiyan Blue losing power.

Then in the anime base Kefla was far above Super Saiyan God which was not true for Kale or Caulifla separately.

In Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Super Saiyan Blue Vegito even with Kaioken was weaker than Ultra Instinct Goku.

Is Base Gogeta in the Broly movie supposed to be Ultra Instinct level?

[Xeno Goku Black]

Goku was Vegito and thought he stood a chance against Beerus as a Super Saiyan God, but not using Fusion. Also in both the movie and retelling, Goku called Super Saiyan God a power like he never felt before and again, he was Vegito.

Yeah but that's old news now. This was the same movie that had Beerus use 70% of his power against Goku or 10% of his power against Vegeta.

Both those things clearly changed.

Considering the likes of Android 17, Trunks and Gohan far surpassed Super Saiyan God doing a fraction of the training that Goku did it seems pretty clear that Super Saiyan God was probably massively nerfed after the movies.

[HeroR]

Goku was Vegito and thought he stood a chance against Beerus as a Super Saiyan God, but not using Fusion. Also in both the movie and retelling, Goku called Super Saiyan God a power like he never felt before and again, he was Vegito.

Yeah but that's old news now. This was the same movie that had Beerus use 70% of his power against Goku or 10% of his power against Vegeta.

Both those things clearly changed.

Considering the likes of Android 17, Trunks and Gohan far surpassed Super Saiyan God doing a fraction of the training that Goku did it seems pretty clear that Super Saiyan God was probably massively nerfed after the movies.

Beerus only said he used 10%, doesn’t mean he needed it just like 50% Frieza vs Goku on Namek.

That only tells us those characters are strong, not that freaking Gohan Buu is stronger than Super Saiyan God. That and we don’t even know what training 17 did, Trunks was fighting for his life for over a year, and Gohan is the king of BS powerups.

The retelling was written years after Battle of Gods and the only thing they changed was the 70% line. And the anime double down on this by having bass Vegeta tank Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and this was after the Champa Saga and the Future Trunks Saga was about the air.

[Koitsukai]

SSG isn't weaker than Buuhan and it's not barely stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Come on, now.

Why isn't it weaker than Buuhan? It's weaker than Android 17. It's weaker than Ultimate Gohan who re-acquired his power after training for one day. Why can't it be weaker than Buuhan?

The burden of proof is on you. You are introducing a new idea that changes what has been established (that Buuhan isn't a threat anymore), so you need to prove Buuhan is actually stronger than SSG.
Toriyama said fusion wasn't gonna cut it and introduced SSG. That's 2 + 2.
Then Base Beyond God, which is basically SSG, beat Freeza, who in his first form was between SS and Buu. His FF is 100-200x stronger than his first form, so he ends up top Z tier, and still not a match for SSG's power.
BBG was also seen again in the Commeson arc, and it easily stomped SS3 Gotenks.


Those guys are way stronger than SSG because (1) the story needed them to be, and (2) Gohan has insane potential and 17 was created stronger than SS, and he's been sparring with Cell Jrs who knows for how long. Both of them have incredible potential and have exploited it.

Because that's how fusion works? the base form is as strong as the fusee's strongest form.

Since when? The Z anime showed Base Vegito to be well above Ultimate Gohan nevermind Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

The manga showed Base Vegito perform far better than Super Saiyan Blue at that point. Super Saiyan Kefla just had the same strength as Super Saiyan Kale it was no better at all, just focused. Merged Zamasu wasn't leagues upon leagues more powerful than Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black, it was only the difference between Super Saiyan Blue at 100% and Super Saiyan Blue losing power.

Then in the anime base Kefla was far above Super Saiyan God which was not true for Kale or Caulifla separately.

In Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Super Saiyan Blue Vegito even with Kaioken was weaker than Ultra Instinct Goku.

Is Base Gogeta in the Broly movie supposed to be Ultra Instinct level?

