Unpopular DB opinions

[TobyS]

This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, but is there some kind of term for people who think their opinion is unpopular, when in reality it's an almost universally-held opinion?

"GT is actually bad"
Yeah, most people will say that it's not good, but they enjoy this or that, so they prefer it.

"Vegeta/Gohan is way cooler than Goku"
I hear this so often, I'm almost confused anytime polls show Goku is higher, even if it's by a slight margin, like I've never actually heard anyone say Goku is their favorite character.

Not that these opinions are wrong or dumb or anything. But I often see people say these as if they're the first or only person to step up and admit these kinds of things.

I think because Goku is the main character and gets lots a screen time. His fans are silently happy.

Whereas vegeta fans cry every single month that he should be able to kill a main villian even though no other character does. Noisy minorities can appear to be majorities. It's like a confirmation bias.

[MasenkoHA]

I have an unpopular opinion is related to this topic: I'm not overly concerned with changing character names to "preserve the pun", as it were. Most of it's down to personal preference (opinion, after all), but I just don't see it as that big of a deal compared to some purist fans, and some efforts to alter or translate the puns to English miss the mark, IMO. For instance, changing "Toppo" to "Top" communicates the pun of his name being a reverse of "pot", fitting the kitchen utensil theme of Universe 11... but it's way less distinctive and, in contrast to the Daishinkan example, cuts out a syllable (of a two-syllable name) unnecessarily, making the lip flaps harder to match. I may have watched subs first, but he'll always be Toppo to me.

I pretty much agree with this but also want to add since its a Japanese story things are going to be lost in translation no matter what.

Like, Gohan's name means rice but it can also mean meal. The Japanese anime made the same pun in the first Z movie and the first episode of Z "Gohan-chan Gohan yo" (and also that time Mr.Satan heard his name and assumed he was a bento salesboy) and yeah the English dub could have changed his name to Meal to keep the jokes but I think its far more important he has a similar name to Goku than to preserve a superfluous joke and also Meal is way less dignified to say as a name than Gohan.

Same with Bulma. The the dub could have called her Bloomers, I guess, but most people in the Anglosphere don't associate bloomers with girls gym shorts and Bulma is written on her clothes in plain roman letters way to often I think calling her anything else but Bulma be it Lena, Bloomers, Buruma, or Blooma would be more distracting than anything.

But also making Briefs her family name instead of just her dad's name allows them to keep the joke in their own way.

An example I've never understood is the Viz manga translation changing Pui Pui to "Pocus", yet not changing Yakon to anything more Westernised. Seriously, why was only Pui Pui changed? Both his and Yakon's names are already puns on Japanese baby-talk incantations, with Yakon's apparently being derived from another anime. Pui Pui actually has a cool specific meaning: chinchin-puipui is the Japanese equivalent of mothers kissing their kid's knee scrape injury to make them feel better. Pocus, ironically, dilutes the meaning and relates to the character far less -- his original Japanese name helps to communicate that he is a piss-ant weakling. His English "translated" name only connects him to the magical theme for Western audiences but doesn't carry quite the same implication.

This is a perfect example because yeah Pocus is a loose (extremely loose) equivalent to his Japanese name but misses the damn point by removing him from his Japanese origin. I really do not care if Funimation knew or cared what Pui Pui comes from, they probably assumed it was made up gibberish to sound alien, I'm glad they left it as.

. To me, it's not much different to Harmony Gold calling Goku "Zero", or whatever the hell they called him. It's just another example of Westerners thinking they know better than the source material they're being employed to translate faithfully. We could theoretically alter many other characters' names to make the jokes behind them clearer for English speakers (Kuririn, Ginyu, just to name a few), but we only do it in arbitrary cases like this for whatever reason.

Right. I get that Zero kind of retains the meaning of Son Goku/Sun Wukong but it loses the point that he's suppose to share the same name as the Monkey King just the Japanese reading of his name.

[MuscleRobo]

I have heard the term before but I feel it's a little out of place in Dragon Ball. This is a Japanese cartoon aimed at an audience that could handle it.

This stuff is really common in Japanese childrens' shows, especially nowadays.

