Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

[lansing]

It has been already explained countless times but just as a quick refresher.

1. The white isn't even white as vanner demonstrated.

2. Color chart can not be used on the Dragon Boxes without causing artifacts. So it pretty much makes them useless, even if they were accurate, which they aren't

3. No display showed those colors back in the 80s and 90s and yet we are supposed to take you word that the color chart is accurate.

Basically you need far more evidence than just that useless color chart.

What does any of these points you made have anything to do with the chart being accurate??? If you don't know how to use it, the problem is you, not the chart.

It by definition can't be accurate if no one ever saw these colors being displayed on screens at the time. You are here literally arguing that we should correct the Dragon Boxes to some colors that even modern displays have a hard time accurately showing. It's pure nonsense. Your method has more holes than Swiss cheese.

It's not me not knowing how to use them ,it's that they can't be and should be used with the material that we have. I know it must suck having spent all that money on a chart that has no value whatsoever but the reality is that it won't help color correct the Dragon Boxes one single bit. Which is what this thread is about.

What??? And you're talking about nonsense? lol. Your logic is nonsense.

[Someoneimportant]

What does any of these points you made have anything to do with the chart being accurate??? If you don't know how to use it, the problem is you, not the chart.

It by definition can't be accurate if no one ever saw these colors being displayed on screens at the time. You are here literally arguing that we should correct the Dragon Boxes to some colors that even modern displays have a hard time accurately showing. It's pure nonsense. Your method has more holes than Swiss cheese.

It's not me not knowing how to use them ,it's that they can't be and should be used with the material that we have. I know it must suck having spent all that money on a chart that has no value whatsoever but the reality is that it won't help color correct the Dragon Boxes one single bit. Which is what this thread is about.

What??? And you're talking about nonsense? lol. Your logic is nonsense.

Please walk me through how anything I just said was nonsense. I would love to hear it.

[Inkei9001]

They can't they are just anally devistated they wasted their money. If they actually thought this was a good idea they would be cc'ing the dbox instead of arguing with people

[Someoneimportant]

They can't they are just anally devistated they wasted their money. If they actually thought this was a good idea they would be cc'ing the dbox instead of arguing with people

It wouldn’t even bother me if he didn’t parade his method like it was the holy grail and keep endlessly cherry picking what to respond to or not really reading what others are telling him repeatedly.
Yet he keeps insulting people who have produced far better results and done something worthwhile. Nobody has to be a brain surgeon in this scenario to figure out which method yielded better results. His one example that he posted in this thread was full of artifacts. And he is basically going, “trust me bro, it’s accurate” Honestly, I have no time or patience for such a troll.

[lansing]

It by definition can't be accurate if no one ever saw these colors being displayed on screens at the time. You are here literally arguing that we should correct the Dragon Boxes to some colors that even modern displays have a hard time accurately showing. It's pure nonsense. Your method has more holes than Swiss cheese.

It's not me not knowing how to use them ,it's that they can't be and should be used with the material that we have. I know it must suck having spent all that money on a chart that has no value whatsoever but the reality is that it won't help color correct the Dragon Boxes one single bit. Which is what this thread is about.

What??? And you're talking about nonsense? lol. Your logic is nonsense.

Please walk me through how anything I just said was nonsense. I would love to hear it.

Your nonsense started here,
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1820#p1751032

Dragon Ball was broadcast in 480i standard def.

That points to the fact that animators did not intend to use colours that no existing display at the time would show as the final look.

Your colour chart can’t be accurate for that reason alone.

There is no causal relationship between the three sentences. This is just failed logical thinking.

There are literally hundreds of HD releases of older animations that has color correction that looks completely different from the original broadcasts. I wonder why is that? Could it be that the original broadcast not being the intended color? Or that it failed in reproducing the intended color?

The accuracy of my color chart depends on the equipment I used to digitize the color, it has nothing to do with the gamut range of SDTV, this is just nonsense.

[Someoneimportant]

What??? And you're talking about nonsense? lol. Your logic is nonsense.

Please walk me through how anything I just said was nonsense. I would love to hear it.

Your nonsense started here,
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1820#p1751032

Dragon Ball was broadcast in 480i standard def.

That points to the fact that animators did not intend to use colours that no existing display at the time would show as the final look.

Your colour chart can’t be accurate for that reason alone.

There is no causal relationship between the three sentences. This is just failed logical thinking.

There are literally hundreds of HD releases of older animations that has color correction that looks completely different from the original broadcasts. I wonder why is that? Could it be that the original broadcast not being the intended color? Or that it failed in reproducing the intended color?

