Are the Saiya-jin stronger than Piccolo in their base forms?

[Deus ex Machina]

And Shin sucks at power estimates.

Evidence?

Not to split hairs here, but it's fairly obvious Shin sucks at estimating peoples powers. He's scared shitless of Dabura, but didn't seem to grasp that SSJ2 Gohan was way more stronger.

[James R. Cadwell]

Not to split hairs here, but it's fairly obvious Shin sucks at estimating peoples powers. He's scared shitless of Dabura, but didn't seem to grasp that SSJ2 Gohan was way more stronger.

Kaioshin only appeared to be initially concerned that Majin Darbura would be a major impediment. He didn't know how strong Darbura was at that point, either -- he only knew that non-Majin Darbura was the strongest person in the Demon Dimension. So Kaioshin thinks a super-strong guy who's now a Majin might be an issue -- how does that show his "ki" sensing abilities are poor? He doesn't rant and rave about Darbura's power after seeing a demonstration.

[Xyex]

Flying requires Ki. Show me that Dabura didn't sense them flying in? That's all it would take.

So Piccolo uses less "ki" when flying than anyone else? Prove this. By the way, asking someone to prove a negative is fallacious logic.

Then you should quit doing it. Can you prove otherwise? That's exactly what you're asking, and all of your 'evidence' is subject too. And I didn't say that Piccolo uses less Ki to fly than the others, but just by attitudes and 'operation' styles it's obvious he as a strategic mind, he'd have kept his Ki as low as possible while flying. Goku and Gohan would have kept it down but not to the extent of Piccolo, and Vegeta don't give a damn.

Piccolo ASSUMED that Shin was stronger than him.

Prove that Piccolo was making an assumption. Quote/scene reference? When did Piccolo say "I was only assuming that Kaioshin had more power"?

Apparently you need to see the World Tournament again. It's never stated directly, but as you've refrenced several times, it's implied. And if you can use implied evidence (which is all you've got) then so can I.

He said that Shin was stronger than everyone.

When?

Shortly after his surrender, and after he learned for certain who Shin was. He told the other's who he was, and something along the lines of him being beyond all of them.

He backed out of the fight out of respect, even if he wasn't certain who Shin was yet, not because he wouldn't win.

That's your assumption. Piccolo only says that Kaioshin was much stronger than him. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, we have no reason to assume Piccolo was lying.

Again, take another look at that match. He never feels the actual extent of Shin's power. He merely recognizes the energy pattern and gains the feeling that Shin is in fact a Kai. He's mereged with Kami, Kami knows the energy pattern. You like to imply things with what you see so long as it suits you but tend to miss the obvious when it dosen't.

And Shin sucks at power estimates.

Evidence?

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura, Buu...

I highly doubt Pui Pui was even as powerfull as Freeza's full power. He'd be lucky to be that close.

Your opinion. Kaioshin thought it might be necessary to gang-up against Pui-Pui. Kaioshin also says he could have defeated Freeza with a single attack. You have never provided an example of Kaioshin overestimating another character's power level.

Common sense dictates this. He under estimates almost everyone and sereiously over estimates Kid Buu. Plus his memories of the past are no dobut skewed. All he sees with Pui Pui is the Majin power, which is tied quite tightly in his mind to Buu, and he's affraid. There's examples of this elsewhere in the series (and movies) with other characters.

And let's look at something for a second, shall we? What is Pui Pui? He's a mortal. Now, in everything we've learned about the universe during the course of Z Freeza was the strongest mortal for some time. Thusly Pui Pui's power must be lower than Frieza's. The Majin Power-up would not send him from weaker than Frieza to stronger than Cell if it can't do that to anyone else. The bulk of Vegeta's increase was yielded by his Transformation afterall. Shin was, as he was with EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, wrong about Pui Pui's power. Never once were we shown Shin being correct about someone's strength.

[Deus ex Machina]

how does that show his "ki" sensing abilities are poor? He doesn't rant and rave about Darbura's power after seeing a demonstration.

He witnessed Gohans transformation into SSJ2 at the tournament, and yet didn't seem terribly impressed. If Kaioshin could properly measure ki, he would've known that Gohan was much more powerful than himself.

[James R. Cadwell]

Then you should quit doing it. Can you prove otherwise? That's exactly what you're asking, and all of your 'evidence' is subject too.