I gave examples of a shonen manga, a show aimed at elementary school girls and a show aimed at teen boys that all had explicitly gay characters and came out within the last five years. I think all of these could be compared to Dragon Ball in some way. Can you at least provide an example of an author saying they did this? I provided an example of a western creator saying "Yes, we had to gay code this character." I'm unaware of this having to be a thing in Japan when it's already in so much but the only rebuttal I get is "Yeah, but it's obvious they're gay." I mean maybe they're touchy about it in baby anime like Synapse-Kun or Anpanman?

[MasenkoHA]

Once again, queer coding is not "Yeah the creator of the show confirmed character was gay but wasn't allowed to say it because of broadcast standards"

[jjgp1112]

Same with Bulma. The the dub could have called her Bloomers, I guess, but most people in the Anglosphere don't associate bloomers with girls gym shorts and Bulma is written on her clothes in plain roman letters way to often I think calling her anything else but Bulma be it Lena, Bloomers, Buruma, or Blooma would be more distracting than anything.

But also making Briefs her family name instead of just her dad's name allows them to keep the joke in their own way.

I have a dub-only headcanon that Bulma's real government name is in fact Bluma but she flipped the letters out of embarrassment and before pre-school went as far as hacking the school's records to ensure nobody would ever know her by that name. And her parents just roll with it to avoid her temper tantrums

[MasenkoHA]

Same with Bulma. The the dub could have called her Bloomers, I guess, but most people in the Anglosphere don't associate bloomers with girls gym shorts and Bulma is written on her clothes in plain roman letters way to often I think calling her anything else but Bulma be it Lena, Bloomers, Buruma, or Blooma would be more distracting than anything.

But also making Briefs her family name instead of just her dad's name allows them to keep the joke in their own way.

I have a dub-only headcanon that Bulma's real government name is in fact Bluma but she flipped the letters out of embarrassment and before pre-school went as far as hacking the school's records to ensure nobody would ever know her by that name. And her parents just roll with it to avoid her temper tantrums

Ya know what that actually makes sense for Bulma. Especially Vollmer's Bulma.

[dva_raza]

Also, it really pisses me off how a lot of fans have invented this idea that Vegeta 'works the hardest'

Vegeta is literally introduced in the series as above Goku, metaphorically and literally, so this idea that Vegeta is somehow an underdog is at odds with Goku's story.

Also, I don't know how unpopular this opinion is in non-TFS circles but at least in Z, Vegeta is in no way a better father than Goku.

Oh yeah, and the only time when I think that "VeGeTa DeSeRvEd A w." was when he failed to kill Golden Freeza.

Yeah all that, except for the last part lol. He didn't deserve anything.
Frieza was there for Goku, not Vegeta.

But yeah people seem to confuse Vegeta whining a lot with him being an underdog.

Also, when other characters make stupid decisions in the show they get far less hate for it than Vegeta does

That's just probably cause they aren't ex murderers other than Piccolo, who rarely makes stupid decisions.

"Some people see trying to learn without a teacher as badass, but I just see it as dumb."

The fact that Vegeta got as far as he did without any mentor or outside help (Until he met Whis) is actually impressive, and it makes Goku look kind-of worse as a fighter for needing to be taught things that others learned on their own.

Vegeta getting transformations thru exposition is impressive? "Ah yeah..he also has SSG now..cus he trained! even though it was established that a ritual was required". I mean he always had the advantage already, he's the "prodigy". But it's pretty clear he just gets thrown whatever needed to be on par with Goku.

[MCDaveG]

This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, but is there some kind of term for people who think their opinion is unpopular, when in reality it's an almost universally-held opinion?

"GT is actually bad"
Yeah, most people will say that it's not good, but they enjoy this or that, so they prefer it.

"Vegeta/Gohan is way cooler than Goku"
I hear this so often, I'm almost confused anytime polls show Goku is higher, even if it's by a slight margin, like I've never actually heard anyone say Goku is their favorite character.

Not that these opinions are wrong or dumb or anything. But I often see people say these as if they're the first or only person to step up and admit these kinds of things.

