Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

I'm curious about people suddenly putting Beast Gohan and Cell Max above Granolah arc characters, and even above Black Frieza who one shotted both TUI and UE. I believe that when Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo appear in the manga, they will be scaled to the current levels of Goku and Vegeta, but there's nothing that really puts them above that level just as far as what we've seen in the movie is concerned. If it's the fact that Cell Max was said to be Broly tier and Gohan defeated him, Goku and Vegeta in the manga have long since surpassed that level (at least until Broly appears again). The movie clearly doesn't account for anything other than their Super Saiyan Blue forms, as not only was it written before the Granolah arc was made (before even Moro actually), but Goku can't even access UI at will in the movie. In the manga Broly and Jiren are not benchmarks since the Moro arc

That's why I have manga characters on a different power scale compared to the anime or the movie. You can mix the continuites to a certain extent, but you will end up with some spots that really don't justify their places because there isn't a solid basis for comparison.

[QuakingStar]

No, the Broly movie itself was a sequel to the anime's Tournament of Power. Goku could use SSBKKx20 at will and Vegeta could use Blue Evolved at will. Toriyama and Toei don't differentiate between being able to use a power at will or not because in the ToP's official promotional material they showed Goku as the strongest on the team and at that period of time UI Sign was already shown regardless of him not being able to enter it at will, while before UI Sign was shown it said Goku and Frieza were both tied. Broly has to lose control to enter his FPSS state yet his power is counted too. Now in the Broly movie they try to fight Broly as SSB and do absolutely nothing to him making them realize only fusion could help which is why they decided to skip their higher levels and fuse.

So the idea that the movie is only referring to SSB when comparing Orange Piccolo to them is wrong. Goku and Vegeta were just on earth 3 weeks prior to the movies events and this is stated in the movie. This means Piccolo knows how strong they are since he can sense them. This is also 2 years after the Broly movie which means that Goku, Vegeta and Broly also got much stronger. So at BARE MINIMUM Orange Piccolo is in the same tier as SSBKKx20 and SSBEvolved, while Gohan Beast is far above that seeing as how Cell Max who was thrashing Orange Piccolo could do NOTHING at all to Gohan Beast.

[picc]

If the Gamma's (who all this is scaling from) were meant to be as strong as SSBE and KKx20, they would have annihilated Gohan in his ultimate form, let alone piccolo in his. As SSB was essentially the default form for both, I think the Gamma's were being scaled to those forms. It's also just cleaner imo for Piccolo to be referring to blue as opposed to blue kkx20, which was rarely used in comparison. Just don't see Toriyama being that technical.

If the Super Hero movie does take place 2 years after the Broly movie (which I wasn't aware of), it obviously lends itself to their blue forms being stronger than previously. But I don't buy that the Gamma's were being scaled to x20 and evolution.

That may not be what you meant though. And I can see Orange Piccolo scaled to bluex20/SSBE as they appeared in the ToP, for sure.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong is everyone supposed to be by the start of Super? Goku can't be much stronger than in the Boo Saga if he's still weaker than Freeza in base, but he's also called the strongest (by Vegeta in the anime and Goten in the manga) and the entire second act consists of Vegeta having to please Beerus because if not even Goku can beat him then nobody can. The hybrids are often portrayed as slackers post Boo Saga and the kids even get rusty in YSG, but they seem to still be at their peak here. Piccolo makes a big deal out of them losing and even seems to imply Base Gotenks > Majin Buu despite him being weaker than Goku

The movie and the manga manage to be more simplistic with the latter skipping most, if not all comparisons, but I think Toriyama definitely wrote this movie with Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in mind.

[Goku9001]

How strong is everyone supposed to be by the start of Super? Goku can't be much stronger than in the Boo Saga if he's still weaker than Freeza in base, but he's also called the strongest (by Vegeta in the anime and Goten in the manga) and the entire second act consists of Vegeta having to please Beerus because if not even Goku can beat him then nobody can. The hybrids are often portrayed as slackers post Boo Saga and the kids even get rusty in YSG, but they seem to still be at their peak here. Piccolo makes a big deal out of them losing and even seems to imply Base Gotenks > Majin Buu despite him being weaker than Goku

The movie and the manga manage to be more simplistic with the latter skipping most, if not all comparisons, but I think Toriyama definitely wrote this movie with Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in mind.