If we are talking about how things WORK, we need to stick only to the original material, because Toriyama will not be watching SDB Heroes(which has different versions of each character, too) or the anime to come up with how HIS story is about to unfold.
So, in the manga, Vegito goes SS, why? probably because base wasn't enough.
All that about Zamasu and Kefla bolsters my point: potara fusion is not a set multiplier, it depends on the fusees. And both of those fusions were done under specific circumstances: Black was already transformed, and Kale was almost KO'd, so probably not examples good enough for analysis.
It's quite simple, really. The fusion has access to all the power available from the fusees, and on top of that, it can transform as many times as they can. That's what makes it so broken, not because it has an insane set multiplier.

And base Gogeta couldn't have been UI level because Goku did not have UI at that time. By now, he probably would.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Beerus only said he used 10%, doesn’t mean he needed it just like 50% Frieza vs Goku on Namek.

That line was obviously written with the 70% comment in mind. It's outdated and not a thing anymore.

That only tells us those characters are strong, not that freaking Gohan Buu is stronger than Super Saiyan God. That and we don’t even know what training 17 did, Trunks was fighting for his life for over a year, and Gohan is the king of BS powerups.

But why can't Buuhan be stronger than Super Saiyan God? People are making out he's some chump. He was the second most powerful character in the series with the combined power of two of the most powerful characters plus a few others on top.

Piccolo asked Android 17 what training he did. His response was that he'd just been protecting the island. Trunks was on the run for a year and barely had any food to eat. Gohan had stopped training except for that one day where he reawakened his power.

Goku trains non stop. He sparred with Vegeta for years straight. He's been given weighted suits. He's trained under an angel. He's had almost back to back fights with Beerus, Frieza, Hit, Goku Black, Merged Zamasu etc.

And Android 17 who protects animals from bandits is far stronger than Super Saiyan God which is meant to be stronger than a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito? They could have just summoned him and he could have wiped the floor with Buu himself?

[Xeno Goku Black]

The burden of proof is on you. You are introducing a new idea that changes what has been established (that Buuhan isn't a threat anymore), so you need to prove Buuhan is actually stronger than SSG.

But there is no proof one way or the other so that's a weird thing to say. If there was proof then it wouldn't be being mentioned in the first place.

Toriyama said fusion wasn't gonna cut it and introduced SSG.

Which failed. Toriyama then wrote Broly where Base fusion was superior to Super Saiyan Blue.

Then Base Beyond God, which is basically SSG, beat Freeza, who in his first form was between SS and Buu. His FF is 100-200x stronger than his first form, so he ends up top Z tier, and still not a match for SSG's power.
BBG was also seen again in the Commeson arc, and it easily stomped SS3 Gotenks.

All this is from the anime. My comment was based on the manga initially.

So, in the manga, Vegito goes SS, why? probably because base wasn't enough.

Which is fine. The anime too implied as much though it was still shown to be superior to Ultimate Gohan.

And both of those fusions were done under specific circumstances: Black was already transformed, and Kale was almost KO'd, so probably not examples good enough for analysis.

What does being transformed have to do with it? If Super Saiyan Goku fused with Super Saiyan Vegeta there's no saying that Super Saiyan Vegito would be any weaker and Kefla was in perfect condition upon fusing too.

The most basic and simplest fact to make is that in Broly, Super Saiyan Gogeta gave a bigger boost than Super Saiyan Blue. Something that seemed likely in both the anime and manga of the Future Trunks arc too.

So there is nothing to say now, and again especially in the manga which was is what I brought up, that Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. If you read the manga and the manga only nothing was said there.

So there's no reason why Super Saiyan God can't be closer to Buuhan. You can say what you will about the anime or Battle of Gods but I'm talking about the manga.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Breaking news: Super Saiyan 1 is probably Raditz level. Sure, it used to be Freeza level, but things have changed you know. Even a couple androids made with Earth technology are stronger now.

[Koitsukai]

The burden of proof is on you. You are introducing a new idea that changes what has been established (that Buuhan isn't a threat anymore), so you need to prove Buuhan is actually stronger than SSG.

But there is no proof one way or the other so that's a weird thing to say. If there was proof then it wouldn't be being mentioned in the first place.