Well, Goku is my favorite character, watching the series from beginning, I was really surprised how much he isn't there in Z or part of most of the arcs except for the climax. Disregarding the movies - he dies few episodes in and trains with Kaio, turns up in time to wreck Nappa and Vegeta... he is left out of the beginning and middle of Namek, because he heals and then flies a long time and trains. He vanishes with Namek again, shows up at the beginning of Android arc, gets sick, shows up to fight Cell later, dies. He is barelly in Buu arc, just to show off SSJ3 and then fight Buu when everything is quite lost.

I don't know about the term you're looking for, but I would say redundant? Same as with "Star Wars sequel is a cinematic failure, watch 1 hour rant to see why."
On every corner, you hear people say how GT is bad, how Goku is a bad father, that Dragon Ball is 20 minutes of scream and powering up, how Goku is always in the spotlight etc. I would say that it is quite redundant (and I know that I am like that as well sometimes ).

[MrGohanks]

Also, it really pisses me off how a lot of fans have invented this idea that Vegeta 'works the hardest'

Vegeta is literally introduced in the series as above Goku, metaphorically and literally, so this idea that Vegeta is somehow an underdog is at odds with Goku's story.

Also, I don't know how unpopular this opinion is in non-TFS circles but at least in Z, Vegeta is in no way a better father than Goku.

Oh yeah, and the only time when I think that "VeGeTa DeSeRvEd A w." was when he failed to kill Golden Freeza.

Yeah all that, except for the last part lol. He didn't deserve anything.
Frieza was there for Goku, not Vegeta.

But yeah people seem to confuse Vegeta whining a lot with him being an underdog.

Also, when other characters make stupid decisions in the show they get far less hate for it than Vegeta does

That's just probably cause they aren't ex murderers other than Piccolo, who rarely makes stupid decisions.

"Some people see trying to learn without a teacher as badass, but I just see it as dumb."

The fact that Vegeta got as far as he did without any mentor or outside help (Until he met Whis) is actually impressive, and it makes Goku look kind-of worse as a fighter for needing to be taught things that others learned on their own.

Vegeta getting transformations thru exposition is impressive? "Ah yeah..he also has SSG now..cus he trained! even though it was established that a ritual was required". I mean he always had the advantage already, he's the "prodigy". But it's pretty clear he just gets thrown whatever needed to be on par with Goku.

- When, Post-Z, is he ever shown whining about anything at all?

- Piccolo consistently made stupid decisions throughout most of Z, one of the biggest being him demanding that he'd go to Namek to fight Freeza at all (which went against the entire point of the Namek saga). Its just a double standard and fandom bias from Vegeta haters. Being an ex-murderer or whatever doesn't matter.

- You aren't making any sense lol. It was never stated anywhere that the Ritual was the only way to unlock SSG. Vegeta got the form by training with Whis for 6 months after BoG, and Goku himself give Vegeta props for that in RoF. Plus, fact that he got it through real effort instead of some cheap easy plot device like the Ritual (which Goku himself was dissatisfied with in BoG) lends credibility to the idea that Vegeta works the hardest out of everybody.

And I wasn't even mainly talking about transformations in my first post, I'm talking about the fact that all of Vegeta's abilities and techniques prior to RoF was self-taught, while all of Goku's even now is stolen or learned from others. Needing outside help for what others can do on their own is a bad look, and "he got it through exposition" is a dumb argument because it doesn't change the facts of how exactly how he got it in-universe.

[MrGohanks]

This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, but is there some kind of term for people who think their opinion is unpopular, when in reality it's an almost universally-held opinion?

"GT is actually bad"
Yeah, most people will say that it's not good, but they enjoy this or that, so they prefer it.

"Vegeta/Gohan is way cooler than Goku"
I hear this so often, I'm almost confused anytime polls show Goku is higher, even if it's by a slight margin, like I've never actually heard anyone say Goku is their favorite character.

Not that these opinions are wrong or dumb or anything. But I often see people say these as if they're the first or only person to step up and admit these kinds of things.

I think because Goku is the main character and gets lots a screen time. His fans are silently happy.

Whereas vegeta fans cry every single month that he should be able to kill a main villian even though no other character does. Noisy minorities can appear to be majorities. It's like a confirmation bias.