I'm asking you to prove a positive -- not a negative. If you aren't clear on the difference, then I'll give you an example.

- "Prove that Piccolo is made of cheese" and "Prove that Piccolo keeps his "ki" lower than anyone else" are examples of asking someone to prove a positive assertion. This is not a logical fallacy.

- "Prove that Piccolo is not made of cheese" and "Prove that Piccolo did not have his "ki" lower than everyone else" are asking someone to prove a negative. This is a logical fallacy. You have indulged in this particular fallacy more than once.

Goku and Gohan would have kept it down but not to the extent of Piccolo, and Vegeta don't give a damn.

More assumptions. Where is it shown/stated/implied that Piccolo keeps his "ki" lower than everyone else?

Apparently you need to see the World Tournament again. It's never stated directly, but as you've refrenced several times, it's implied. And if you can use implied evidence (which is all you've got) then so can I.

Okay. Where is it implied that Piccolo was lying, and why would this indicate that Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin? (Hint: disproving evidence of one conclusion doesn't magically validate another.)

Shortly after his surrender, and after he learned for certain who Shin was. He told the other's who he was, and something along the lines of him being beyond all of them.

I checked the anime and didn't notice any quote like the one you describe. Piccolo does say that Kaioshin is beyond the other gods, but I didn't see anything where he unfavorably compares Goku/Vegeta/Gohan to Kaioshin. Can you be more specific?

Again, take another look at that match. He never feels the actual extent of Shin's power. He merely recognizes the energy pattern and gains the feeling that Shin is in fact a Kai.

Piccolo disagrees with you, since he steps out of the ring and says that Kaioshin is much stronger than him. Goku even repeats this later, when he's speculating about Kaioshin.

He's mereged with Kami, Kami knows the energy pattern. You like to imply things with what you see so long as it suits you but tend to miss the obvious when it dosen't.

How is it obvious that Piccolo could not sense the difference in power between them, when he states that he could afterwards?

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura, Buu...

What did Kaioshin get wrong about any of those people?

All he sees with Pui Pui is the Majin power, which is tied quite tightly in his mind to Buu, and he's affraid.

Like he was afraid of Majin Spopovitch and Yamu? Oh wait, he said they weren't an issue.

And let's look at something for a second, shall we? What is Pui Pui? He's a mortal. Now, in everything we've learned about the universe during the course of Z Freeza was the strongest mortal for some time. Thusly Pui Pui's power must be lower than Freeza's.

This is astonishingly poor logic. People who have never encountered Pui-Pui claim that Freeza is the strongest in the universe, therefore Pui-Pui must be weaker than Freeza?

The Majin Power-up would not send him from weaker than Freeza to stronger than Cell if it can't do that to anyone else.

Who says Pui-Pui was stronger than Cell?

Shin was, as he was with EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, wrong about Pui Pui's power. Never once were we shown Shin being correct about someone's strength.

You keep claiming this, but you haven't provided any evidence. Listing character names doesn't tell me anything.

He witnessed Gohans transformation into SSJ2 at the tournament, and yet didn't seem terribly impressed. If Kaioshin could properly measure ki, he would've known that Gohan was much more powerful than himself.

Kaioshin said that SSJ2 Gohan's power was amazing. Kaioshin also suggests that Gohan, Goku and Vegeta are the strongest people in the universe, so he was definitely aware of Gohan's power.

[TripleRach]

Common sense dictates this. He under estimates almost everyone and sereiously over estimates Kid Buu.

Where does he seriously overestimate Kid Buu? If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, he never says that Kid Buu is the "strongest". Rather, he only says that he's the most troublesome, because of his lack of reason.

I'd also like to note something about the argument that Piccolo would lower his ki more because he's "smarter". I wouldn't doubt that he's smarter in combat than Gohan, but Gokuu and Vegeta are both considered to be battle geniuses. Vegeta was quite easily able to pick up on the ki suppression trick during the Saiya-jin Saga, in fact. I really see nothing to imply that Piccolo would be "better" at it than either of them.

[Fuujin]

Where is it shown/stated/implied that Piccolo keeps his "ki" lower than everyone else?

Before Frieza vs Trunks fight, when everyone are gathering to fight Frieza, Vegeta tells Yamcha that he should "Quit talking, and lower his power." and that "That Namekian (Piccolo) did it already, he's not as much of an idiot as the rest of you.". Yamcha is then shocked to see Piccolo, so obviously the green guy masked his presence well.[/quote]

[oponok]

This doesn't prove that Piccolo is smarter than Vegeta or Goku. It proves he's smarter than Yamcha, which none of us have ever doubted in the first place. It in fact proves that Vegeta and Piccolo think alike.

