Is Dragon Ball the biggest manga/anime series globally?

[Wrigglything]

I guess for Pokemon, people's perception aren't exactly helped with the international dubs being produced in an outdated and more loose form of adaptation, combined with corny voice work and jokes that would only appeal either to young kids or highly ironic anime fans, alongside the fact that they rarely show the original versions for international release which deters those who prefer an uncut version, so to speak.

Of course, those are small potatoes compared to the number of episodes in the anime and the fanbase just growing up and playing the games, not bothering with the anime as much, if at all. In the end, as mentioned over and over, the games are the main sell the franchise, with merchandising following suit.

But to get back to Dragon Ball for a moment, if the list is to be trusted, I guess one could say that. Then again, it might be due to the power of the fans that generation to help stabilise its popularity, even though the franchise had quite the gap between each of its main series. AMVs, Flash animations using Dragon Ball sound effects, the Western rise of popularity and its onslaught of video games helped make the franchise a viable property in the 2000s after all, to where a live action movie is made. No matter how much people hated it, it made Toriyama so angry that he became involved in Battle of Gods, and the successor, and we all know how that turned out thanks to Crunchyoll ratings and how well it performed. No matter the quality of the show itself or its competitors, I believe its simplicity might have helped the franchise become so engrained in pop culture. I have a feeling a random guy at least has heard of a Goku or a Kamehameha, for instance.

On the other hand, if you ask most young people, they'd probably be more familiar talking about Demon Slayer, Jujutsu Kaisen, Tokyo Revengers, etc., and find the franchise either too long and overwhelming or, in its worse case, boring or even outdated. Heck, the number of people in the younger generation in this forum alone could clue you in on this. It's box office is dominated by Demon Slayer or Jujutsu Kaisen, one of the biggest franchises right now. Plus the fanbase being stereotyped as power scaling freaks and near cult devotion towards Goku does not help matters. So it's hard for me to truly say that without hesitating or regretting it a little.

[Zephyr]

However, Pokemon didn't really define an entire genre

Neither did Dragon Ball. Comedy and fantasy martial arts were both quite established by 1984.

[DBZAOTA482]

However, Pokemon didn't really define an entire genre

Neither did Dragon Ball. Comedy and fantasy martial arts were both quite established by 1984.

I guess the countless content creators from various mediums siting Dragon Ball as inspiration for their work is just a fever dream then.

[VegettoEX]

I guess the countless content creators from various mediums siting Dragon Ball as inspiration for their work is just a fever dream then.

You really seem to have dug yourself into a preconception hole, looking for ways to bury yourself in, while others continuously throw ropes down to pull you out.

(I don't know if that metaphor works at all, but it's how I imagine you.)

Are you just completely unaware of all the other collect-a-monster franchises and games out there...? There was a lot of contemporary thinking/design going on at the same time as Pokemon (similar to, say, tournament shonen of the day), but Pokemon's influence is undeniable. Temtem alone as a direct parallel is massive, and that's to say nothing else of all the other influences and spiritual successor/knock-offs.

[Zephyr]

However, Pokemon didn't really define an entire genre

Neither did Dragon Ball. Comedy and fantasy martial arts were both quite established by 1984.

I guess the countless content creators from various mediums siting Dragon Ball as inspiration for their work is just a fever dream then.

Dragon Ball being influential is not the same thing as Dragon Ball "defining a genre".

[DBZAOTA482]

I guess the countless content creators from various mediums siting Dragon Ball as inspiration for their work is just a fever dream then.

You really seem to have dug yourself into a preconception hole, looking for ways to bury yourself in, while others continuously throw ropes down to pull you out.

(I don't know if that metaphor works at all, but it's how I imagine you.)

Are you just completely unaware of all the other collect-a-monster franchises and games out there...? There was a lot of contemporary thinking/design going on at the same time as Pokemon (similar to, say, tournament shonen of the day), but Pokemon's influence is undeniable. Temtem alone as a direct parallel is massive, and that's to say nothing else of all the other influences and spiritual successor/knock-offs.

Temtem isn't doing crazy numbers and all the other knockoffs went away as soon as they came.

Most of the Dragon Ball "clones" are highly popular and successful in their own rights, especially One Piece and Naruto.

It isn't just anime and manga either. Athletes were inspired by Dragon Ball. Video game developers were inspired by it (particularly Street Fighter and Tekken). It's influence is even felt with western animation (more story-driven cartoons came around since DBZ took the west by storm).