Gohan, Future Trunks

Spoiler:

And Freeza

say hi.

[MrGohanks]

This isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, but is there some kind of term for people who think their opinion is unpopular, when in reality it's an almost universally-held opinion?

"GT is actually bad"
Yeah, most people will say that it's not good, but they enjoy this or that, so they prefer it.

"Vegeta/Gohan is way cooler than Goku"
I hear this so often, I'm almost confused anytime polls show Goku is higher, even if it's by a slight margin, like I've never actually heard anyone say Goku is their favorite character.

Not that these opinions are wrong or dumb or anything. But I often see people say these as if they're the first or only person to step up and admit these kinds of things.

There's a lot of GT revisionism and apologetics among the fandom, especially since 2015. There's plenty of it in this websites forums and arguably the most infamous example is the YouTuber Saiyan Scholar. So saying "GT is actually garbage" is not an unanimous opinion anymore.

Goku is still the most popular character in the franchise, just not by any large degree. And plenty of fans everywhere have Goku as their favorite character.

[dva_raza]

- When, Post-Z, is he ever shown whining about anything at all?

Literally any time Goku is out doing/getting something he’s not?

Every motivation he feels in Super comes from jealousy, giving the illusion that he's this hard worker who cant’ get the better end of the stick... except again, he was the prodigy. If he started being like 10k more powerful that Goku and immediately fell behind to always be whining about “surpassing” Goku it’s proably cus he doesn’t know how to train effectively.

You aren't making any sense lol. It was never stated anywhere that the Ritual was the only way to unlock SSG.

Vegeta got the form by training with Whis for 6 months after BoG, and Goku himself give Vegeta props for that in RoF.

I’m not making sense because I considered Shenron’s statement, a statement?

He went on for 5 minutes about what a SS God is and never said it was simply a form obtainable by any Saiyan who is able to get God Ki through any means.

And yeah, Goku giving Vegeta "props" for it is exactly the exposition that I mean. It's just a mention. Which you accept fine for Vegeta, but whenever Goku gets something in that way, then you call it "an asspull".

And I wasn't even mainly talking about transformations in my first post, I'm talking about the fact that all of Vegeta's abilities and techniques prior to RoF was self-taught, while all of Goku's even now is stolen or learned from others. Needing outside help for what others can do on their own is a bad look, and "he got it through exposition" is a dumb argument because it doesn't change the facts of how exactly how he got it in-universe

It's not dumb when these "in universe facts" are achieved with retcons.
I wasn’t talking exclusively about transformations either, I just gave one example. His "win" in the latest film is another one.

They resorted to Goku being all of a sudden against meditation (???) to be able to justify that little fan-service.

Also it's absurd for you to say Goku looks bad because he's open to learn from others when the first time Vegeta has become on par with Goku happened after he accepted to learn from others.

[Inkei9001]

You're not wrong , but arguing with Vegeta simps will never get you anywhere. They are too busy defending a genocidal maniac because the dub made him seem like a better dad than Goku and gave him a few lines that inspire neckbeards

[Hellspawn28]

I think the whole reason why Super can't go beyond Uub is because of GT still having content in Heroes is a dumb reason. They can still make a story set after Age 784 and still have GT stuff show up in other media. We still have DBZ Broly in other DB media despite having DBS Broly existing.

[Peach]

I thought

Spoiler:

Cell Max

was fine.

Spoiler:

If he had more of a personality, it might have taken away from the focus on Gohan, Piccolo, the Gamma's, and the characters.

[Modern_Dingus]

Saw the movie today so, this has spoilers;

Spoiler:

I was kinda disappointed, when I read that the movie was orignally going to be a Piccolo movie, but they worked Gohan in to be a more major part of it, I was hesitant but still excited. I cannot overstate how weird it is that literally Gohan gets that last transformation at the end almost out of nowhere and it's hardly in the movie, they really should've just had Piccolo kill Cell Max while defending Gohan.

Probably not unpopular, but dear god, the amount of time they repeat info from the series or to just set up stuff is INSANE; they need to figure out how to set things up, or explain them without having characters outright state " You could be this strong" or "Oh yeah, he's your dad, oh yeah, he's your grandpa" like you somehow forgot the immediate members of Pan's family.