[Xyex]

Who says Pui-Pui was stronger than Cell?

You've said it several times, or rather, implied that he's stronger than Imperfect Cell, simply by your logic. If Shin was right about his power in thinking that he alone couldn't take Pui Pui that means that he must at least be as powerful as Imperfect Cell, possibly even Semi-Perfect Cell. Why? Well, let's look at the facts. Non-Majin Dabura's power is beyond Shin, Non-Majin Dabura's power is at least equal to that of Perfect Cell, this means that Perfect Cell must be stronger than Shin. So, if Pui Pui is strong enough to actually give Shin trouble he must be close to Perfect Cell's power. Once again, you've missed logic and evidence.

Shin was, as he was with EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER, wrong about Pui Pui's power. Never once were we shown Shin being correct about someone's strength.

You keep claiming this, but you haven't provided any evidence. Listing character names doesn't tell me anything.

All the names I listed were people who he either over or under estimated the strength of. If you can't even see this it's no wonder you've missed other things.

Like he was afraid of Majin Spopovitch and Yamu? Oh wait, he said they weren't an issue.

Spopovitch and Yamu are Humans, Humans without Ki control, Humans that were weak to begin with. Shin knows how strong your average Human is, and it's obvious that with or without the Majin power no Human could ever be at his level. This is, once again, common sense.

Where does he seriously overestimate Kid Buu? If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, he never says that Kid Buu is the "strongest". Rather, he only says that he's the most troublesome, because of his lack of reason.

No, no, I'm not refering to the dub line. No, I'm refering to him freaking when Goku crushed the Potara Earing before fighting Kid Buu. Seriously, he was scared shitless that Goku would lose after he did that even though Goku had already shown that he was stronger than Fat Buu.

I'd also like to note something about the argument that Piccolo would lower his ki more because he's "smarter". I wouldn't doubt that he's smarter in combat than Gohan, but Gokuu and Vegeta are both considered to be battle geniuses. Vegeta was quite easily able to pick up on the ki suppression trick during the Saiya-jin Saga, in fact. I really see nothing to imply that Piccolo would be "better" at it than either of them.

Not what I meant. I'm not saying that he's nessacarily 'smarter' or 'better' than the others are. He's tactical, he thinks a lot more than they did. It's just the way he is. Yeah, the Saiya-jins are all combat geniouses, but Piccolo has shown several times that he has a more calculating mind. The Saiya-jins all seem to react to events, Piccolo tends to plan ahead kind of thing.

This doesn't prove that Piccolo is smarter than Vegeta or Goku. It proves he's smarter than Yamcha, which none of us have ever doubted in the first place. It in fact proves that Vegeta and Piccolo think alike.

But your missing something. Piccolo GOT to there with out being sensed. He had his power low enough coming in that Yamcha and the others didn't detect him. Vegeta seems to have but not the others. And again, this is an indication to Piccolo's forward thinking, that his power had already been supressed but the others hadn't yet.

I'm asking you to prove a positive -- not a negative. If you aren't clear on the difference, then I'll give you an example.

- "Prove that Piccolo is made of cheese" and "Prove that Piccolo keeps his "ki" lower than anyone else" are examples of asking someone to prove a positive assertion. This is not a logical fallacy.

- "Prove that Piccolo is not made of cheese" and "Prove that Piccolo did not have his "ki" lower than everyone else" are asking someone to prove a negative. This is a logical fallacy. You have indulged in this particular fallacy more than once.

I'm not asking you to prove that he dosen't keep it lower than others, I'm asking you to prove that Baibi and Dabura could see through Ki supression (which is, in fact, in feasable as Ki suppression does not mask Ki but reduces what the body releases, there by preventing detection of the other energy as it's not even being generated).

[James R. Cadwell]

So, if Pui Pui is strong enough to actually give Shin trouble he must be close to Perfect Cell's power. Once again, you've missed logic and evidence.

This isn't really great logic, though. Kaioshin is afraid of Darbura (unknown power level beyond his) and Pui-Pui (unknown power level possibly beyond his), therefore Pui-Pui is close to Perfect Cell's power level? Let me put it this way -- if someone is concerned about a 100 meter drop and a 10,000 meter drop, does that imply that both are similar distances?