[jjgp1112]

(particularly Street Fighter and Tekken).

The first Street Fighter game came out in 1987 and began development when Dragon Ball was only a thought in Toriyama's brain. It's primary influence were the same things that influenced Dragon Ball to begin with.

[Kunzait_83]

(particularly Street Fighter and Tekken).

The first Street Fighter game came out in 1987 and began development when Dragon Ball was only a thought in Toriyama's brain. It's primary influence were the same things that influenced Dragon Ball to begin with.

Bingo.

I really should just make this gif my permanent avatar on here and be done with it at this point, huh?

However, Pokemon didn't really define an entire genre

Neither did Dragon Ball. Comedy and fantasy martial arts were both quite established by 1984.

I guess the countless content creators from various mediums siting Dragon Ball as inspiration for their work is just a fever dream then.

By this logic, so were the countless hundreds/thousands of movies, TV shows, books, and comics that inspired Dragon Ball. Those were all a fevered imagination as well then I guess: Dragon Ball invented and defined fantasy martial arts mixed with comedy completely from wholecloth and came from a vacuum because Toriyama is THAT much of a singular genius.

No one had ever read, seen, or heard of any of the works of Wu Cheng'en, Jin Yong, King Hu, Gu Long, Wang Dulu, Tsui Hark, Chor Yuen, Wong Yuk-Long, Ma Wing-shing, etc. Those were all completely invisible and non-existent for the entirety of the 20th century and had zero impact or imprint whatsoever on Asian pop culture.

Because as we all know, the anime and video games that Shonen nerds of the 2000s and 2010s are primarily into singularly define and embody ALL of art and media across the globe not just now, but for all of history past and present.

[DBZAOTA482]

By this logic, so were the countless hundreds/thousands of movies, TV shows, books, and comics that inspired Dragon Ball. Those were all a fevered imagination as well then I guess: Dragon Ball invented and defined fantasy martial arts mixed with comedy completely from wholecloth and came from a vacuum because Toriyama is THAT much of a singular genius.

No one had ever read, seen, or heard of any of the works of Wu Cheng'en, Jin Yong, King Hu, Gu Long, Wang Dulu, Tsui Hark, Chor Yuen, Wong Yuk-Long, Ma Wing-shing, etc. Those were all completely invisible and non-existent for the entirety of the 20th century and had zero impact or imprint whatsoever on Asian pop culture.

Because as we all know, the anime and video games that Shonen nerds of the 2000s and 2010s are primarily into singularly define and embody ALL of art and media across the globe not just now, but for all of history past and present.

Doesn't matter how you get to the pot of gold. All that matters is that you beat the leprechauns.

[Kunzait_83]

Doesn't matter how you get to the pot of gold. All that matters is that you beat the leprechauns.

What exactly is the "pot of gold" in this little analogy of yours, and who are the leprechauns?

[DBZAOTA482]

Doesn't matter how you get to the pot of gold. All that matters is that you beat the leprechauns.

What exactly is the "pot of gold" in this little analogy of yours, and who are the leprechauns?

The point is Dragon Ball became a basic template for many other works in the media. Doesn't matter if it wasn't the first of its kind, it still resonated with people in ways those other titles didn't.

Matter of fact, Dragon Ball wasn't directly influenced by Hokuto No Ken or Kinnikuman, which pretty much started the whole "Battle Manga" formula. He only went the battle manga route because Kazuhiko Torishima told him to.

Toriyama's main influences were Disney, kung fu, and sci-fi films.

[MasenkoHA]

.

Toriyama's main influences were Disney, kung fu, and sci-fi films.

Other than the general manga art style being inspired by old Disney movies (which is in no way specific to Toriyama) where are you getting Disney as a main influence? There's the Bibbidi Bobbodi Boo thing but other than that?

[Kunzait_83]

The point is Dragon Ball became a basic template for many other works in the media. Doesn't matter if it wasn't the first of its kind, it still resonated with people in ways those other titles didn't.

Dragon Ball primarily became the template for a bunch of Shonen manga that followed in its wake (like Naruto, One Piece, etc.), and a few other random odds and ends of anime/manga and probably video game media here and there. But... so the fuck what? Who gives a shit?