The part on Beerus' planet was unnecessary, I get that movie won't sell if Goku and Vegeta aren't in it apparently, but dear god, it was just dumb. Watching Goku having to be told "you need to focus on the mental part" like he never trained with Roshi, Kami, or Whis and learned that lesson multiple times over. Can't wait to power scalers try to turn that gag scene of Vegeta """beating""" Goku into proof that he's actually stronger.

It was awesome when it was about Piccolo, The Red Ribbon Army, and Pan. Everything else just felt like "This is a Dragon Ball movie so we GOTTA talk about POWER 50 times and we GOTTA have Saiyans. Remember when you were 12 and you saw Gohan vs. Cell??? Remember how cool that was????

[OmegaAlphaDelta123]

Yeah all that, except for the last part lol. He didn't deserve anything.
Frieza was there for Goku, not Vegeta.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Vegeta deserved to beat Freeza because of some BS Funimation "Freeza tortured him as a kid" revisionism, nor does it have anything to do with how I feel about him as a character. I just think that it made better sense narratively for Vegeta to kill Frieza.

In terms of Cell and Buu, the main reason I think that Vegeta didn't deserve to kill them was because he was the main reason they became as much a threat as they were and as for Namek Freeza's beatdown of him, I just saw as an asshole getting his just desserts by an even bigger asshole. However, against Golden Freeza, Goku was the one to screw up by letting his guard down despite knowing the type of person Frieza was and paid the price while Vegeta didn't really make any mistakes on the same level. I feel neutral on Vegeta killing Golden Freeza, but it's certainly a far better ending than having Whis rewind time and make Goku's mistake against Freeza meaningless. It'd be like if someone rewound time to before Cell became Perfect just so Vegeta could kill Semi-Perfect Cell. It also started the trend of Whis acting as a Deus Ex Machina any time the Z-Fighters need something, which isn't something I enjoy.

[OmegaAlphaDelta123]

No offense, but you sound like a really butthurt Vegeta hater.

Not going to lie. Yes, yes I am. He's a character who served his purpose after Namek and who after being revived, did nothing but hog the spotlight from characters who I found far more interesting like Krillin, Yamcha, Tien and Piccolo, each of whom had redeeming qualities before joining the Z-Fighters and who didn't commit genocide on a planetary scale multiple times. (Not to mention him killing innocent civilians in the tournament because "I wAnNa FiGhT mUh KaKaRrOt!") Him still hanging around after Namek is like Darth Vader chilling with the rebels at the end of Return of the Jedi. I may be neutral to lukewarm on him as he is now, but after seeing how much better Zuko's redemption was handled in Avatar: The Last Airbender, I don't like how his redemption was handled at all and therefore, don't like him in the Cell or Buu Sagas.

First of all, Yamcha's character wasn't assassinated, he was always a memetic loser and a joke character even when he was a villain.

I'm not talking about his status as a memetic loser, I'm talking about the fact that Toriyama made Yamcha a cheater to justify Bulma sleeping with Vegeta. Yamcha is characterised early on as a romantic in nature who wants to get married, so the idea that he would cheat on the only steady girlfriend he ever had is nothing but as dbz_raza put it, unbelievable exposition that contradicts his character. It's something bad fanfiction writers do to get their favourite couples together, not something you'd expect from a professional writer

2nd, Bulma has a history with liking evil men and when she was with Yamcha she would constantly hit on other men even in front of him.

Except all the other times that Bulma hit on men, it was played for laughs. We don't even get any foreshadowing that Bulma had a thing for Vegeta, even on Namek. There is no organic reason that they got together except that Toriyama needed an available womb to produce Trunks. Even the voice actors of the three characters involved thought it made no sense. Here's an interview of the interview in the Daizenshuu:

Tsuru (Bulma): One day, all of a sudden, she married Vegeta and gave birth to Trunks… “Huh? What just happened here?” is how it felt.

Horikawa (Vegeta): There wasn’t even any sort of foreshadowing.

Furuya (Yamcha): At that time, I just wanted to leave the studio and go home.

