Super's growth in power was lackluster
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Super's growth in power was lackluster
They could have give us gradual and logical growth in power instead of a new hair dye &/ body recolouring transformations every saga.
1) Goku and Vegeta should have only attain Super Saiyan Blue during the climax of the Future Trunks Arc. Jiren was better as Mastered SSB tier opponent, and Ultra Instinct Sign could be introduced against moro, and Ultra Instinct could fit against Gas.
2) Gohan should have been stated to retain at least 40% of his Ultimate form's peak in power when Resurrection 'F' happened, and to reattain his prime during a battle during the Goku Black conflict.
3) Majin Buu must have been utilised all the way and shown to be as twice as string as he was against Kid Buu while in the Champa Arc.
4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.
5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
6) Android 17 should be much weaker than Piccolo, as he does nothing. Also, Android 18 should be only slightly stronger than her prime as she didn't do anything that will place her above Majin Vegeta out of the blue.
7) Goten and modern Trunks, despite being created to milk more money from "uoh, ha!! Saiyans?!", should be 30% stronger than what they were in DBZ. They were written out for a reason, they lack anything of interest or pleasure to the writer and the audience.
8 ) The absurdity of Frieza's renewed strength could have been acceptable if he was revived during the year after the Cell Games alongside his father and spent ALL these years training with him to achieve his Golden Frieza form. Tagoma and Shisami should be as strong as Cell initially was - that's still a huge leap from Zarbon's tier; and Sorbet could have been stronger than them initially (to explain why they followed him around and did not overthrew him when he was bossing them around), but later easily surpassed and left in the Android 19 tier.
1) Goku and Vegeta should have only attain Super Saiyan Blue during the climax of the Future Trunks Arc. Jiren was better as Mastered SSB tier opponent, and Ultra Instinct Sign could be introduced against moro, and Ultra Instinct could fit against Gas.
2) Gohan should have been stated to retain at least 40% of his Ultimate form's peak in power when Resurrection 'F' happened, and to reattain his prime during a battle during the Goku Black conflict.
3) Majin Buu must have been utilised all the way and shown to be as twice as string as he was against Kid Buu while in the Champa Arc.
4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.
5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
6) Android 17 should be much weaker than Piccolo, as he does nothing. Also, Android 18 should be only slightly stronger than her prime as she didn't do anything that will place her above Majin Vegeta out of the blue.
7) Goten and modern Trunks, despite being created to milk more money from "uoh, ha!! Saiyans?!", should be 30% stronger than what they were in DBZ. They were written out for a reason, they lack anything of interest or pleasure to the writer and the audience.
8 ) The absurdity of Frieza's renewed strength could have been acceptable if he was revived during the year after the Cell Games alongside his father and spent ALL these years training with him to achieve his Golden Frieza form. Tagoma and Shisami should be as strong as Cell initially was - that's still a huge leap from Zarbon's tier; and Sorbet could have been stronger than them initially (to explain why they followed him around and did not overthrew him when he was bossing them around), but later easily surpassed and left in the Android 19 tier.
- PrinceVegetto
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
I agree with you. Although, to be fair, SSB was created before Super for Movie 15. But regardless, the new forms/power-ups haven't felt organic if we compare them to the franchise's predecessors (including GT).
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
They could have delayed it while retelling the story in the anime format.
Also, (9) I believe that Future Trunks should have been roughly equal to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan from Z while Trunks is in Super Saiyan 2. There should not be any chance for him to hold off BOTH Goku Black and Zamasu on his own to buy Vegeta and Goku "some time of retreat in the present".
No "ikari" form toys can justify this bullcrap.
Also, (9) I believe that Future Trunks should have been roughly equal to Mystic/Ultimate Gohan from Z while Trunks is in Super Saiyan 2. There should not be any chance for him to hold off BOTH Goku Black and Zamasu on his own to buy Vegeta and Goku "some time of retreat in the present".
No "ikari" form toys can justify this bullcrap.
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
That's an interesting thought by proposing that Goku should have perfected Ultra Instinct during his battle with Gas. The narrative implications are there are actually pretty interesting. Whis' statement would make far more sense if it was in reference to Goku's Ultra Instinct Sign. He reveals that Goku had not mastered Ultra Instinct and uses far too much stamina which complements the weaknesses of Ultra Instinct Sign very well. It's always been odd to me that Goku mastered his Ultra Instinct yet he still has a bunch of weaknesses associated with it. Goku spending the Granola arc honing his own mastery of Ultra Instinct and applying it to his lower forms before perfecting Ultra Instinct as a representation of his own unique form of Ultra Instinct would be a more sensible narrative.