The accuracy of my color chart depends on the equipment I used to digitize the color, it has nothing to do with the gamut range of SDTV, this is just nonsense.

That has NOTHING to do with color correcting the dragon boxes. You said in your original post when you brought that color chart up that your method was "a foundation to build on" yet your foundation is built on quick sand my dude. It is completely and utterly incompatible with color correcting the Dragon Boxes in any way. As few of your examples have painfully shown. You have failed to demonstrate how anything I've said was nonsense yet again. Even putting all this aside, I can also go into the fact that we have no way of confirming how accurate your equipment is , besides just to take your word for it, which I honestly don't think I will because you have no idea what you're doing.

[Someoneimportant]

Also I don't think I need to explain to anyone here (Besides Lansing I guess)how moronic it is to think that the original colors aren't accurate when Toei never even indented to reissue the show ever for home video, let alone HD. As it was being produced. So basically his argument is that Dragon Ball never had accurate colors. Even when it was brand new. lol. So I guess Toei just never intended for anyone to see accurate colors for this show.

Yet his gonna tell me and others that we make no sense. Fucking hell, why did I even bother replying to this troll?

[VegettoEX]

There are certainly better ways to have this conversation, folks. Please don't embarrass yourselves and the community by a slew of "goddamn fucking morons" over colors. Some of you folks already have account strikes issues (and/or are clearly just alternate accounts that we haven't felt like dealing with yet), so please don't give us more of a reason to do some digging and cleaning.

[Inkei9001]

Mr. Vegetoex, I say this with upmost respect because care. But if people a clearly alts(especially if it's someone with multiple permanent bans) or have multiple strikes then maybe it's time to not be so lienent and just drop the ban hammer with full force. Not just in this thread but forum wide. I know you are aware that outside of these forums and especially on discords kanzenshuu is seen as the anus of the fandom. And it's for a good reason. Multiple troll topics on the front page with people baiting and fighting long after even their op have been banned. Certain accounts given leeyway out the wazoo despite baiting after baiting and rule break after rule break and proving themselves to be hate filled aholes just so said posters wont be able to sling false hatred of minority allegations at you/the site. A thriving culture of toxicity and sometimes abuse. Known theifs of the community allowed to freely come prey on others. Lies spread freely because people are well known(such as the 16mm can't hold.4k worth of image quality that was thought of as truth here because of who started the rumor, until kineko disproved that).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. And I know you and the team don't have a ton of time because you're working on the wiki, but frankly a wiki that only a few sub fans will care about in the end won't be anywhere near enough to fix the reputation of this website that the forums being allowed to fester as a gaping wound that it is has cause. Only one way to fix that.

[lansing]

Please walk me through how anything I just said was nonsense. I would love to hear it.

Your nonsense started here,
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1820#p1751032

Dragon Ball was broadcast in 480i standard def.

That points to the fact that animators did not intend to use colours that no existing display at the time would show as the final look.

Your colour chart can’t be accurate for that reason alone.

There is no causal relationship between the three sentences. This is just failed logical thinking.

There are literally hundreds of HD releases of older animations that has color correction that looks completely different from the original broadcasts. I wonder why is that? Could it be that the original broadcast not being the intended color? Or that it failed in reproducing the intended color?

The accuracy of my color chart depends on the equipment I used to digitize the color, it has nothing to do with the gamut range of SDTV, this is just nonsense.

That has NOTHING to do with color correcting the dragon boxes. You said in your original post when you brought that color chart up that your method was "a foundation to build on" yet your foundation is built on quick sand my dude.

...
Even putting all this aside, I can also go into the fact that we have no way of confirming how accurate your equipment is , besides just to take your word for it, which I honestly don't think I will because you have no idea what you're doing.

So knowing the paint color used for Dragon Ball has nothing to do color correcting dragon ball? This is getting silly now.

It is completely and utterly incompatible with color correcting the Dragon Boxes in any way. As few of your examples have painfully shown. You have failed to demonstrate how anything I've said was nonsense yet again.

What does that has to do with the accuracy of the chart?

[Pride9000!!!]

What??? And you're talking about nonsense? lol. Your logic is nonsense.

Please walk me through how anything I just said was nonsense. I would love to hear it.

Your nonsense started here,
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1820#p1751032

Dragon Ball was broadcast in 480i standard def.

That points to the fact that animators did not intend to use colours that no existing display at the time would show as the final look.

Your colour chart can’t be accurate for that reason alone.

There is no causal relationship between the three sentences. This is just failed logical thinking.