Is the point you're making that because DB influenced more media that (and I cannot stress this enough) you personally are familiar with (i.e. late 90s and 2000s Shonen manga/anime and some video games) that it is what, somehow more "valuable" in some nebulously vague way than anything else that influenced DB before it?

Yes, many Shonen manga authors in the wake of DB cite DB as being especially influential to them: yeah, again, so what? What about this makes DB inherently "better" in some generically non-descript way than other things that came before it? Or is "better" not even the right word for me to use here? What exactly is it that you're trying to express or gauge here?

Furthermore, since its primarily Shonen manga and anime that overwhelmingly cite DB as their main influence: what is it about Shonen manga and anime that makes them inherently more valued than other forms of media? Like books? Live action film and TV? Music? Hell, any form of comic book or animation (anime and manga, or non-Japanese entirely) aimed at people older than 12? What does DB being ruler of the roost among specifically Japanese comic books and cartoons for children mean exactly on a broader scale for broader forms of art and why should anyone who isn't into Japanese children's media as a broader whole even give two shits?

In short: what exactly is your point even supposed to be outside of "DB influenced a lot of other kids' comics and cartoons in Japan" (which means all of jack shit to anyone who doesn't give a crap about Japanese kids' media, which is like... a LOT of fucking people)?

Matter of fact, Dragon Ball wasn't directly influenced by Hokuto No Ken or Kinnikuman, which pretty much started the whole "Battle Manga" formula. He only went the battle manga route because Kazuhiko Torishima told him to.

And guess what? You know what manga/anime Torishima pointed directly to when he suggested that Toriyama go in a more serious/fight-focused route? Fist of the North Star. So yeah: Fist of the North Star was MASSIVELY influential on DB even if you think it all originally came from Torishima more than Toriyama: Torishima was using HnK as one of his primary examples.

Toriyama's main influences were Disney,

One random name pun reference in the very last arc of the manga-proper hardly counts as a "main influence". Like, at all.

kung fu,

any of the works of Wu Cheng'en, Jin Yong, King Hu, Gu Long, Wang Dulu, Tsui Hark, Chor Yuen, Wong Yuk-Long, Ma Wing-shing, etc.

Things I learned from this thread: Wu Cheng'en, Tsui Hark, Jin Yong, etc. are all a bunch of guys who are apparently most known primarily for their masterful cooking recipes and expansive baseball card collections and not some of the most important, groundbreaking, wildly popular, and generationally everlasting kung fu fantasy fiction across both Asian culture and the world in general.

and sci-fi films.

Totally not generic and nonspecific at all! Like saying "George Lucas was influenced by the action-adventure genre when he made Star Wars".

[jjgp1112]

Doesn't matter how you get to the pot of gold. All that matters is that you beat the leprechauns.

What exactly is the "pot of gold" in this little analogy of yours, and who are the leprechauns?

The point is Dragon Ball became a basic template for many other works in the media. Doesn't matter if it wasn't the first of its kind, it still resonated with people in ways those other titles didn't.

Matter of fact, Dragon Ball wasn't directly influenced by Hokuto No Ken or Kinnikuman, which pretty much started the whole "Battle Manga" formula. He only went the battle manga route because Kazuhiko Torishima told him to.

Toriyama's main influences were Disney, kung fu, and sci-fi films.

Torishima literally told Toriyama after the first arc to turn Dragon Ball into a dumbed down version of Hokuto No Ken

[Dr. Casey]

(particularly Street Fighter and Tekken).

The first Street Fighter game came out in 1987 and began development when Dragon Ball was only a thought in Toriyama's brain. It's primary influence were the same things that influenced Dragon Ball to begin with.

Street Fighter started development in 1984 (or earlier)? That's a surprisingly long development cycle for what seems like a pretty simple game.

[DBZAOTA482]

What exactly is the "pot of gold" in this little analogy of yours, and who are the leprechauns?

The point is Dragon Ball became a basic template for many other works in the media. Doesn't matter if it wasn't the first of its kind, it still resonated with people in ways those other titles didn't.

Matter of fact, Dragon Ball wasn't directly influenced by Hokuto No Ken or Kinnikuman, which pretty much started the whole "Battle Manga" formula. He only went the battle manga route because Kazuhiko Torishima told him to.

Toriyama's main influences were Disney, kung fu, and sci-fi films.