Some inconsistencies are bound to emerge considering how Toriyama isn't as invested in the powerscaling as his avid consumers are and Battle of Gods is roughly 20 years after the End of Z. I think regardless of where you have the Base Saiyans, Goku absolutely has to be the strongest in Battle of Gods. In the movie, Roshi is flat-out shocked that Enraged Vegeta surpassed Goku. Vegeta completely loses all hope upon hearing how Goku had been defeated swiftly in two blows. Goku completely ignores Gotenks and Gohan and opts for a Gogeta/Vegetto fusion to fight Beerus.

The anime is far more explicit about this. Vegeta claims Goku is #1 and Beerus claims that Enraged Vegeta was even more entertaining to fight than Goku was which makes it clear that Goku was his 2nd strongest opponent. It also falls in line with Gohan being one-shotted and Gotenks being treated as a kid whereas Beerus at least wanted to savor his fight with SSJ3 Goku and two-shots him.

The manga is vague on this but since we're honoring Toriyama's intent, Goku and Vegeta should be the strongest in the manga.

[Kaboom]

It's kind of funny how the "base Goku is still weaker than Freeza" revelation meshes perfectly fine with the original manga version of the Majin Boo arc, but not the anime adaptation and its "Goku is always strongest" logic that the Battle of Gods movie and Super actually seem to follow.

It almost strikes me as a tidbit that Toriyama may have included in his bare-bones script and/or outline... which Toei kept but didn't actually adhere to, while Toyotaro actually did account for it.

[Berserker1921]

How strong is everyone supposed to be by the start of Super? Goku can't be much stronger than in the Boo Saga if he's still weaker than Freeza in base, but he's also called the strongest (by Vegeta in the anime and Goten in the manga) and the entire second act consists of Vegeta having to please Beerus because if not even Goku can beat him then nobody can. The hybrids are often portrayed as slackers post Boo Saga and the kids even get rusty in YSG, but they seem to still be at their peak here. Piccolo makes a big deal out of them losing and even seems to imply Base Gotenks > Majin Buu despite him being weaker than Goku

The movie and the manga manage to be more simplistic with the latter skipping most, if not all comparisons, but I think Toriyama definitely wrote this movie with Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in mind.

Wasn’t BoG supposed to take place 4 or 5 of years after buu saga? Could have goku and Vegeta both training during that time. Surpassing their children? Children who haven’t done anything during that time?

And maybe, just maybe, buu and other antagonists were not as strong as we thought. As goku’s base was still weaker than frieza?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think base Saiyans prior to reaching the realm of the god forms being lower in overall raw power than Freeza's full power is strong evidence in favour of higher boosts from the various Super Saiyan forms.

Lower boosts just don't make as much sense unless all the various villains that came afterwards were only marginally stronger than Freeza on after another.

You have a whole 30 times difference between base Goku when he fought Freeza to the start of BoG.

[TobyS]

How strong is everyone supposed to be by the start of Super? Goku can't be much stronger than in the Boo Saga if he's still weaker than Freeza in base, but he's also called the strongest (by Vegeta in the anime and Goten in the manga) and the entire second act consists of Vegeta having to please Beerus because if not even Goku can beat him then nobody can. The hybrids are often portrayed as slackers post Boo Saga and the kids even get rusty in YSG, but they seem to still be at their peak here. Piccolo makes a big deal out of them losing and even seems to imply Base Gotenks > Majin Buu despite him being weaker than Goku

The movie and the manga manage to be more simplistic with the latter skipping most, if not all comparisons, but I think Toriyama definitely wrote this movie with Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in mind.

Some inconsistencies are bound to emerge considering how Toriyama isn't as invested in the powerscaling as his avid consumers are and Battle of Gods is roughly 20 years after the End of Z. I think regardless of where you have the Base Saiyans, Goku absolutely has to be the strongest in Battle of Gods. In the movie, Roshi is flat-out shocked that Enraged Vegeta surpassed Goku. Vegeta completely loses all hope upon hearing how Goku had been defeated swiftly in two blows. Goku completely ignores Gotenks and Gohan and opts for a Gogeta/Vegetto fusion to fight Beerus.

The anime is far more explicit about this. Vegeta claims Goku is #1 and Beerus claims that Enraged Vegeta was even more entertaining to fight than Goku was which makes it clear that Goku was his 2nd strongest opponent. It also falls in line with Gohan being one-shotted and Gotenks being treated as a kid whereas Beerus at least wanted to savor his fight with SSJ3 Goku and two-shots him.

The manga is vague on this but since we're honoring Toriyama's intent, Goku and Vegeta should be the strongest in the manga.