All the names I listed were people who he either over or under estimated the strength of. If you can't even see this it's no wonder you've missed other things.

You're going to have to name specific incidents. Making vague references to events which may or may not have occured isn't a great way of debating.

Spopovitch and Yamu are Humans, Humans without Ki control, Humans that were weak to begin with. Shin knows how strong your average Human is, and it's obvious that with or without the Majin power no Human could ever be at his level. This is, once again, common sense.

You originally said that Kaioshin was afraid of Pui-Pui because he associated the Majin power-up with Buu. Now you're saying that Kaioshin wasn't afraid of Majin recruits from weak species, regardless of any mental association with Buu. Consequentially, Pui-Pui must come from a powerful species. Otherwise Kaioshin would dismiss him like he did Spopovitch and Yamu.

Explain how this line of reasoning is supposed to demonstrate that Pui-Pui is weaker than Freeza.

No, no, I'm not refering to the dub line. No, I'm refering to him freaking when Goku crushed the Potara Earing before fighting Kid Buu. Seriously, he was scared shitless that Goku would lose after he did that even though Goku had already shown that he was stronger than Fat Buu.

(a): Kaioshin said that Fat Buu was weaker than Buu's original form, so Goku's ability to fight the former doesn't really impact his performance against the latter.

(b): At best, Kid Buu and Goku were equal during their fight. It could have gone either way until Goku was exhausted.

(c): Goku did lose his fight with Kid Buu. He couldn't sustain the SSJ3 transformation and would have been killed without Vegeta and Fat Buu assisting as he formed a Genki Dama.

Goku fought a powerful opponent and lost (when only using his own strength). His eventual success depended on events which Kaioshin couldn't have been aware would happen. How does this prove Kaioshin is poor at sensing "ki"?

But your missing something. Piccolo GOT to there with out being sensed. He had his power low enough coming in that Yamcha and the others didn't detect him. Vegeta seems to have but not the others. And again, this is an indication to Piccolo's forward thinking, that his power had already been supressed but the others hadn't yet.

It proves that Piccolo and Vegeta can suppress their "ki". It also proves that everyone else can suppress their "ki" after realizing they should. Explain how this helps your earlier argument.

I'm not asking you to prove that he dosen't keep it lower than others, I'm asking you to prove that Baibi and Dabura could see through Ki supression.

- Darbura and Babidi could see through the "ki" suppression technique well enough to identify Kaioshin and Kibito. Nobody could sense Vegeta observing the Goku vs. #19 fight, even though he was apparently nearby. This demonstrates that a suppressed "ki" is not readily identifiable as a specific person. (or identifiable as a person at all)

- Darbura and Babidi could see through the "ki" suppression technique well enough to determine that there were three great energies that could help them revive Majin Buu. A suppressed "ki" is not a great energy -- that's the whole point of "ki" suppression.

(which is, in fact, in feasable as Ki suppression does not mask Ki but reduces what the body releases, there by preventing detection of the other energy as it's not even being generated).

Babidi and Darbura both have magic powers. Magic powers tend to defy logic.

[Deus ex Machina]

(b): At best, Kid Buu and Goku were equal during their fight. It could have gone either way until Goku was exhausted.

(c): Goku did lose his fight with Kid Buu. He couldn't sustain the SSJ3 transformation and would have been killed without Vegeta and Fat Buu assisting as he formed a Genki Dama.

Sorry, but this time I will split hairs, because I can't stand people saying that Kid Boo was weaker than Super Boo. Yes, I understand Goku was able to fight with Kid Boo much longer than he could with Super Boo, but this could be attributed to lots of things. Super Boo wanted to kill his opponents, while Kid Boo was happy to play with them a bit more. Kid Boo isn't as skilled a fighter as Super Boo, but still stronger. And their's nothing saying that Goku didn't become stronger after defusing.

And no; Goku did NOT fight evenly with Kid Boo at SSJ3. He managed to score a few hits, but after a few minutes of fighting Goku was totally beat, and Kid Boo haden't broken a sweat. That's hardly even.