Toriyama said fusion wasn't gonna cut it and introduced SSG.

Which failed. Toriyama then wrote Broly where Base fusion was superior to Super Saiyan Blue.

Then Base Beyond God, which is basically SSG, beat Freeza, who in his first form was between SS and Buu. His FF is 100-200x stronger than his first form, so he ends up top Z tier, and still not a match for SSG's power.
BBG was also seen again in the Commeson arc, and it easily stomped SS3 Gotenks.

All this is from the anime. My comment was based on the manga initially.

So, in the manga, Vegito goes SS, why? probably because base wasn't enough.

Which is fine. The anime too implied as much though it was still shown to be superior to Ultimate Gohan.

And both of those fusions were done under specific circumstances: Black was already transformed, and Kale was almost KO'd, so probably not examples good enough for analysis.

What does being transformed have to do with it? If Super Saiyan Goku fused with Super Saiyan Vegeta there's no saying that Super Saiyan Vegito would be any weaker and Kefla was in perfect condition upon fusing too.

The most basic and simplest fact to make is that in Broly, Super Saiyan Gogeta gave a bigger boost than Super Saiyan Blue. Something that seemed likely in both the anime and manga of the Future Trunks arc too.

So there is nothing to say now, and again especially in the manga which was is what I brought up, that Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. If you read the manga and the manga only nothing was said there.

So there's no reason why Super Saiyan God can't be closer to Buuhan. You can say what you will about the anime or Battle of Gods but I'm talking about the manga.

-It doesn't matter if SSG failed, even current UI would've failed, that doesn't mean it's weaker than Super Vegito.

-Base Beyond God was introduced in RoF. And the anime followed up on it, it uses the same principles: SSG power in base, and SSG being above the big hitters from Z.

-The anime implied base Vegito was above Buuhan, not just above Gohan.

-Being transformed matters because the fusion was stated to be best used in base. We'd need to see Goku and Vegeta fusing as SS first to see the result, after that happens we can come back and discuss it.

The DBS manga follows the basics of the movies, so if in BoG, SSG is said to be a better choice than SSG, you need to produce evidence that CONTRADICTS that in the manga. There's nothing like that in the manga, so... Occam's razor: SSG is the same in both continuities.

I've already stated this, others have too, so there's no point in saying it over and over again, so here's one last time: SS Gogeta, vs Broly is that strong, because his fusees are SSB tier, so Gogeta starts where the fusess left off, and builds his power on top of that.
This depends on how strong the fusees are at that given moment, they were SS2-3 in Z, so Vegito will start around that power. They were SSB tier in DBS, so Vegito and Gogeta will start around that power.

This makes much more sense than having Buuhan be God tier before that concept was even created, and having fought a SSB level opponent back in 1994. If Goku's personal UI happens to be UI Green... then Gogeta will start as strong as UI Green next time we see him, but it will not mean that Buuhan fought a UI Green level character back in Z.

[Thani]

To be fair, it's said to be best to fuse in base because otherwise the transformation would put a lot of stress on the body and reduce the fusee's lifespan or something.

[Xeno Goku Black]

-It doesn't matter if SSG failed, even current UI would've failed, that doesn't mean it's weaker than Super Vegito.

It doesn't mean its stronger either.

-The anime implied base Vegito was above Buuhan, not just above Gohan.

Buuhan still made a comment, though not that I remember it now though I know something was said, that did imply that Buuhan was still stronger than Base Vegito.

The DBS manga follows the basics of the movies, so if in BoG, SSG is said to be a better choice than SSG, you need to produce evidence that CONTRADICTS that in the manga. There's nothing like that in the manga, so... Occam's razor: SSG is the same in both continuities.

The manga follows a completely different scenario of Battle of Gods story than it did in the movie. There's no evidence to provide. It was simply just not said in the manga. The whole thing about Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God also was never said which is probably why the power scaling makes more sense. It doesn't mean those things can't still be the case but it is an assumption to say its the same.