The caveat is how this undermines Goku learning how to apply UI to his lower forms, but that seems to be the direction Toyo is going with it.
The caveat is how this undermines Goku learning how to apply UI to his lower forms, but that seems to be the direction Toyo is going with it.
- batistabus
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're getting at, but I actually think the progression is more drawn out than the original series. Goku attained Super Saiyan and had mastered it by the next arc. Gohan achieved SS2 the same arc he achieved the first level. Super Saiyan 3 came out of nowhere.
Blue, as well as God to a less extent, was developed from RoF through U6, Future Trunks, and into the ToP (for Vegeta). Whis started teaching the principals of MnG in RoF, and although Goku can now tap into the form at will (which he couldn't do in Broly and only did at the very end of Moro), he still hasn't mastered it.
Blue, as well as God to a less extent, was developed from RoF through U6, Future Trunks, and into the ToP (for Vegeta). Whis started teaching the principals of MnG in RoF, and although Goku can now tap into the form at will (which he couldn't do in Broly and only did at the very end of Moro), he still hasn't mastered it.
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
Tbh I really love how SSB was relevant for many arcs. If this was DBZ, they would've introduced a new SS transformation every arc. What I do dislike is that Beerus is a moving goal post of power. This means that 1) No threat would really harm U7 if Beerus is around 2) and Goku's powerups make it seem like he's still as close to Beerus as he did in BoG. Another thing I dislike is the unnecessary forms (Beast, Orange Piccolo, SSRage, Green Haired SS, Wrathful, Manga SSBlue Evolved) which could've been easily substituted for normal power jumps or different story changes.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.
This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.
These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.
5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
I see that u live well with getting shitty hair/body color swappings every anime saga in Dragon Ball Super:BagetaSama wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:00 pmGoku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.
This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.
These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.
5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
1. Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.
2. "Saiyan Beyond God" (an invisible transformation to use God ki to justify the selling of toys at the time), Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza in Resurrection 'F'.
3. Kaioken stacked on SSB in the Champa Saga.
4. Super Saiyan Rosé, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan "Rage" (the king of lame DBS color swappins) in the Future Trunks Saga.
5. True Golden Frieza, Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction mode Toppo (basically Ultra Ego) AND Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the Tournament of Power.
6. Wrathful form for Broly.
7. Nowadays, we got Ultra Ego for Vegeta, "True" Ultra Instinct and the now revealed "Black Frieza" in the manga.
8. Gohan Beast, Potential Unlocked Piccolo and Orange Piccolo in DBS: Super Hero.
If u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.
And about Piccolo and the Human Z-Fighters - it's a Power Scaling thread, in case u haven't noticed. These feats do matter.
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
Obviously I do not "live well" with it, I explained that I reject that this is the case in the first place, not that I like it. But you're clearly not acting in good faith if you're going to characterize it this way
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
2-4 are variants of transformations that won’t read as distinct for anyone but “mindless fans” here for form-counting. Several among your list are transformations for villains—Saiyan or otherwise, it’s about as relevant as tossing all of Freeza, Cell or Boo’s onto a list of exhaustive transformations in the original DB.Geraldo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pmI see that u live well with getting shitty hair/body color swappings every anime saga in Dragon Ball Super:BagetaSama wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:00 pmGoku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.
This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.
These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?4) Piccolo must have been shown surpassing Super Buu in the Tournament of Power.
5) The Human Z-Fighters, as of the moro conflict, should be at least four times stronger than what Frieza was on Namek at his final form.
1. Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.
2. "Saiyan Beyond God" (an invisible transformation to use God ki to justify the selling of toys at the time), Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza in Resurrection 'F'.
3. Kaioken stacked on SSB in the Champa Saga.
4. Super Saiyan Rosé, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan "Rage" (the king of lame DBS color swappins) in the Future Trunks Saga.
5. True Golden Frieza, Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction mode Toppo (basically Ultra Ego) AND Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the Tournament of Power.
6. Wrathful form for Broly.
7. Nowadays, we got Ultra Ego for Vegeta, "True" Ultra Instinct and the now revealed "Black Frieza" in the manga.
8. Gohan Beast, Potential Unlocked Piccolo and Orange Piccolo in DBS: Super Hero.
If u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.