Except Gohan and the kids have already started slacking and the kids don't use SS3 in the movie so there's no contradiction. You just have to think they have dropped as well as the others raised.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan one year later couldn't even access Ultimate at all so it makes sense that his Ultimate form is weaker in BoG than the Boo arc allowing for Goku to be stronger.

[Koitsukai]

I'm always confused about how much time passed between the Buu arc and BoG, not sure if it's 6 months or 4 years.

Anyway, it's still enough time for Gohan to start dating Videl - popping his own cherry, filling her belly with bones, and entering a whole new world of pleasure-, and start his downward path towards that lame SS Gohan we see in RoF. He uses Ultimate vs Beerus but then SS for the ritual, and while that could be a production issue, being weaker than Goku and later on barely stronger than babysitter Piccolo, seem to imply he was far from his Buu arc self. I guess that if he regain his FP so fast, he can also lose it fast.

Gotenks, I guess it's trickier. But being a fusion of two kids that started having other interests (Trunks "dating" Mai), could've rendered Gotenks not as fantastic as he used to be. I guess if Gohan can easily lose his edge, then the kids should too, they belong to the same race/species.
Fusion’s funcionality depends on the plot, and it seems the plot needed Goku to be on top again -to justify him getting SSG and not the others.

I don't think the gap between father and son at their peak was that big to begin with, so 6 months to 4 years for the tables to turn seems ok to me, with one of them trying to catch up and the other one trying to reach nirvana. It's plenty of time for the slackers to fall off the top and for the obsessed guy to surpass their current state.

Last time I scaled the Buu arc, I had:
Gohan 60,000 M
Gotenks 52,000M
Super Buu 50,000M
SS3 Goku 30,000-40,000 M

[QuakingStar]

Gohan one year later couldn't even access Ultimate at all so it makes sense that his Ultimate form is weaker in BoG than the Boo arc allowing for Goku to be stronger.

Goku couldn't even touch Beerus while Gohan could when using Ultimate, so I think he was still stronger. Besides SS Goku easily beat the mental copy of Cell who would have the power he had in Super Perfect state since Goku could sense his and Gohans power from King Kai's planet meaning SS Goku was far above SPC at the beginning of BoG, and SS Goku was confident facing the mental copy of Pure Boo aka Kid Buu.

If you consider his base power was 3,000,000 in the Namek Saga and his base in the BoG Saga pre-SSGod was supposed to be weaker than Frieza it means at most 119,000,000 would be the max Goku's base form could have been. This means from the Frieza Saga to the BoG beginning, Goku's base got almost 40x stronger.


Also Piccolo repeatedly refers to Gohans Buu Saga PU power as his original power, which Gohan then reawakens.

https://i.imgur.com/iIuJtPf.png



another intersting note is, PU Gohans power goes from his Buu saga level to Super Saiyan Blue levels just from training with Piccolo and in in less than 9 hours and 30 minutes.

https://i.imgur.com/AHWLwHL.jpg

[ZombieVito]

Gohan one year later couldn't even access Ultimate at all so it makes sense that his Ultimate form is weaker in BoG than the Boo arc allowing for Goku to be stronger.

Goku couldn't even touch Beerus while Gohan could when using Ultimate, so I think he was still stronger. Besides SS Goku easily beat the mental copy of Cell who would have the power he had in Super Perfect state since Goku could sense his and Gohans power from King Kai's planet meaning SS Goku was far above SPC at the beginning of BoG, and SS Goku was confident facing the mental copy of Pure Boo aka Kid Buu.

If you consider his base power was 3,000,000 in the Namek Saga and his base in the BoG Saga pre-SSGod was supposed to be weaker than Frieza it means at most 119,000,000 would be the max Goku's base form could have been. This means from the Frieza Saga to the BoG beginning, Goku's base got almost 40x stronger.


Also Piccolo repeatedly refers to Gohans Buu Saga PU power as his original power, which Gohan then reawakens.

https://i.imgur.com/iIuJtPf.png



another intersting note is, PU Gohans power goes from his Buu saga level to Super Saiyan Blue levels just from training with Piccolo and in in less than 9 hours and 30 minutes.

https://i.imgur.com/AHWLwHL.jpg

I only use the anime but even while on the movie he technically did touch Beerus, he did so from behind and instantly got swatted away. I don't think it means anything.

I feel like 90,000,000 (Maybe 100,000,000) is the max I would give base Goku during BoG. Beerus did say that there was no way he could beat Freeza in base so he can't be as close to him as you have him.