And again, going by the manga only. Nothing from the movie, anime, interviews, promotion etc. Just from reading the manga and nothing more, there is nothing to say that Super Saiyan God can or can not be stronger or weaker than Super Vegito.

This depends on how strong the fusees are at that given moment, they were SS2-3 in Z, so Vegito will start around that power. They were SSB tier in DBS, so Vegito and Gogeta will start around that power.

Based on what? Where is the assumption coming from that fusions starting off point must be on the same level as the individuals max? There was never any indication how strong Base Vegito was in the manga. Neither Kale or Caulifla were even Super Saiyan God tier, they stood no chance and yet Base Kefla was still far above Super Saiyan God.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, it's said to be best to fuse in base because otherwise the transformation would put a lot of stress on the body and reduce the fusee's lifespan or something.

That’s Old Kaioshin criticism on transformations as a whole, not transforming before fusing specifically.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Also, Fusions depend on the fusees' compatibility too, it seems.

Goku and Vegeta are quite alike, yet also different, driving each other through their clashing but surprisingly complementary personalities and training/fighting philosophies. The result is that their Potara AND Metamoran Fusions end up massively strong and extremely competent.

Meanwhile, Gotenks is composed of Trunks and Goten who are both fairly childish and not really rivals who drive and contrast each other. While their Fusion is strong by virtue of their own latent potential and similarities, it seems to lack that added spark to really put Gotenks over the edge. I think a similar case happened with Merged Zamasu. Goku Black and Future Zamasu were very similar in mindset since they're literally the same person from different timelines. While there's a form of compatibility, it seems to end up shallow as an end result due to nothing really blending to complement one another.

[Koitsukai]

IIRC, Old Kaioshin is the one who mentioned a rival boost, Vegito and Gogeta are the only rival fusions, aside of Kaioshin and the witch.

Every other fusion consists of non-rivals (close friends, worshipers and even the same dude). For the manga, that is, the closer the fusees are the less impressive the fusion is, Gotenks needed to train ffs, Kefla couldn't even take Gohan, and Zamasu was as strong as PB Goku. In the anime, it's indistinct, every fusion stomps.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

IIRC, Old Kaioshin is the one who mentioned a rival boost, Vegito and Gogeta are the only rival fusions, aside of Kaioshin and the witch.

Every other fusion consists of non-rivals (close friends, worshipers and even the same dude). For the manga, that is, the closer the fusees are the less impressive the fusion is, Gotenks needed to train ffs, Kefla couldn't even take Gohan, and Zamasu was as strong as PB Goku. In the anime, it's indistinct, every fusion stomps.

To be fair, there are some mitigating factors even in the anime. Merged Zamasu didn't start off being so much higher than SSB Goku and Vegeta and needed to become a horrific mutant whose own body was breaking down at the seams to become even with Vegito. Kale ended up more confident and less meek with a greater control over her power which may have helped Kefla's evolution compared to the manga alongside the relationship between Caulifla and Kale being different and potentially better suited to compatibility.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Xeno Black actually has a point about questioning the idea that fused beings start off on the same level as the individuals’ strongest form. This is largely because Saiyans get stronger in all their forms when they train, thus resulting in a greater effect on their fusion. It’s not supposed to be dependent on unlocking new forms, as far as we know. If anything its introduction in Boo arc corroborates that its result relies on the level of ki they are emitting when they perform the technique, at least on Metamoran method. Goku suggests they raise their ki as high as they can and adjust to each other, sort of implying the fusion power will depend on how far they can reach in that exercise.

It’s worth noting that, in the theatrical Battle of Gods movie, the scene in which Goku reflects on fusing with Vegeta to fight Beerus is not present, if that means something to you. It’s instead in the extended version. It is present in the anime though and not in the manga, so it seems kinda inconclusive if you have to consider it or not, but I guess there is no problem in assuming this comes from Toriyama’s intent, at least. Some time later Goku reflects on SSG being a level of power he never thought possible, which you can easily interpret as evidence that it’s stronger than Super Vegetto, but you can as easily assume it was inconceivable for him as an individual. Both takes are possible.