There are literally hundreds of HD releases of older animations that has color correction that looks completely different from the original broadcasts. I wonder why is that? Could it be that the original broadcast not being the intended color? Or that it failed in reproducing the intended color?

The accuracy of my color chart depends on the equipment I used to digitize the color, it has nothing to do with the gamut range of SDTV, this is just nonsense.

Actually I do have original japanese broadcast recordings of og db and z the colours look pretty good and very accurate to cels https://i.imgur.com/Zq8SzOl.png The only problem is the format that they were recorded (VHS/betamax) in which is pretty low quality to get precise measurements. It's more like, ah so that's how it should look for reference. They're not ideal but useful. Here's a quick CC I use the broadcast as a reference https://imgsli.com/MTIzNzAw/0/1 https://imgsli.com/MTIzNzAx/0/1

[Someoneimportant]

Your nonsense started here,
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1820#p1751032


There is no causal relationship between the three sentences. This is just failed logical thinking.

There are literally hundreds of HD releases of older animations that has color correction that looks completely different from the original broadcasts. I wonder why is that? Could it be that the original broadcast not being the intended color? Or that it failed in reproducing the intended color?

The accuracy of my color chart depends on the equipment I used to digitize the color, it has nothing to do with the gamut range of SDTV, this is just nonsense.

That has NOTHING to do with color correcting the dragon boxes. You said in your original post when you brought that color chart up that your method was "a foundation to build on" yet your foundation is built on quick sand my dude.

...
Even putting all this aside, I can also go into the fact that we have no way of confirming how accurate your equipment is , besides just to take your word for it, which I honestly don't think I will because you have no idea what you're doing.

So knowing the paint color used for Dragon Ball has nothing to do color correcting dragon ball? This is getting silly now.

It is completely and utterly incompatible with color correcting the Dragon Boxes in any way. As few of your examples have painfully shown. You have failed to demonstrate how anything I've said was nonsense yet again.

What does that has to do with the accuracy of the chart?

Once again you have ignore every single point I made.

It is getting silly but not for the reason you think. I'm not gonna repeat myself for the millionth time with you. Others have tried too. I have already stated exactly what is wrong with your method and your chart, clear as day. Black and white. Clear as crystal. If you can't see problems with your method at this point and why it FUNDAMENTALLY does not work and you just chose to ignore everything others have already told you. Then nobody can really help you at this point.

I give up.

[VegettoEX]

One thing I want to add on the subject -- and forgive me if this has already been addressed (perhaps ad nauseam) -- but since the 0-255 values are being addressed, I think it's worth mentioning the standard 16-235 encoding for broadcast, correct? I wish I knew (rather, remembered from my AMV heyday) the whats and whys surrounding this, but I know my stuff always had to be re-encoded by the contest organizers to fit the necessary broadcast standard running in realtime MPEG-2 hardware like the Netstream cards.

So in this case, there wouldn't actually be a pure 0 white in usage, correct?

Mr. Vegetoex, I say this with upmost respect because care. But if people a clearly alts(especially if it's someone with multiple permanent bans) or have multiple strikes then maybe it's time to not be so lienent and just drop the ban hammer with full force. Not just in this thread but forum wide. I know you are aware that outside of these forums and especially on discords kanzenshuu is seen as the anus of the fandom. And it's for a good reason. Multiple troll topics on the front page with people baiting and fighting long after even their op have been banned. Certain accounts given leeyway out the wazoo despite baiting after baiting and rule break after rule break and proving themselves to be hate filled aholes just so said posters wont be able to sling false hatred of minority allegations at you/the site. A thriving culture of toxicity and sometimes abuse. Known theifs of the community allowed to freely come prey on others. Lies spread freely because people are well known(such as the 16mm can't hold.4k worth of image quality that was thought of as truth here because of who started the rumor, until kineko disproved that).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. And I know you and the team don't have a ton of time because you're working on the wiki, but frankly a wiki that only a few sub fans will care about in the end won't be anywhere near enough to fix the reputation of this website that the forums being allowed to fester as a gaping wound that it is has cause. Only one way to fix that.

I'm not willing to discuss the administration and consistency of action against specific user accounts. People widely make up their own stories anyway (all of which I've ever read are completely false/baseless), and there is not a single member of the administration or moderation team that sees a reason to waste more of our time entertaining their fantasies.

I'm also not concerned one iota what random folks are saying in random places. I'm concerned with the actual site that I pay the bills for every month, and I know that the legacy of Kanzenshuu as a website speaks for itself.