Gohan actually gets to SS2 tier training with Piccolo. It isn't until his solo fight with Goku that he breaks his limits and reaches SSB tier.

[QuakingStar]

Gohan one year later couldn't even access Ultimate at all so it makes sense that his Ultimate form is weaker in BoG than the Boo arc allowing for Goku to be stronger.

Goku couldn't even touch Beerus while Gohan could when using Ultimate, so I think he was still stronger. Besides SS Goku easily beat the mental copy of Cell who would have the power he had in Super Perfect state since Goku could sense his and Gohans power from King Kai's planet meaning SS Goku was far above SPC at the beginning of BoG, and SS Goku was confident facing the mental copy of Pure Boo aka Kid Buu.

If you consider his base power was 3,000,000 in the Namek Saga and his base in the BoG Saga pre-SSGod was supposed to be weaker than Frieza it means at most 119,000,000 would be the max Goku's base form could have been. This means from the Frieza Saga to the BoG beginning, Goku's base got almost 40x stronger.


Also Piccolo repeatedly refers to Gohans Buu Saga PU power as his original power, which Gohan then reawakens.

https://i.imgur.com/iIuJtPf.png



another intersting note is, PU Gohans power goes from his Buu saga level to Super Saiyan Blue levels just from training with Piccolo and in in less than 9 hours and 30 minutes.

https://i.imgur.com/AHWLwHL.jpg

I only use the anime but even while on the movie he technically did touch Beerus, he did so from behind and instantly got swatted away. I don't think it means anything.

I feel like 90,000,000 (Maybe 100,000,000) is the max I would give base Goku during BoG. Beerus did say that there was no way he could beat Freeza in base so he can't be as close to him as you have him.

Gohan actually gets to SS2 tier training with Piccolo. It isn't until his solo fight with Goku that he breaks his limits and reaches SSB tier.

I was able to narrow down just about how long he trained with Piccolo once he re-awakened his Ultimate State.

When they start training again after he gets his PU state back in Ep 88 it says there is 9 hours and 30 minutes until the ToP.

In episode 90 when he and Goku's battle finishes it says there is 4 hours and 30 minutes until the ToP.

https://i.imgur.com/tv8wOtW.jpg

Meaning Gohan literally went from his vs Super Buu PU level, to SSB levels of power in less than 5 hours. That's an insane jump in power from just training for less than 5 hours.

[ZombieVito]

I was able to narrow down just about how long he trained with Piccolo once he re-awakened his Ultimate State.

When they start training again after he gets his PU state back in Ep 88 it says there is 9 hours and 30 minutes until the ToP.

In episode 90 when he and Goku's battle finishes it says there is 4 hours and 30 minutes until the ToP.

https://i.imgur.com/tv8wOtW.jpg

Meaning Gohan literally went from his vs Super Buu PU level, to SSB levels of power in less than 5 hours. That's an insane jump in power from just training for less than 5 hours.

People complain about Freeza but Gohan is even more broken when it comes to power gains.

[QuakingStar]

I was able to narrow down just about how long he trained with Piccolo once he re-awakened his Ultimate State.

When they start training again after he gets his PU state back in Ep 88 it says there is 9 hours and 30 minutes until the ToP.

In episode 90 when he and Goku's battle finishes it says there is 4 hours and 30 minutes until the ToP.

https://i.imgur.com/tv8wOtW.jpg

Meaning Gohan literally went from his vs Super Buu PU level, to SSB levels of power in less than 5 hours. That's an insane jump in power from just training for less than 5 hours.

People complain about Freeza but Gohan is even more broken when it comes to power gains.

Well in Gohans defense, Toriyama meant for him to be this way. It's literally just Gohans character, he's basically the Anakin Skywalker of the series in terms of his potential and latent power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan is definitely an anomaly. Goten and Trunks should be at least as gifted as he is, but after being so strong in the Boo Saga they basically ran into a wall. At least Future Trunks was super strong… he’s a great example of how strong. I could even buy him creating that Genki Dama if he at least had seen one before.

Broly still manages to outdo Gohan though. In real life he took what, 30 minutes to surpass SSJB? That’s like 30 seconds in DB time. Even before SSJ he was still on SSJB Goku’s league. Gohan would have his hands full with him.