Tsuru (Bulma): However, after that, I tried to bring myself to love Vegeta, but… it was a struggle.

Retrieved from https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... ice-talks/

3rd, there was no actual shift in Vegeta's character after Namek. The reason why he acted pragmatic in Namek was because he was dealing with an army of fighters that he knows from the start that are stronger than him, which wasn't the case in every other arc including the Saiyan saga.

This may be true, but I like it when characters are forced to act outside their comfort zones and I find Vegeta acting like a tactical strategist who tries to survive, even resorting to teaming up with Gohan and Kuririn against the Ginyu Force and Frieza while also acting like a wild card far more interesting than the bland anti-hero who screws everything up and gets away with it without so much as a slap on the wrist. The fact that he can't sense when villains are stronger than him in the Cell and Buu Saga and the story doesn't let him use any sort of tactics is disappointing to me.

Also, when other characters make stupid decisions in the show they get far less hate for it than Vegeta does, even though those other characters are actively going against their interests and goals in protecting the Earth while Vegeta (until the later half of the Buu saga) had zero interest or care in saving the world so he shouldn't have been expected to make responsible choices in the first place.

See, if the Z-Fighters knew that Vegeta couldn't be trusted with protecting the world in the Cell Saga going onwards, why would they trust him with the info that the Androids were going to show up? Why would they trust him with anything after he let Cell become perfect? If you think the Z-Fighters have a vested interest in protecting the Earth, then they should also care about getting Vegeta to piss off, since he was a direct threat to Earth in the Saiyan Saga and an indirect threat to it in the Cell and Buu Sagas. I mean, it's not like they needed him around any more after Namek since Goku was there.

Also, the motive behind a lot of the Z-Fighter's stupid decisions doesn't come across as arrogant and petty as Vegeta's do. Vegeta made his stupid decisions because of some vague poorly defined "Saiyan pride," that just seems to be the default excuse for whenever he decides to do something stupid. (E.g. letting Cell become Perfect because of his raging ego or letting Babidi control him to have a dick-measuring contest with Goku because he's still so insecure about the fact he can't catch up to him.) Piccolo's decision to go to Namek, while dumb is something I can understand because he wanted Freeza to pay for slaughtering his people. Krillin stomping the remote to avoid killing 18 I can understand because as an Android, she hadn't done anything wrong and didn't appear evil. Goku throwing Cell a Sensu Bean is something I can understand because he saw Gohan's power in the Time Chamber, he wanted Cell to have a fair fight and he genuinely believed in his son that much. (It still fits his characterization during the end of the Piccolo Jr Arc, too.) All of those decisions, dumb as they are come across as a lot more understandable and nuanced than Vegeta selfishly screwing everyone over with his own ego

"VeGeTa OnLy ExIsT tO MoVe ThE pLoT fOrWaRd", that's what a character in a story is supposed to do lol, he is the only non-protagonist fighter beside Future Trunks who's actions actually matter and have any real consequences to them. The rest of the supporting cast most of the time could be removed from a Saga's plot and nothing would change, which is a massive red flag that suggests that they are a nothing character.

I mean, sure, but it makes Vegeta come across as a moron and it makes the Z-Fighters come across as morons for putting up with his shit for so long. Just like how Dragon Ball Super anime Goku comes across as a moron for his actions even if they move the plot forward. To me, Vegeta's idiocy don't make Cell or Babidi look better as villains, it just makes Vegeta look worse for falling for such obvious ploys. So yes, Vegeta does move the plot forward, but moving the plot forward because of your own incompetence is not a good look for a character imo. (See DBS Goku.)

And no, TFS has zero influence on the DragonBall franchise. DBZ Abriged is just an obscure online parody series that's only known among North American fans, the vast majority of DB fans worldwide has never even heard of it, especially Japan. Hell, even most of the English dub voice actors never heard of DBZ Abridged until fans told them about it.

Could have fooled me between Mr Popo's stare when Vegeta breaks the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Goku being a dumbass and bad father being exaggerated up to eleven, but whatever.