Torishima literally told Toriyama after the first arc to turn Dragon Ball into a dumbed down version of Hokuto No Ken

Torishima told Toriyama to go the battle manga route because the readership for Dragon Ball was declining. He never pointed to Hokuto no Ken specifically.

In fact, Toriyama went out of his way to subvert what HnK was doing.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Torishima told Toriyama to go the battle manga route because the readership for Dragon Ball was declining. He never pointed to Hokuto no Ken specifically.

In fact, Toriyama went out of his way to subvert what HnK was doing.

And Torishima would have never told Toriyama to go the battle manga route if it wasn't for the big popularity of Hokuto no Ken, that run concurrent with Dragon Ball, hence HnK is a direct influence even without the editor explicitely pointing torwards HnK.

[Kunzait_83]

Torishima told Toriyama to go the battle manga route because the readership for Dragon Ball was declining. He never pointed to Hokuto no Ken specifically.

In fact, Toriyama went out of his way to subvert what HnK was doing.

Its literally been stated flat out directly by Torishima himself.

M: Even so, how did you come up with the ideas behind organizing the story?

Torishima: I studied Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: Oh! Fist of the North Star?! That’s surprising.

Torishima: It was because the popularity of Dragon Ball had declined, so I had no choice but to study it. The most overwhelmingly popular series at the time was Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: That’s true, isn’t it?

Torishima: So I researched it and read up to 3 volumes of Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: What? To volume 3? Only up to that point?!

Torishima: You only need to read that much of Fist of the North Star to understand it. I didn’t care for it that much.

Matsuyama: Oh?! How can you say that?!

Torishima: Nah, it’s alright because it’s just my personal preference. I don’t like it. But Fist of the North Star was so popular at the time, so I read it carefully and studied it, and that’s how the future of Dragon Ball evolved. I decided the policies.

[DBZAOTA482]

Torishima told Toriyama to go the battle manga route because the readership for Dragon Ball was declining. He never pointed to Hokuto no Ken specifically.

In fact, Toriyama went out of his way to subvert what HnK was doing.

Its literally been stated flat out directly by Torishima himself.

M: Even so, how did you come up with the ideas behind organizing the story?

Torishima: I studied Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: Oh! Fist of the North Star?! That’s surprising.

Torishima: It was because the popularity of Dragon Ball had declined, so I had no choice but to study it. The most overwhelmingly popular series at the time was Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: That’s true, isn’t it?

Torishima: So I researched it and read up to 3 volumes of Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: What? To volume 3? Only up to that point?!

Torishima: You only need to read that much of Fist of the North Star to understand it. I didn’t care for it that much.

Matsuyama: Oh?! How can you say that?!

Torishima: Nah, it’s alright because it’s just my personal preference. I don’t like it. But Fist of the North Star was so popular at the time, so I read it carefully and studied it, and that’s how the future of Dragon Ball evolved. I decided the policies.

Whatever the case, if Toriyama was actively trying to make the next Hokuto no Ken, we'd be seeing a lot more hyper masculine muscular men as shonen protagonists.

Instead Goku was a boy who grew into a man both physically and mentally as the story went along, which was fresh and original for the time.

[MasenkoHA]

Torishima told Toriyama to go the battle manga route because the readership for Dragon Ball was declining. He never pointed to Hokuto no Ken specifically.

In fact, Toriyama went out of his way to subvert what HnK was doing.

Its literally been stated flat out directly by Torishima himself.

M: Even so, how did you come up with the ideas behind organizing the story?

Torishima: I studied Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: Oh! Fist of the North Star?! That’s surprising.

Torishima: It was because the popularity of Dragon Ball had declined, so I had no choice but to study it. The most overwhelmingly popular series at the time was Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: That’s true, isn’t it?

Torishima: So I researched it and read up to 3 volumes of Fist of the North Star.

Matsuyama: What? To volume 3? Only up to that point?!

Torishima: You only need to read that much of Fist of the North Star to understand it. I didn’t care for it that much.

Matsuyama: Oh?! How can you say that?!

Torishima: Nah, it’s alright because it’s just my personal preference. I don’t like it. But Fist of the North Star was so popular at the time, so I read it carefully and studied it, and that’s how the future of Dragon Ball evolved. I decided the policies.

Whatever the case, if Toriyama was actively trying to make the next Hokuto no Ken, we'd be seeing a lot more hyper masculine muscular men as shonen protagonists.

So true bestie, Dragon Bal never had masculine muscular men. Ever.

....

What show are you watching?