[HeroR]

I think Xeno Black actually has a point about questioning the idea that fused beings start off on the same level as the individuals’ strongest form. This is largely because Saiyans get stronger in all their forms when they train, thus resulting in a greater effect on their fusion. It’s not supposed to be dependent on unlocking new forms, as far as we know. If anything its introduction in Boo arc corroborates that its result relies on the level of ki they are emitting when they perform the technique, at least on Metamoran method. Goku suggests they raise their ki as high as they can and adjust to each other, sort of implying the fusion power will depend on how far they can reach in that exercise.

It’s worth noting that, in the theatrical Battle of Gods movie, the scene in which Goku reflects on fusing with Vegeta to fight Beerus is not present, if that means something to you. It’s instead in the extended version. It is present in the anime though and not in the manga, so it seems kinda inconclusive if you have to consider it or not, but I guess there is no problem in assuming this comes from Toriyama’s intent, at least. Some time later Goku reflects on SSG being a level of power he never thought possible, which you can easily interpret as evidence that it’s stronger than Super Vegetto, but you can as easily assume it was inconceivable for him as an individual. Both takes are possible.

Dragon Ball isn't that complicated. For the most part, people need to take what Dragon Ball say at its word instead of trying hand wave or claimed something have been retcon. Like when Goku said that Broly maybe stronger than Beerus people put themselves into knots saying how Goku didn't know what he was talking about because he has never seen Beerus' full power and it was Toei's wank, only for the next movie to more or less imply that Broly is indeed within Beerus' power range. Same with Jiren who people try to downplay by saying he's only stronger than Belmond and Beerus can apparently one-shot Belmond, all because people didn't want to believe that the gods were relative to each other despite the manga showing us that was the case during the free-for-all battle and the anime more or less put Jiren over Beerus via statements by Whis, so fans had to twist themselves in knots to say that Beerus smashed all the gods outside of the mouse god and Whis wasn't being serious when he claimed a 'mortal that a God of Destruction couldn't beat, and that god happened to be stronger than Beerus'.

In short, Goku put Super Saiyan God over Fusion in both the extended cut of the movie, which was cut during the original run due to time since the extended cut is nearly two hours long, the anime retelling done years later stated the same thing, Goku called Super Saiyan God a power unlike any he had felt before and he was half Vegito, and the anime double down by showing base Vegeta smashing Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks when that arc was written at the same time as the Future Trunks Saga where Vegito Blue appeared. So there is no real evidence pointing to Super Vegito being above Super Saiyan God, but we have plenty of statements saying Super Saiyan God stomps Super Vegito from the Buu Saga.

TLDR: Unless we get something like the Vegito Blue retcon, you can't dismissed statements. Especially when those statements were double down on.

[pepd]

I keep see people agreeing on that we know that (post-SSB) SS fusion is stronger than SSB, could someone explain to me why? I saw a mention of Broly, is that it? That's valid for the official story, that I understand is what most people care for, but I see some also talk about what Tori stablished/considers, and for that that's not enough, since we don't really know what he wrote or didn't, specially in fights.
I don't have a position or anything, just curious if I'm missing something.

[Goku9001]

We are blatantly told power of fusion increases more drastically in proportion to the improvements the fusees make. That is, whatever improvements Goku and Vegeta makes over the course of the series leads to an ever greater boost in power made by Gogeta. Thus, while Base Vegetto only surpassed the power of Super Saiyan 3 during Z and the beginning of Battle of Gods, the improvements Goku and Vegeta had made throughout the entire series allowed Base Gogeta/Base Vegetto to currently outstrip the Blue Saiyans. That would seem consistent with what Piccolo states to the kids.

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

It would also be consistent with how Gotenks' power is presented after training in the RoSaT. The kids' powers aren't hinted to have changed all that much. They were relatively close to the adults prior to the RoSaT and yet still weaker than the adults after. However, we are told that their Base Fusion after training is able to face up to Super Buu. The power Super Buu was exhibiting was something that Piccolo knew for a fact that Super Saiyan Gotenks could not match up to prior.