And about Piccolo and the Human Z-Fighters - it's a Power Scaling thread, in case u haven't noticed. These feats do matter.
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
I don't buy merchandise and only a fan of one or two forms in DBS but the target audience probably doesn't mind them especially if it's the first time they've seen these types of transformations. I try to look on the bright side that they would become less frequent as they run out of different colors to use.
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
I had the hunch someone who hasn't read it throughly will say: "but those are villains' transformations you're counting; What about the forms of Frieza, Cell and Majin Buu from Z?"... Well, guess what, I was talking about lame color swappins and as far as I know Golden Frieza and Super Saiyan Rosé are such.Cipher wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:05 am2-4 are variants of transformations that won’t read as distinct for anyone but “mindless fans” here for form-counting. Several among your list are transformations for villains—Saiyan or otherwise, it’s about as relevant as tossing all of Freeza, Cell or Boo’s onto a list of exhaustive transformations in the original DB.Geraldo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:41 pmI see that u live well with getting shitty hair/body color swappings every anime saga in Dragon Ball Super:BagetaSama wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:00 pm
Goku and Vegeta in the Broly movie were on their fifth consecutive arc of having SSB as their most powerful available transformation, Gohan didn't gain any new forms in those six arcs that didn't have in DBZ, neither did anyone else of the main cast. They didn't get any new transformations for the overwhelming majority of the series. This characterization of the power progression in the series is completely at odds with the facts of the matter.
This would be the equivalent of Goku still using SSJ for the entirety of the Buu arc as his strongest transformation, and then having two more arcs after that, where he only briefly gained SSJ2 in the first arc after the Buu arc, before losing access to it.(Ultra Instinct equivalent. ) But otherwise using SSJ for the conclusion of the 2nd arc removed from the Buu arc.
These two are completely arbitrary quantifications that have no tangible impact on the story whatsoever?
1. Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods.
2. "Saiyan Beyond God" (an invisible transformation to use God ki to justify the selling of toys at the time), Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza in Resurrection 'F'.
3. Kaioken stacked on SSB in the Champa Saga.
4. Super Saiyan Rosé, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan "Rage" (the king of lame DBS color swappins) in the Future Trunks Saga.
5. True Golden Frieza, Ultra Instinct Sign and Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction mode Toppo (basically Ultra Ego) AND Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the Tournament of Power.
6. Wrathful form for Broly.
7. Nowadays, we got Ultra Ego for Vegeta, "True" Ultra Instinct and the now revealed "Black Frieza" in the manga.
8. Gohan Beast, Potential Unlocked Piccolo and Orange Piccolo in DBS: Super Hero.
If u can live with being thought of a mindless fan who's here for flashy recolorings and buying them as toys, then admit it. Don't come picking fights with people who wish to get a high quality product.
And about Piccolo and the Human Z-Fighters - it's a Power Scaling thread, in case u haven't noticed. These feats do matter.
They better dismiss this while they're ahead. I don't need a "Super Saiyan Green" in my life.Skar wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:49 amI don't buy merchandise and only a fan of one or two forms in DBS but the target audience probably doesn't mind them especially if it's the first time they've seen these types of transformations. I try to look on the bright side that they would become less frequent as they run out of different colors to use.
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
It was supposed to be just a green tint (Broly lacks the tint in his subsequent movies), but it's so iconic that they just color it green in most midia. So yeah, Super Saiyan Green is indeed a thing for a whiiiile now.
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
As is SSJ purple now. Piccolo got to orange before the Saiyans did, which shocks me. That's just about everything unless we get very specific tones like lavender or Super Saiyan Periwinkle. Other than that, i'm waiting for SSJ Rainbow still or SSJ Aurora. Maybe SSJ Brown will be a thing.Thani wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:17 pmIt was supposed to be just a green tint (Broly lacks the tint in his subsequent movies), but it's so iconic that they just color it green in most midia. So yeah, Super Saiyan Green is indeed a thing for a whiiiile now.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
If that's the case, they can bring back these forms for Vegeta and Gogeta
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Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
The power growth up to the ToP was fine. Goku shot past the Hakaishin but not in a permanent way that left him room to grow. The following material, particularly the Manga, keeping him stuck nebulously under Beerus despite him completing and advancing UI is completely ridiculous.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
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Re: Super's growth in power was lackluster
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