Back to my own question, I think Kaboom is definitely up to something by attributing the Gokuism to Toei, AT had just reread the manga for the movie so I doubt he had Boo Saga Goku > Gohan in mind, but it is what it is. The half bloods being rusty is definitely implied, but given how strong Goten and Trunks were naturally I doubt they could get that weak. Gohan is also tricky, even if he is rusty he was still stronger than Piccolo at least. I’m not sure if SSJ3 Goku is 50x stronger than Piccolo.

I don’t think Gohan ever laid a finger on Beerus. In the manga we just see Beerus yeeting him away and in the anime I think he just KO’s Gohan by throwing Boo’s ass on him.

[QuakingStar]

Gohan is definitely an anomaly. Goten and Trunks should be at least as gifted as he is, but after being so strong in the Boo Saga they basically ran into a wall. At least Future Trunks was super strong… he’s a great example of how strong. I could even buy him creating that Genki Dama if he at least had seen one before.

Broly still manages to outdo Gohan though. In real life he took what, 30 minutes to surpass SSJB? That’s like 30 seconds in DB time. Even before SSJ he was still on SSJB Goku’s league. Gohan would have his hands full with him.


Back to my own question, I think Kaboom is definitely up to something by attributing the Gokuism to Toei, AT had just reread the manga for the movie so I doubt he had Boo Saga Goku > Gohan in mind, but it is what it is. The half bloods being rusty is definitely implied, but given how strong Goten and Trunks were naturally I doubt they could get that weak. Gohan is also tricky, even if he is rusty he was still stronger than Piccolo at least. I’m not sure if SSJ3 Goku is 50x stronger than Piccolo.

I don’t think Gohan ever laid a finger on Beerus. In the manga we just see Beerus yeeting him away and in the anime I think he just KO’s Gohan by throwing Boo’s ass on him.

Brolys base form hit a wall against SS Vegeta after gaining an edge on SS Vegeta, his Wrath State which at bare minimum made him 10x stronger than even that and then enabled him to grow even further capped when he was fighting SSB Goku, he was then losing and even Frieza and Paragus could see it. Broly then went SS, then he fought Gogeta SS and again hit a cap and was losing, he then went FPSS and got the edge again.. then Gogeta went SSB and that was all she wrote, Broly hit a cap with FPSS and didn't grow any stronger after that. It was directly implied that controlling his forms and training are the only ways for him to get stronger from that point so their situations aren't quite the same. Goten and Trunks can't even go SS2, only Gotenks can for some reason while within a year Gohan not only got SS but also SS2. Goten and Trunks had SS since at least age 7 and 8 but only because of S Cells, and they remained only having SS. Potential wise as Half Saiyans they have more than Goku and Vegeta, but as individuals Gohan is still far above them. Nobody yet has shown training growth like Gohan has, to go from his vs Super Buu level of power which was farrrrrrrrr below BoG SSG Goku, to Super Saiyan Blue levels of power has been unmatched so far, it was literally under 5 hours. If both Broly and Gohan went into the time chamber for a year now I am positive that though Broly would be close Gohan would still come out stronger. Gohan is the "chosen one" and Broly is saiyan Mutant, the Legendary Saiyan of U7. Not to mention, in the manga Gohan had gotten back to his vs Super Buu levels of power before the ToP started, then in less than 45 minutes he grew to equal SS Kefla who was FPSS Kale x SS Caulifla.. while FPSS Kale alone was strong enough to pose a challenge to PSSB Goku and even had Goku struggling to block her attack. So Gohan in the manga reached SSB levels of power from his vs Super Buu levels of power in under 45 minutes, and that is essentially Gohans base form, as the Manga and Toriyama treat his potential being released as simply a base form hence him telling people he didn't want to use SS with it as he wanted to evolve as his own person.

From training gains and latent power and potential Broly is most definitely closer to Gohan than anybody else.

I would still put Gohan at the top, then Broly.

[ZombieVito]

Toriyama views Ultimate Gohan has a transformation. It works like that in Super Hero.

[QuakingStar]

Toriyama views Ultimate Gohan has a transformation. It works like that in Super Hero.

In the manga and anime Gohan literally tells Kefla he won't go SS with it because he chooses not to as he wants to evolve as his own person, and in the anime when Goku and Frieza ask him why he doesn't transform he says he is aiming for an Ultimate form that nobody has ever seen basically(now he's got Gohan Beast, what a coincence). So Gohan can AGAIN transform into a SS on top of his Potential Unleashed, he just chooses not to. I think in reality they were planning on giving Gohan a form of his own and that's the real reason they didn't want him to do so.