And now to back up my claims:

"That little Majin Boo now is the very first, most difficult one, then? -- Elder Grand Kaioshin"

"Majin Boo, you are one dense guy, but your power, speed, and powers of recovery are all incredible! You're on a whole different level from all the Boos up to now! You're ridiculously strong!" -- Goku

I think there was a few more, but I think Goku's line said it plainly enough. You can say it makes no sence, you could call it a plot hole (or plot device) but the fact still remains.

[James R. Cadwell]

Sorry, but this time I will split hairs, because I can't stand people saying that Kid Boo was weaker than Super Boo. Yes, I understand Goku was able to fight with Kid Boo much longer than he could with Super Boo, but this could be attributed to lots of things. Super Boo wanted to kill his opponents, while Kid Boo was happy to play with them a bit more. Kid Boo isn't as skilled a fighter as Super Boo, but still stronger. And their's nothing saying that Goku didn't become stronger after defusing.

I don't think I said that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu. This is also somewhat off topic and debatable.

And no; Goku did NOT fight evenly with Kid Boo at SSJ3. He managed to score a few hits, but after a few minutes of fighting Goku was totally beat, and Kid Boo haden't broken a sweat. That's hardly even.

That's why I said "At best, Kid Buu and Goku were equal during their fight". This wasn't supposed to imply that Goku was stronger than Kid Buu -- it was supposed to imply that at his very best he could exchange blows with Kid Buu -- which is what I saw.

"Majin Boo, you are one dense guy, but your power, speed, and powers of recovery are all incredible! You're on a whole different level from all the Boos up to now! You're ridiculously strong!" -- Goku

Is this from the anime or manga? Didn't this happen during the SSJ2 Goku vs. Kid Buu filler sequence? I saw a fan translation of the relevant manga chapters and I don't remember anything like this quote -- but that was months and months ago.

[Deus ex Machina]

It happened in the anime, at the end of Goku's SSJ2 "warm-up" as you said, what's your point?

[James R. Cadwell]

It happened in the anime, at the end of Goku's SSJ2 "warm-up" as you said, what's your point?

It's filler which isn't consistant with the source material. In the manga, Goku implied that he couldn't even fight Fat Buu as SSJ2. In the anime, SSJ2 Goku fights evenly with Kid Buu and then concludes "HAY KID BUU YOU'RE THE STRONGEST BUU EVER!!!" In other words: it creates a plot hole which doesn't exist in the source material, so we should defer to the source material.

I'm pretty sure that the stuff about Kid Buu being the most "difficult" is canon, but it looks like TripleRach interpreted that as "troublesome" rather than "powerful".

[Deus ex Machina]

Grr...you make a good argument on the subject, and since I can't conclusively find manga evidence to support my claim, I can leave that alone. But anime filler is its own kind of canon; and since it also doesn't give any direct proof that Kid Boo is weaker than Super (Not going on comparing their fights, since it's variable) We can ATLEAST conclude that Anime Kid Boo is stronger, while Manga Kid Boo is debatable.

[Fuujin]

All DB volumes were released in Poland, so I can help you here. When Goku is about to finish off Buu, he says: "You're one incredible guy Buu... Alone you managed to do this much..." and the "I hope you'll come back to life" stuff.

And here's what the Kaioshin says about Kid Buu:
Dai Kaioshin: "So basically, this form of Buu is the primal essence of evil... The worst possible incarnation of Buu?"
East Kaioshin: "Yes... That's the real power of Buu, not restrained by anything... A creature without any self-control, existing for the sole reason of destroying all that exists."

[Izlude]

Well here's what I think....

-Saiyan Saga-
Vegeta >> Goku >> Piccolo >> Gohan (All Base Levels)

Vegeta >> Goku >> Piccolo(Dead) >> Gohan

Goku (Kaio Ken X4) >> Vegeta >> Piccolo(Dead) >> Gohan

Vegeta >> Gohan (Angry) >> Goku (Wasted) >> Piccolo


-Freeza Saga-
Goku (Kaio Ken X10) >> Vegeta >> Piccolo(Still Dead) >> Gohan

Vegeta (Healed) >> Piccolo (Revived) >> Gohan >> Goku (Healing)

Piccolo(Fused With Nail) >> Gohan (Very Angry) >> Vegeta >> Goku(Healing) >>

Gohan (Very very angry) >> Piccolo >> Vegeta >> Goku (Healing)

Vegeta (Healed) >> Piccolo >> Gohan >> Goku(Healing)