If you want to have a real conversation, we're glad to have you. If you see false information, attempt to correct it. If you see behavior that does not represent the spirit of the community guidelines, report it. If you want to make a scene, please spare us.

Thank you!

[johnny1132]

Your nonsense started here,
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1820#p1751032


There is no causal relationship between the three sentences. This is just failed logical thinking.

There are literally hundreds of HD releases of older animations that has color correction that looks completely different from the original broadcasts. I wonder why is that? Could it be that the original broadcast not being the intended color? Or that it failed in reproducing the intended color?

The accuracy of my color chart depends on the equipment I used to digitize the color, it has nothing to do with the gamut range of SDTV, this is just nonsense.

That has NOTHING to do with color correcting the dragon boxes. You said in your original post when you brought that color chart up that your method was "a foundation to build on" yet your foundation is built on quick sand my dude.

...
Even putting all this aside, I can also go into the fact that we have no way of confirming how accurate your equipment is , besides just to take your word for it, which I honestly don't think I will because you have no idea what you're doing.

So knowing the paint color used for Dragon Ball has nothing to do color correcting dragon ball? This is getting silly now.

It is completely and utterly incompatible with color correcting the Dragon Boxes in any way. As few of your examples have painfully shown. You have failed to demonstrate how anything I've said was nonsense yet again.

What does that has to do with the accuracy of the chart?

How can you be certain that the chart is still accurate at all? If the master tapes have degraded this much, who's to say that your charts haven't as well? There's also still the issue of actually using their data and applying to the Dragon Box footage. People before have shown that it just doesn't work.

[Someoneimportant]

There is no way to know. That’s the thing.

His method is so far out there and it is built on layers and layers of wild assumptions that I don’t even know where to begin. I can’t make heads or tails out of his reasoning as to why he is so convinced that he has unlocked the secrets of the universe with this. The only logical thing to assume is the cost sunk fallacy. He invested money into this, so he has to convince himself and others that it was justified.

Some quick bullet points.

1. He thinks the color chart is accurate or hasn’t faded itself over the course of time or that it is even the only one that was used or exists during the production. The film reels themselves and the cels have faded but somehow the color chart is immune to this? Never bothers to elaborate on why he thinks this.

2. He thinks that colors that are in the P3/rec2020 colors space that barely any modern tv can even properly reproduce is a good idea to use on a show that is animated in the 80s and 90s. A show that was produced using colors in the bt601 colors space. (Not even 30000 dollar professional PVMs’s and BVM’s exceeded rec 601 in the 80s and 90s) and at the time of broadcast DB was never intended to have a home release.

3. Then moves the goal posts and suggest that Dragon Ball never had accurate colors as it was broadcast and new. What???

4. Thinks his equipment is accurate which we have no way of knowing but we are supposed to trust him because…reasons?

5. Over the course of this thread suggested that his method is a foundation for color correcting the dragon boxes even though it produces result full of artifacts. Thinks we just don’t know how to use his method. lol

I just can’t with this any more. It is just full of nonsense. I hope everyone at this point sees why. Again, I don’t have a problem with people attempting different things but so far he has just been uber aggressive to anyone who has questioned him about anything. If he is going to call other people “clearly blind” then he should at least make a better case for his method.

[vanner64]

One thing I want to add on the subject -- and forgive me if this has already been addressed (perhaps ad nauseam) -- but since the 0-255 values are being addressed, I think it's worth mentioning the standard 16-235 encoding for broadcast, correct? I wish I knew (rather, remembered from my AMV heyday) the whats and whys surrounding this, but I know my stuff always had to be re-encoded by the contest organizers to fit the necessary broadcast standard running in realtime MPEG-2 hardware like the Netstream cards.

So in this case, there wouldn't actually be a pure 0 white in usage, correct?

This is pretty interesting and not something I had heard before. I would love to know more on this if you remember where you heard/read it from.
I do know that on the DVD and BD versions of DBZ, the white highlights of energy attacks for sure would reach 255 (or 252-255 range due to grain, but pretty much there). Do you recall anything regarding a shift/tint in white areas? If we say the brightness limit is 235, then we would expect a white area to read 235, 235, 235 for Red, Green, and Blue values. My issue with what has been presented is that the balance is out of whack, like the broadcast white would be 235, 232, 210 (just an exmaple given the limitation you presented, not actual values) for RGB which doesn't sit right with me at all since that is a creamy yellow color.