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

The reason why Base Fusion during the Zamasu and Broly arcs surpasses Blue tier despite their Base Fusion being much weaker than God is simply because Goku and Vegeta are becoming stronger and those gains are magnified when performing fusion. I don't think that has anything to do with their top form and everything to do how fusion magnifies the power of the fusees.

[Goku9001]

In response to the whole Ultimate Gohan debate, I don't really think it's up to debate. Not only was fusion presented as an inferior option compared to Super Saiyan God in the movie and anime, but the movie and anime presents Goku as a power that is greater than Ultimate Gohan and Enraged Vegeta's power is on a far greater level compared to Goku's. Super Saiyan God absolutely knocks these powers right out of the park. I believe in the movie, Gohan also mentions how Super Saiyan Goku after failing the ritual was the strongest power he had ever sensed. Super Saiyan God had already exceeded Goku's expectations and Goku's power was growing stronger with it the more he fought. In the manga's case, Super Saiyan God is stated to transcend Goku's imagination which would encompass fusion because it's within Goku's realm of understanding. There's legitimately no way Ultimate Gohan (ToP) is below Buuhan when he rivals Perfected Blue Goku who is way beyond Super Saiyan God upon debut.

[Hugo Boss]

Dragon Ball isn't that complicated. For the most part, people need to take what Dragon Ball say at its word instead of trying hand wave or claimed something have been retcon.
[...]
In short, Goku put Super Saiyan God over Fusion in both the extended cut of the movie, which was cut during the original run due to time since the extended cut is nearly two hours long, the anime retelling done years later stated the same thing, Goku called Super Saiyan God a power unlike any he had felt before and he was half Vegito, and the anime double down by showing base Vegeta smashing Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks when that arc was written at the same time as the Future Trunks Saga where Vegito Blue appeared. So there is no real evidence pointing to Super Vegito being above Super Saiyan God, but we have plenty of statements saying Super Saiyan God stomps Super Vegito from the Buu Saga.

I agree to the extent that taking it at its word is the most reasonable approach, but I feel like in this case you had to fill in Goku thoughts to draw the implication that is being worded here. Just to be clear, the idea that SSG is above Super Vegetto is generally preferred, but I understand that it is mostly an educated guess, not an outlined fact in its birthplace, specially because the manga is very direct on what Goku intended there (he compares SSG to himself from moments ago).

Like when Goku said that Broly maybe stronger than Beerus people put themselves into knots saying how Goku didn't know what he was talking about because he has never seen Beerus' full power and it was Toei's wank, only for the next movie to more or less imply that Broly is indeed within Beerus' power range. Same with Jiren who people try to downplay by saying he's only stronger than Belmond and Beerus can apparently one-shot Belmond, all because people didn't want to believe that the gods were relative to each other despite the manga showing us that was the case during the free-for-all battle and the anime more or less put Jiren over Beerus via statements by Whis, so fans had to twist themselves in knots to say that Beerus smashed all the gods outside of the mouse god and Whis wasn't being serious when he claimed a 'mortal that a God of Destruction couldn't beat, and that god happened to be stronger than Beerus'.

It's interesting that you mentioned this tidbit, because this is largely a point in which animated projects and manga sorta diverge between themselves. Beerus is implied to be stronger than Broly and Jiren in the manga, while in the anime and movies he was surpassed by them.

I keep see people agreeing on that we know that (post-SSB) SS fusion is stronger than SSB, could someone explain to me why? I saw a mention of Broly, is that it? That's valid for the official story, that I understand is what most people care for, but I see some also talk about what Tori stablished/considers, and for that that's not enough, since we don't really know what he wrote or didn't, specially in fights.
I don't have a position or anything, just curious if I'm missing something.

That's because SS Gogeta could fight more than evenly against SS Broly, when not even SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta together couldn't. Maybe this is not exactly outlined in the original draft, because Toyotaro doesn't depict that fight (he has SS Broly fight SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta and then SSB Gogeta) and so far we know Toriyama didn't design the final version of SS Broly, but for the intent of movie continuity I think you can take that fight for granted.