Goku (Kaio Ken X20) >> Piccolo(W/ Gohan+Krillin's Ki) >> Vegeta >> Gohan

Goku (SSJ) >> Gohan (Angry x3) >> Piccolo (Barely alive) >> Vegeta (Dead)

Goku (SSJ) >> Vegeta (Revived) >> Piccolo (Healed) >> Gohan

1 year later...
Goku (SSJ) >> Trunks (SSJ) >> Vegeta >> Piccolo >> Gohan


-Android/Cell Saga-
Vegeta (SSJ) >> Piccolo >> Trunks (SSJ) >> Goku (SSJ, Sick) >> Gohan

Piccolo (Fused w/ Kami) >> Vegeta (SSJ) = Goku (SSJ Healthy) >> Trunks (SSJ) >> Gohan

Vegeta (USSJ) >> Trunks (SSJ) >> Goku (SSJ, Training) >> Piccolo

Trunks (USSJ) >> Vegeta (USSJ) >> Goku (SSJ, Training) >> Piccolo >> Gohan (SSJ)

Goku (SSJ, Full Power) = Gohan (SSJ) >> Vegeta (SSJ) = Trunks (SSJ) = Piccolo

Gohan (SSJ2) >> Everyone


-Majin Buu Saga-
World Tournment

Gohan (SSJ2) >> Piccolo >> Kaioshin >> Goku >> Vegeta >> Goten = Trunks

Babidi's Ship Assult
Gohan (SSJ2) >> Goku(SSJ) = Vegeta (SSJ) >> Piccolo >> Goten = Trunks

Majin Buu Appears
Goku (SSJ2) = Majin Vegeta (SSJ2) >> Gohan (SSJ2) >> Piccolo >> Goten = Trunks

Majin Vegeta (SSJ2, Healed) >> Gohan (SSJ2) >> Piccolo >> Goten = Trunks >> Goku (Knocked Out)

Goku (SSJ3) >> Piccolo >> Vegeta (Dead) >> Gohan (Training) >> Goten = Trunks (Learning Fusion)

Super Buu Battle
Gotenks (SSJ) >> Gohan (Still Training) >> Piccolo >> Vegeta (Dead) = Goku (Dead)

Gotenks (SSJ3) >> Gohan (Nearly finished) >> Piccolo >> Vegeta (Dead) = Goku (Dead)

Gohan (Finished Training) >> Gotenks (SSJ3) >> Piccolo >> Vegeta (Dead) >> Goku (Dead)

Gohan >> Gotenks (SSJ3, Absorbed by Buu) >> Piccolo >> Goku (Alive again) >> Vegeta (Dead)

Gohan (Absorbed By Buu) >> Goku (SSJ) = Vegeta (SSJ) >> Piccolo (Absorbed By Buu) >> Goten =Trunks (Both Absorbed By Buu)

Vegetto (Base+SSJ) >> Gohan >> Piccolo >> Goten = Trunks

Kid Buu Battle
Gohan >> Goku (SSJ3) >> Vegeta (SSJ) >> Piccolo >> Goten=Trunks

Goku (Super Spirit Bomb) >> All

Next World Tournment
Piccolo = Goku = Vegeta >> Gohan (Super Dork) >> Trunks >> Pan >> Goten

And that good sir's, is my final standing.

[oponok]

Next World Tournment
Piccolo = Goku = Vegeta >> Gohan (Super Dork) >> Trunks >> Pan >> Goten

How does Piccolo become as strong as Vegeta and Goku, unless he fused with 13 other Namekians?

I really believe Piccolo trains much less because of his fusion with the peaceful Kami. There's no evidence that he trains that hard, anymore. He appears to have taken the roll of a teacher rather than a fighter.

World Tournment

Gohan (SSJ2) >> Piccolo >> Kaioshin >> Goku >> Vegeta >> Goten = Trunks

Trunks is actually stronger than Goten, but probably not by a significant amount... even though he was trained by one of the greatest fighters in the universe while Goten was trained by Chichi...

Other than that, it sounds mostly right.

[Izlude]

Hell I figured Piccolo would always train, just like always, I dunno, just seemed logical cuz thats all Goku and Vegeta do O_o

Has for Goten and Trunks, they were close enough in equal power I guess, although Trunks is a tiny tiny bit stronger ehehe.

I dont want to make a list like this for GT though! Eek's...poor Piccolo will be at the very bottom...

[Dayspring]

God, let this thread die. -_-