And I wasn't even mainly talking about transformations in my first post, I'm talking about the fact that all of Vegeta's abilities and techniques prior to RoF was self-taught, while all of Goku's even now is stolen or learned from others. Needing outside help for what others can do on their own is a bad look, and "he got it through exposition" is a dumb argument because it doesn't change the facts of how exactly how he got it in-universe.

Vegeta "stole" Kuririn's Kienzan to use against Gohan in the Saiyan Saga. If you're going to get mad at Goku for "stealing" the Kamehameha or Taiyoken, Vegeta has used an unoriginal technique against the Z-Fighters before.

Even then, all of Vegeta's original attacks pre Moro Arc (Galick Gun, Big Bang Attack, Final Flash) are just based on overpowering your opponent with a beam or ball, something that any other Z-Fighter can do while he doesn't have any moves that could help him against a stronger opponent. This just further proves dbz_raza and I's point that Vegeta just tries to brute force all his enemies and isn't a good strategist before the Moro Arc.

[coola]

Saw the movie today so, this has spoilers;

Spoiler:

I was kinda disappointed, when I read that the movie was orignally going to be a Piccolo movie, but they worked Gohan in to be a more major part of it, I was hesitant but still excited. I cannot overstate how weird it is that literally Gohan gets that last transformation at the end almost out of nowhere and it's hardly in the movie, they really should've just had Piccolo kill Cell Max while defending Gohan.

Probably not unpopular, but dear god, the amount of time they repeat info from the series or to just set up stuff is INSANE; they need to figure out how to set things up, or explain them without having characters outright state " You could be this strong" or "Oh yeah, he's your dad, oh yeah, he's your grandpa" like you somehow forgot the immediate members of Pan's family.

The part on Beerus' planet was unnecessary, I get that movie won't sell if Goku and Vegeta aren't in it apparently, but dear god, it was just dumb. Watching Goku having to be told "you need to focus on the mental part" like he never trained with Roshi, Kami, or Whis and learned that lesson multiple times over. Can't wait to power scalers try to turn that gag scene of Vegeta """beating""" Goku into proof that he's actually stronger.

It was awesome when it was about Piccolo, The Red Ribbon Army, and Pan. Everything else just felt like "This is a Dragon Ball movie so we GOTTA talk about POWER 50 times and we GOTTA have Saiyans. Remember when you were 12 and you saw Gohan vs. Cell??? Remember how cool that was????

Wow, Dragon Ball really gets more and more similar to Star Wars.

Spoiler:

"Hey, remember how you used to like that? Here's more fanservice and what you totally wanted to see"

[Izanagi]

There is not a single line in the original manga of Vegeta ever saying this.

"I still fight to win...To enjoy it...To kill enemies...To puff up my pride."

And what the hell does any of this have to do with lacking "Saiyan pride"? Nothing at all, since Saiyans themselves aren't a family valuing people to begin with and its actually common for them in U7 to kill relatives like its nothing. It's like you're projecting your own morality into the series while ignoring the actual morality in the story.

Bardock, Paragus, and Nappa debunks this belief. No group of people possesses the exact same attitude, behavior, demeanor, and conveyance of emotion as each other. Everyone is different. Take Bardock, for example. He is a warrior who plunders planets for a living, but he exhibits camaraderie and care of other Saiyans. Nappa suggests bringing Raditz back to life until Vegeta shoots him down, and is horrified when Vegeta blows up one of the Saibaimen. Meanwhile, as much as Paragus abused Broli, he still loved him and didn't want him to be harmed. Even Raditz gave Goku several chances to join him before deciding that he's a lost cause.

The Saiyans are brutal and war-loving, yes. But you are wrong if you think they don't value camaraderie or warm relations with other Saiyans to some degree. Vegeta was just a real scumbag even by Saiyan standards, and didn't really seem to give a rat's ass about his own people in the slightest.

Did you even watch the Buu saga lol? It was because of Vegeta's pride that he was able to maintain complete freewill and Babidi was unable to have any control over him unlike Dabura. And cheating your way into power because you refuse to accept another person being stronger than you is exactly what someone who's filled with pride/hubris would do.

...And in the very same arc, Vegeta refuses to fuse with Goku, because to Vegeta, a true Saiyan doesn't rely on other people to get stronger.