[Someoneimportant]

One thing I want to add on the subject -- and forgive me if this has already been addressed (perhaps ad nauseam) -- but since the 0-255 values are being addressed, I think it's worth mentioning the standard 16-235 encoding for broadcast, correct? I wish I knew (rather, remembered from my AMV heyday) the whats and whys surrounding this, but I know my stuff always had to be re-encoded by the contest organizers to fit the necessary broadcast standard running in realtime MPEG-2 hardware like the Netstream cards.

So in this case, there wouldn't actually be a pure 0 white in usage, correct?

This is pretty interesting and not something I had heard before. I would love to know more on this if you remember where you heard/read it from.
I do know that on the DVD and BD versions of DBZ, the white highlights of energy attacks for sure would reach 255 (or 252-255 range due to grain, but pretty much there). Do you recall anything regarding a shift/tint in white areas? If we say the brightness limit is 235, then we would expect a white area to read 235, 235, 235 for Red, Green, and Blue values. My issue with what has been presented is that the balance is out of whack, like the broadcast white would be 235, 232, 210 (just an exmaple given the limitation you presented, not actual values) for RGB which doesn't sit right with me at all since that is a creamy yellow color.

I do know that if you want to display video content accurately you would want your display and DVD/Blu ray to be set to limited range and not full range, which was mostly used in the PC world and not for broadcast. Otherwise you would have a video level mismatch between the player and the display, so black levels would either be crushed or washed out. Given the nature of Dragon Ball it was produced witg limited range in mind. 16-235. Instead of full range 0-255.

[lansing]

Please walk me through how anything I just said was nonsense. I would love to hear it.

Your nonsense started here,
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19448&start=1820#p1751032

Dragon Ball was broadcast in 480i standard def.

That points to the fact that animators did not intend to use colours that no existing display at the time would show as the final look.

Your colour chart can’t be accurate for that reason alone.

There is no causal relationship between the three sentences. This is just failed logical thinking.

There are literally hundreds of HD releases of older animations that has color correction that looks completely different from the original broadcasts. I wonder why is that? Could it be that the original broadcast not being the intended color? Or that it failed in reproducing the intended color?

The accuracy of my color chart depends on the equipment I used to digitize the color, it has nothing to do with the gamut range of SDTV, this is just nonsense.

Actually I do have original japanese broadcast recordings of og db and z the colours look pretty good and very accurate to cels https://i.imgur.com/Zq8SzOl.png The only problem is the format that they were recorded (VHS/betamax) in which is pretty low quality to get precise measurements. It's more like, ah so that's how it should look for reference. They're not ideal but useful.

SDTV had hard time reproducing brighter and darker/saturated color. The peach color skin would turn into yellow/red/white and the blue shirt on Goku would turn into very saturated blue.

[lansing]

That has NOTHING to do with color correcting the dragon boxes. You said in your original post when you brought that color chart up that your method was "a foundation to build on" yet your foundation is built on quick sand my dude.

...
Even putting all this aside, I can also go into the fact that we have no way of confirming how accurate your equipment is , besides just to take your word for it, which I honestly don't think I will because you have no idea what you're doing.

So knowing the paint color used for Dragon Ball has nothing to do color correcting dragon ball? This is getting silly now.

It is completely and utterly incompatible with color correcting the Dragon Boxes in any way. As few of your examples have painfully shown. You have failed to demonstrate how anything I've said was nonsense yet again.

What does that has to do with the accuracy of the chart?

How can you be certain that the chart is still accurate at all? If the master tapes have degraded this much, who's to say that your charts haven't as well?

Acrylic paint does not fade. I have brought multiple cels of the same characters from different sellers and they all still looked the same in turn of color.

You can also check out my database, I have brought two charts, a newer one and an older one with all the old color codes. I suspected them to be produced 10 years apart, yet when you compare the lab values of their equivalent color codes, they are basically still the same. For example, compare B-3 of the new one to B-5 of the old.

There's also still the issue of actually using their data and applying to the Dragon Box footage. People before have shown that it just doesn't work.

What workflow or how to use should be figured out by the users, not me.

[Someoneimportant]

So, in other words, completely unusable on the Dragon Boxes as I said initially, and many others have said over the course of this thread. It has nothing to do with “not knowing how to use them” Thus making the value of the color chart questionable at best, even ignoring all the other caveats. Thank you for admitting it at least.

It is only potentially useful if someone were to reanimate Dragon Ball from scratch using modern digital technology and only then one could use it and get a decent look of some kind with that method. But given what this thread is about it, It doesn’t serve much of a purpose. It is about as effective as trying to make Dragon Ball Z look like Dragon Ball Kai. It just isn’t going to happen without having access to the film reels. And nobody outside of Toei and Chrunchyroll currently has access to the full show in that format.